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The Almas

johnnyboy1968

Gone But Not Forgotten
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Story and photos here

Siberian scientists say they have a discovery on their hands which raises the possibility that the local legend of the yeti - the abominable snowman - is more than mere fiction.
According to Russian TV, the well-preserved furry limb of a mystery creature was found some 3,500 metres up in the permafrost of the Altay mountains, in Russia's remote Siberia region.

"I turned the limb over and examined the sole of the foot, and I thought it looked unsual," Sergey Semenov, the mountain-climber who made the find, said.

"So I decided to bring it back with me."

Scientific tests and X-rays show that the bones are several thousand years old, but attempts to identify the creature they belonged to remain inconclusive.

Dunno what to make of this - the picture of the foot doesn't look particularly human to me. It seems to have claws (though they could just be matted hair). I'm no zoologist, but could it be a bear's paw? I'm sure I've heard somwhere that bears can leave human-like prints so there may be a similarity.

On the other hand, the x-rays, assuming they're of the foot itself and not some BBC library shot, looks pretty convincing. What do you all think? Maybe Beckjord's planning an expedition right now!
 
Yes, the x-ray photo of the foot (if that's what it is) is intruiging, whilst the photo of the foot looks more animal-like because of the claws.
 
If there's any shred of truth to this, it's absolutely fascinating. The actual foot reminds me more of a panther's paw than anything else, but the x-ray (if it IS indeed an x-ray of the paw in question) is amazingly human-like.

For me the real questions are: A) Can the foot of any mammal remain preserved in such a state for "thousands" of years? and B) Where's the rest of it??
 
Can the foot of any mammal remain preserved in such a state for "thousands" of years?

The periodic discovery of frozen mammoths in Siberia (nice little article about a recent one here) would seem to suggest so. Maybe mammoths are easier to find as they're a lot bigger than anything else that was out there at the time! There are probably one or two (presumably rather surprised-looking) Ice Age human hunters buried somewhere in the permafrost!

It's a shame the report can't give us anything conclusive about the age, apart from "several thousand years". Having seen the video segment, it looked even more animal-like, perhaps a wolf or something. The way the "foot" was stretched out made it resemble some kind of paw rather than anything humanoid.
 
I'm a bit worried about this one.
I'm expecting a 'its a fake' news story to come in the next day or two and to be found out to be fur glued to bones or something stupid.
If it does turn out to be fake then those scientists and their like will be made to look stupid and will be further fuel for those that scoff at cryptozoology.
I hope it is real and it is from an unknown animal. Even from an extinct animal would still be a cool news story.
 
Bear Paw

Looked like a bear paw to me, so I Googled for pictures of bear paws.

Black Bear Paw from Maine, U.S.A.

The principle difference between the two paws is that the Siberian one has a furry pad or "palm". The colour variation is unimportant--black bears can be black, brown or white--there is a population of white "Ghost bears" in the Queen Charlotte Islands which were genetically cut off from the mainland population thousands of years ago. They are NOT albinos. They are just lightly gray/white coloured--very similar to this paw, in fact.
 
Bear paw bones

Since the paws of most mammels and human hands have looked for a bear skeleton which would clarify the x-ray .

Bear Skeleton

As you can see, there is a great ressemblance between the feet of a bear and the feet of a man, despite the fact that bear tracks are much shorter and rounder than human tracks. Imagine a man walking on the balls of his feet, though, and they are much more similar in appearance.

(Later)

Since the paws of most mammels and human hands have looked for a bear skeleton which would clarify the x-ray .

Bear Skeleton

As you can see, there is a great ressemblance between the feet of a bear and the feet of a man, despite the fact that bear tracks are much shorter and rounder than human tracks. Imagine a man walking on the balls of his feet, though, and they are much more similar in appearance.
 
I thought it was a bear paw when I first saw the picture last week.In the last couple of days,Loren Coleman and others have agreed with my suspicions.
 
Even if it were a Yeti paw (foot? hand?), it wouldn't neccesarily prove anything, except that there were yetis around "thousands" of years ago. However, I suppose being able to prove that something once existed is better than not being able to prove anything.
 
Surely the main problem with identifying this as a bear is that what did a bears foot look like thousands of years ago, and how do they know how long ago it was buried, I,m always suspicious of tests which say 2-3 thousand years ago as if there isn,t much of a gap between them.
 
Err bear morphology in the last several thousand years hasn't changed much.

As well, there are bears native to nepal, or at least there were bears in tibet in recorded history.

If it IS a yeti paw, then yetis don't exist. Not, at least, the yeti that exists in popular conception, i.e. a primate of some sort.

It's a bear paw, ya de ya de ya de. Or, if not a bear paw, some other known animal's. That is not a primate paw/foot, at the very least.

**EDIT** WTF yeti's aren't from siberia, they're himalayan. Like saying you saw a yowie in North america, or the skunk ape in britain, or the sasquatch in india (i.e. each area seems to have its own name for "bigfoot"). Gah the above ^^ reflects that fact. It's a bear paw, definately.
 
Sertile said:
werewolf!

Wouldn't that be the coolest thing? Anyway, if it turns out to be a humanoid looking animal, not necesarely a primate, it could explain all those therianthrope images from ancient times. But hey, I hope the media keeps an eye on this thing, even if it turns out to be a hoax of some sort.
 
If it's a monkey's paw, then whoever found it gets three wishses!!! :D (I'm not sure if that works for other primates...)
 
As usual

no follow up on the story!! :hmph: probably some researcher is useing it as a back scracher
 
Ath said:
**EDIT** WTF yeti's aren't from siberia, they're himalayan. Like saying you saw a yowie in North america, or the skunk ape in britain, or the sasquatch in india (i.e. each area seems to have its own name for "bigfoot"). Gah the above ^^ reflects that fact. It's a bear paw, definately.
The Siberian BHM is known as the Chuchunaa, and is quite different from the Almas of the more Southerly Altai Mountains (surmised by Myra Shackley, among others, to be Neanderthal relicts). Chuchunaa conform to the usual Bigfoot archetype, very tall, covered in hair, curious about humans yet wary of them:
Siberia is also a hotbed of relic hominoid activity where the creature is gerally known by the generic name of "Chuchunaa". Maya Bykova, anassistant to Dr Boris Porshnev and an activit of the Smolin Seminar on Hominology at Darwin Museum in Moscow, is one of the few scientists who has actually observed a hominoid of unknown identity. In 1985 she was informed by a member of the ethnic Mnasi people named Volodya of a very large hominoid which had frequently visited his grandfather's hunting cabin in a cedar forest in the midst of several bogs. The creature was nicknamed Mecheny or "marked" because of the the whitish skin skin seen on its left forearm which was the only part of its body not covered by red-brown hair.
(from here).

There are also cryptid bears in Siberia (as well as established indigenous species)
Irkuiem(Siberia ASIA): A giant pure white bear, different from the polar bear, which dwells on the Kamchatka peninsula in Siberia. Probably a species of short-faced bear.

Bergman's bear(Siberia ASIA): Stan Bergman killed an enormous black bear, similar to the irkuiem, that was truly gigantic, exceeding all other bears in size. There is a folkloric history of these bears amongst the local Siberians, and Russian hnters have claimed to have killed them before. Definitely some kind of short-face bear, possibly even Arctodus simus, the giant short-faced bear which terrorized North America 10,000 years ago.
(from here).

So, as it looks like a bear paw, most people agree it looks like a bear paw, the x-ray looks like an x-ray of a bear paw, it's probable that it's a bear paw. But what kind of bear? Could be that another baby is about to be slung out with the bathwater, as once they establish it isn't a yeti paw they may well just mark it as "read" and confine it to a display cabinet somewhere. It could be the key to another cryptid altogether...
 
The Caucasian Almas

Prompted by recent discussion on the thread “Which ‘Monsters’ Are Real?”, am venturing to make an initial post in an envisaged spin-off. Concerns the Almas, “primate cryptid speciality” of the Caucasus region and maybe latitudes further east from there; but associated primarily with the Caucasus. A subject re which I have more interest, than knowledge – may possibly here, be spouting nonsense: would be interested in thoughts / info from anyone else, on the matter.

A fair number of accounts emanating from those parts, would seem to suggest that some countryfolk in the Caucasus are now, and have been for a very long time in the past, living in quite close and familiar association with Almas. Have seen it suggested that a century-plus ago, a certain number of peasant households actually had a semi-resident-servant Almas. (Will hunt out references, if requested.)

Assuming, as ever, that an undocumented purely-flesh-and-blood species is involved here – no element of “more and stranger things in heaven and earth...” : this alleged situation is one, concerning which I find problems. The scenario with most other “mystery primates”, involves – broadly -- their being unknown because they purportedly live in remote and inaccessible areas, and shun humankind. I can, with some difficulty, see that scenario as making sense.
However, the situation as described in the Caucasus I find extremely hard to credit – especially with this being not an extremely remote and obscure corner of the globe, whose human inhabitants are of a culture vastly out of the mainstream of such; but in Europe, even if an out-of-the-way corner thereof – and a well-populated area which was long part of a large, relatively modern state which exercised a high degree of control over its citizens and their lives. I find hard to swallow, the idea of a peasantry (however secretive) in such a state, living in close and ongoing contact with an undocumented primate species, but that situation never coming to the notice of the authorities in the lives of that peasantry; and the species thus remaining unknown to science. Such a situation strikes me as difficult enough to envisage in Tsarist times, but very much more so post-1917. One is given to understand that one of the miseries of being a Soviet subject, was everyone’s living under conditions of intense scrutiny and perpetual interference with every aspect of life – “you couldn’t even call your soul your own”.

Hom. sap. sap. / Almas contact and interaction, remaining unknown and unrevealed, save to the “interactors”, throughout the Soviet era – that strikes me as outright beyond belief. I would consider that if Almas exist and are purely flesh-and-blood, with no paranormal “funny business” – then Soviet authority found out all about them. Can believe that if any government on earth could have accomplished, for its own reasons, the total hushing-up of such a situation, the Soviet government could have done so. Those interested in such topics might have hoped that this issue would feature among the many things hitherto secret, which were brought into the light of day after the end of Communism and the USSR; but I have certainly not been aware of such a thing happening.
 
Have seen it suggested that a century-plus ago, a certain number of peasant households actually had a semi-resident-servant Almas. (Will hunt out references, if requested.)

I am intrigued Amyasleigh, and would very much like to see some references if you could manage it. Sadly i cannot reciprocate in either case I am referring to apart from sates and approximate times. First there is the Zana case, she being a female alma who was captured by some Georgian villagers in the late 19th Century. It gets a bit sordid : Zana liked a drink and became rather free with her favours when in her cups, resulting in several alma/human hybrids. Apparently the last one died in 1959 - can't recall his name but he was raised as a human and possessed extraordinary strength.
The other concerns an alma captured by the Soviet army in Dagestan in 1942. He was held for several days and examined by a doctor. Unfortunately the Germans were advancing and in their haste to retreat the Soviets shot him. So much for the blinding light of Soviet socialist science.

Wonder if any of thoese charming philanthropic Russians can remember where they buried them all?
 
look forward to this thread developing as I know next to nothing about this subject.
 
Whilst I would love for the almas legend to be true, I agree that it seems unlikely that a tribe of relict hominids could have survived into the twentieth century in Europe. I wonder if the stories are based on mentally ill/disabled individuals who perhaps lived semi-feral lives.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
Have seen it suggested that a century-plus ago, a certain number of peasant households actually had a semi-resident-servant Almas. (Will hunt out references, if requested.)

I am intrigued Amyasleigh, and would very much like to see some references if you could manage it. Sadly i cannot reciprocate in either case I am referring to apart from sates and approximate times. First there is the Zana case, she being a female alma who was captured by some Georgian villagers in the late 19th Century. It gets a bit sordid : Zana liked a drink and became rather free with her favours when in her cups, resulting in several alma/human hybrids. Apparently the last one died in 1959 - can't recall his name but he was raised as a human and possessed extraordinary strength.
The other concerns an alma captured by the Soviet army in Dagestan in 1942. He was held for several days and examined by a doctor. Unfortunately the Germans were advancing and in their haste to retreat the Soviets shot him. So much for the blinding light of Soviet socialist science.

Wonder if any of thoese charming philanthropic Russians can remember where they buried them all?

I think investigations into the remains of one of the descendents proved he was fully (modern) human.
 
I think investigations into the remains of one of the descendents proved he was fully (modern) human.

I read one of the sites linked to above which mentioned Boris Porchnev investigating the family cemetary of the Zana descendents. Apparently he found neanderthal-like bones, but not the remains of Zana herself. Somebody else pointed out that almas do not actually resemble neanderthals.
Perhaps they are actually some offshoot of us, different looking but still with homo sapiens sapiens DNA
 
[quoteSearch, and ye shall find... Wiki!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almas_(cryptozoology)

also a few mentions on FTMB, mainly here
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24639

Thank you I sought and found, the red man-ape army was great.

Bigfoot the offshoot of us sounds plausible if there is any reality behind the Almas. I agree with Amyasleigh though about the Soviets not finding out, surely they would have had a lot to gain if they had found them in propaganda terms having such a wonderful discovery in their area.
That said it would be great to think that there was still a relict population of Neandertals around.[/quote]
 
Thank you I sought and found, the red man-ape army was great.

To think the sort of military thinking portrayed in "The Men who Stare at Goats" is regarded as novel!

surely they would have had a lot to gain if they had found them in propaganda terms having such a wonderful discovery in their area.
Personally I suspect the vagaries of Stalinism are to blame for this. There may have been an officially sanctioned Party doctrine on human evolution, and anybody suggesting otherwise, or finding evidence to the contrary, could have found themselves being packed off to the gulags.
Maybe it was just fear of offending Stalin: he came from Georgia, home to quite a few almas, and was apparently a bit inbred looking with this webbed foot and different length arms.

That said it would be great to think that there was still a relict population of Neandertals around.

I think there still are. A lot of the wildmen described in the linked articles and elsewhere sound more like neanderthals than the almas do, and if there are bigfoots , littlefoots, Australian aborigines who seem to have homo erectus traits, and modern sightings of australopithicenes in Africa then there's plenty of room for some plain old neanderthals.
 
True Uncle Joe wasn't exactly Mr balanced, so I can understand why you'd want to pack some warm clothes before telling him he shared his home state with what could be seen as primitive humans. But he's been gone a long time, plenty of time for them to have spotted the advantages of having a major zoological/anthropological coup on their hands during the Soviet era, Khrushchev would have had hours of fun tantalising western scientists with the chance of studying them. As well as penty of time for spotting the financial benefits in the post Soviet Caucasus an Almas population would present. The trouble with unknown wildmen has been mentioned by Lordmongrove on the other thread regarding the Orang Pendek, when he suggested that unlike tigers and rhino they aren't a target for poachers, but as all of the wildmen are supposed to occur in areas where people are poor and guns unregulated (especially true in the former soviet states) no one makes the obvious choice to go for the big money and shoot one. To me, along with the questions raised about the possibility of a breeding population surviving undetected or known only to the locals, you also have to accept that the locals behave in a way contrary to human nature everywhere else by not exploiting them to the max.

Australian Aboriginals do not have homo erectus traits, they are fully modern humans evolved for thousands of years to suite their environment .

We seem to be heading for the Neandertal extinction/hybridisation argument here.
 
I did say some aboriginals: check out the story of the Kow Swamp archaeological site, a saga which swings this way and that but finally ended up pointing towards there being too many h.erectus traits in the remains found and in some aborigines in the region for just chance variation.Of course I'm not trying to portray them as just a bunch of primitives but there are all sorts of aspects to human evolution which at first glance don't sit well with modern liberal mores ( don't know how you do that accent thing).

To me, along with the questions raised about the possibility of a breeding population surviving undetected or known only to the locals, you also have to accept that the locals behave in a way contrary to human nature everywhere else by not exploiting them to the max.

I concede that this is a very good point. However, when you think about it, nobody anywhere has ever brought in a single specimen of anything at all.
That's if you disbelieve all the claims of discovery of all the wildmen and cryptids that have ever been made.
Human nature is open to debate on this point I would suggest, I don't think it's because there has never been anything out there to bring in.
As for the hybridization debate I think there are far more debates in the evolution of intelligent bipedal life on this planet than just that one.
 
I did say some aboriginals: check out the story of the Kow Swamp archaeological site, a saga which swings this way and that but finally ended up pointing towards there being too many h.erectus traits in the remains found and in some aborigines in the region for just chance variation.Of course I'm not trying to portray them as just a bunch of primitives but there are all sorts of aspects to human evolution which at first glance don't sit well with modern liberal mores ( don't know how you do that accent thing).

I really didn't think that you were being prejudice there Bigfoot, reading your posts you don't come across that way at all. There is or was a huge movement in China including leading academics, which claim direct ancestry for the Chinese from h erectus, and to them it was a point of national pride. Social mores or not though it is a subject that can bring out the worst in some people, reading around this subject its not long before you find statements about cranial size and IQ and sub races. I'm not saying that because there are some twisted people out there with their own sordid little agendas, Kow Swamp showing archiac human features shouldn't be discussed, so much as ask who and why is discussing it. Creationists seem to be quite interested, presumably because they're trying to pass of other human types as deformities as was the case with Neandertals initially, while the scientists, despite early speculation that it could represent h erectus, who've carried out the recent analyses on them, and there's been a lot, coming down firmly as them being fully modern.
 
I really didn't think that you were being prejudice there Bigfoot, reading your posts you don't come across that way at all.
Thanks mate.

Wise words about the h.erectus issue. If the Chinese explorers who recently dicovered the Ark remains are also creationists as well as evangelical Christians then I can see why so many people doubt their credibility ( although that remanins to be seen and I stil believe it.)
There is more on the web concerning Kow Swamp than when I last looked - the remains seem to be a lot older than originally thought, and yes it would seem they are modern h. sapiens.
 
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