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The Bible: Fact Or Fiction?

Is the Bible Fact or Fiction?

  • Fact

    Votes: 2 6.5%
  • Fiction

    Votes: 8 25.8%
  • A Mixture of Factual & Fictional

    Votes: 21 67.7%
  • I Don't Know / No Firm Opinion

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    31
  • This poll will close: .

Analogue Boy

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If you accept all the other allegory, myth, metaphors and parables of the Bible, is it difficult to then accept that Jesus was described as a carpenter as that trade had the skills to build a ‘House of God’? Carpenters didn't just knock up coffee tables in those days you know.
 
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Xanatic*

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No mention of a census, a new star in the east, Herod killing children or holy men rising from their graves either.
 

Dropship

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If you accept all the other allegory, myth, metaphors and parables of the Bible, is it difficult to then accept that Jesus was described as a carpenter as that trade had the skills to build a ‘House of God’? Carpenters didn't just knock up coffee tables in those days you know.
Jesus was described in the original Greek as a "tekton" which translates as "craftsman", meaning a worker in wood/stone and anything else, so he could certainly multi-task, but the word "carpenter" has traditionally stuck..:)
 

EnolaGaia

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Remember, when the first gospels were written, nobody- not a single soul - ever came forward from the priests or the Romans or the people to say "baloney, it never happened!"
That's because JC was too BIG to have been a myth, and they knew that if they tried to deny his existence they'd just make laughing stocks of themselves..
I suggest you invest some time in researching the ever-inappropriate and always fallacious gambit called 'circular reasoning', 'cause you're guilty as hell of it here.

The presumption that Jesus was so 'big' as to be self-evidently above scrutiny decades after his death entails fame that could only have arisen from widely known and disseminated claims - claims we see recorded in the Bible's New Testament today. You're relying upon the current / received record of the claims as evidence for the substance, popular recognition, and even the existence of the claims back in the first century AD - before these claims were known to have been documented.

The ironic cherry capping off this shit sundae lies in the fact you're presenting it within a discussion focused on the reliability of such documentation and seem to think personal declaration of belief in said documentation (two millennia later; as handed down) constitutes any sort of solid foundation for imaginatively projecting features and scenarios that aren't even mentioned in the documentation that hadn't even existed at the time.

This isn't simply circular reasoning - it's circular reasoning encrusted with fan fiction.
 

Dropship

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No mention of a census, a new star in the east, Herod killing children or holy men rising from their graves either.
1- Censuses are boring political things so no historian would bother to record it.
2- The star of Bethlehem might have been a UFO that drew UFO-hunters (the 3 wise men) to Bethlehem.
3- Herod no doubt forbad all mention of him slaughtering kids.
4- When Jesus died there was darkness and earthquakes and other spooky stuff as if the very fabric of the universe had been torn apart, so anything could have happened.
 

Dropship

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I suggest you invest some time in researching the ever-inappropriate and always fallacious gambit called 'circular reasoning', 'cause you're guilty as hell of it here..
I'm a truthseeker and if I thought the Bible is lying through it's teeth I'd ditch it in an instant, but the plain fact is that the more I've researched it, the more I've been drawn into its fascinating depths..:)
Even skeptics experience it and change their tune, eg-

"When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist, I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them.
I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics."- Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics), 1994 The Physics of Immortality. New York, Doubleday, preface.
 

Analogue Boy

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1- Censuses are boring political things so no historian would bother to record it.
2- The star of Bethlehem might have been a UFO that drew UFO-hunters (the 3 wise men) to Bethlehem.
3- Herod no doubt forbad all mention of him slaughtering kids.
4- When Jesus died there was darkness and earthquakes and other spooky stuff as if the very fabric of the universe had been torn apart, so anything could have happened.
1. These would be historical documents and a matter of record. When you’re collecting taxes, things get very thorough.
2. Where to even start with this? To prove the existence of Jesus, you also have to prove the existence of UFOs. And then that the 3 Wise Men were UFO hunters. You may as well propose a hypothesis that they rode around The Sea of Galilee on the Loch Ness Monster.
3. Why? Wouldn’t he justify his reasons? What is the proof for Herod covering up the slaughter?
4. Explained by a natural incident like an eclipse or volcanic explosion. Obviously, the fabric of the universe wasn’t torn apart. Like CGI-laden movies, I’m sure Gospels liked a big finish. Speaking of which, just when Jesus dies and comes back to life and the story gets interesting, who’s covering it?
 

Analogue Boy

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I'm a truthseeker and if I thought the Bible is lying through it's teeth I'd ditch it in an instant, but the plain fact is that the more I've researched it, the more I've been drawn into its fascinating depths..:)
Even skeptics experience it and change their tune, eg-

"When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist, I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them.
I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics."- Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics), 1994 The Physics of Immortality. New York, Doubleday, preface.

This is not proof of anything, except a man reads a book and really likes it.
 

Dropship

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..when Jesus dies and comes back to life and the story gets interesting, who’s covering it?
Some people went to visit his tomb but were shocked to find the stone had been rolled away and he wasn't inside.
A guy in "bright clothes" (alien?) told them "He's gone like he said he would".
There were even two Roman sentries on duty there who never saw a thing.
Naturally the word went round town and became embedded in the peoples memory.
 

Analogue Boy

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Some people went to visit his tomb but were shocked to find the stone had been rolled away and he wasn't inside.
A guy in "bright clothes" (alien?) told them "He's gone like he said he would".
There were even two Roman sentries on duty there who never saw a thing.
Naturally the word went round town and became embedded in the peoples memory.
Thanks for the history lesson. I didn’t realise an alien was on hand to do all the PR.
My point is that when he did appear backfrom the dead to some disciples, they failed to ask the question, ‘Jesus! What happened? And what happens after WE die?’ Or glean any useful information at all really.
 

Dropship

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Darkness..earthquake....Explained by a natural incident like an eclipse or volcanic explosion..
Yes but as God controls the laws of nature whose to say he didn't trigger them himself?
PS- Scientists have speculated that the "pillar of fire" that guided Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt was really Santorini erupting in the Mediterranean many miles away, in which case we could speculate that God himself triggered it and told Moses- "Here's a reference point for you, keep it behind your left shoulder to ensure you're walking east"..:)
 

Analogue Boy

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Yes but as God controls the laws of nature whose to say he didn't trigger them himself?
PS- Scientists have speculated that the "pillar of fire" that guided Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt was really Santorini erupting in the Mediterranean many miles away, in which case we could speculate that God himself triggered it and told Moses- "Here's a reference point for you, keep it behind your left shoulder to ensure you're walking east"..:)

I’ll not bother asking about proof of God controlling nature.
But there is the theory that Santorini going off was the source of the Plagues of Egypt.
 

Dropship

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Thanks for the history lesson. I didn’t realise an alien was on hand to do all the PR.
My point is that when he did appear backfrom the dead to some disciples, they failed to ask the question, ‘Jesus! What happened? And what happens after WE die?’ Or glean any useful information at all really.
1- Jesus said he himself was an alien "I am not of this world" so it's reasonable to assume he had mates ("angels"?) around..:)
2- When he appeared after his death Mary went to give him a big hug but he said "Don't touch me because I've not yet ascended to my Father", so we could speculate that he was a "ghost" and he knew Mary would have freaked if her hands had gone through him.
Later, after ascending and getting a new solid flesh/blood body he appeared to a roomful of his mates but Thomas doubted he was real, so Jesus said "Look, touch the spear wound in my side, I'm real enough".
As for what they should have asked him, what was there to ask? I mean, he'd proven that death couldn't hold him down..:)

 

Analogue Boy

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1- Jesus said he himself was an alien "I am not of this world" so it's reasonable to assume he had mates ("angels"?) around..:)
2- When he appeared after his death Mary went to give him a big hug but he said "Don't touch me because I've not yet ascended to my Father", so we could speculate that he was a "ghost" and he knew Mary would have freaked if her hands had gone through him.
Later he appeared to a roomful of his mates but Thomas doubted he was real, so Jesus said "Look, touch the spear wound in my side, I'm real enough".
A speculation- perhaps he'd had to "ascend to God" in order to get a new solid flesh-and blood body so that he could return to earth.
Oops sorry was I rambling?
So Mary couldn't touch him because he was a ghost yet Thomas could have a good old poke around in there?
You’ve speculated on UFOs, UFO hunters, Aliens and now you’re doing ghosts.
 

Dropship

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I’ll not bother asking about proof of God controlling nature.
But there is the theory that Santorini going off was the source of the Plagues of Egypt.
Yes there was a TV docu some years ago that scientifically examined each of the Ten Plagues and concluded that they may well have happened naturally. Which brings us back to the point I made about God deliberately controlling the laws of nature to produce them..:)
 

Analogue Boy

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Yes there was a TV docu some years ago that scientifically examined each of the Ten Plagues and concluded that they may well have happened naturally. Which brings us back to the point I made about God deliberately controlling the laws of nature to produce them..:)
Jeez. Can you prove God exists for us?
 

Xanatic*

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Sai Baba who died a few years ago also performed miracles and had about a million followers? Was he divine? Also what about Harry Potter, he also seems awfully popular.
 

Dropship

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So Mary couldn't touch him because he was a ghost yet Thomas could have a good old poke around in there?
You’ve speculated on UFOs, UFO hunters, Aliens and now you’re doing ghosts.
Sorry if I wasn't clearer, but when Mary wanted to hug him he said "Don't touch me because I haven't yet ascended to my Father".
So it seems he was in ghostly form. Later he returned to earth with a flesh/blood body and invited people to touch him to see he was real.
It's as if he had to get a new body "up there" to use as a "spacesuit" and beam back down to get around on the earth.
 

Dropship

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WARNING: Terms of Service Violation: Posting Doctrinaire Items to Evade Discussion
Sai Baba who died a few years ago also performed miracles and had about a million followers? Was he divine? Also what about Harry Potter, he also seems awfully popular.
Jesus is a hard act to follow which is why he still tops the bill and not Sai Baba or anybody else..:)
As for fictional Potter, at least he's whetted kids interest in the supernatural, so maybe as they get older they'll realise the Bible is the real deal and turn to that instead..:)
 
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Dropship

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WARNING: Terms of Service Violation: Posting Doctrinaire Items Unrelated to Discussion
And a lot of people have hidden shallows.
Yes we could say they're "spiritually retarded"-

(Gratuitous Bible quote removed.)

But you, me and all other Fortean truthseekers are not like that..:)
 
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kamalktk

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Huh? Two of the gospel-writers were actual disciples, you can't get better street cred than that..:)

Matthew the disciple, formerly Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27) son of Alpheus, was formerly a tax collector (Luke 5:29-30) one of the 12 apostles handpicked by Jesus (Matthew 9:9), he wrote his gospel between c.60 and 80 AD.

John the disciple, (John 13:23) son of Zebedee, the brother of James the "greater" (Matthew 4:21; 10:2; Mark 1:19; 3:17; 10:35) wrote his gospel c.95AD, the last to be written before Revelation. Also from a wealthy family (Mark 1:20; Luke 5:3; John 19:27). His mother was probably Salome (Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40). He was one of the closest disciples to Jesus among the twelve (Matthew 17:1; 26:37; Mark 5:37; 13:3). He was zealous (Matthew 20:20-24; Mark 3:17; 10:35-41; Luke 9:49, 54). He became one of the leaders of the Jerusalem Church (Acts 15:6; Galatians 2:9) and of the seven churches in Asia (Revelation 1:11). He was banished to the island of Patmos where he wrote Revelation.
Unfortunately, neither of the works attributed to them have been confirmed to have been written by them. Matthew's Gospel is anonymous, and the work was attributed to him during the 2nd century. John's Gospel is also anonymous.

Much like the story of Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter, written as a diary of Lincoln himself, but more than a hundred years after his death. Give that book another two milennia, and we may have a "true account" of Lincoln hunting vampires, with "corroborating evidence" from various fanfiction authors.
 

Dropship

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[Matthew and John]....Unfortunately, neither of the works attributed to them have been confirmed to have been written by them. Matthew's Gospel is anonymous, and the work was attributed to him during the 2nd century. John's Gospel is also anonymous.
Huh? Surely the clue about who wrote them is in the name-
The Gospel of Matthew
The Gospel of John
However, they might well have dictated them to others to write down, just like Buddha and Mohammed did..:)
 

Mythopoeika

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Right, billions of Christians, Muslims and Jews all say Jesus existed, so the burden is on atheists to explain why they claim he didn't..:)
What do Muslims really know about Jesus? There weren't any around at the time of Jesus. They just acknowledge him as a prophet.
 
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