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The Child Snatcher(s) (Child Abductor Trope / Meme): UL?
- Thread starter Mighty_Emperor
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CuriousIdent
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I'm not certain that "Fascinating" is an appropriate term, but in a very dark way this is. The possibility that this may be some kind of spectral bieng accross the ages is very disturbing...
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Indeed - the possibility also remains that (like the "skinheads are about to come and kick our heads in" rumour) it is more Chinese Whispers.
CuriousIdent
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Curious...
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?
Curious Ident said:
FWIW, I think it is more likely to be projection of "The Shadow" as described by Jungian pyschology, possibly spawned by one or two real events, and then spiralling out of control as these things do in the minds of children and concerned parents. The description of the "perp" that the kids provide may also back that up: Black hair, unkempt, yellow teeth - essentially a tick-the-box list of all that society may deem different / unnaceptable / sinister. But then again, that description would have fitted Fred West so who knows...
I think it's just an ordinary paedophile being somewhat over romanticised by the newspaper.
Graylien
As if!
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I've heard of this one before - in the guise of "Evil Clown" sightings in the 1980's. The Evil Clowns seem similar to the Men In Black in that while they appear very threatening, there is no record of them actually harming anyone. The following is quoted from the page Coulrophobia & The Trickster
My daughter had a frightening, mystifying experience. She didn't tell me about it until she was about twenty years old. Apparently, when she was around six years of age, she was standing on the driveway of our house when a little car swung into the street. We lived three houses from the corner and about ten houses further along, the street ended in a circular cul-de-sac.
Instead of driving straight up the street, the car stopped abruptly outside our house. It contained four men, youngish. All had long dark, unkempt hair. The passenger door flew open and one of the men leapt out. He headed towards my daughter, then crouched and held his hands out menacingly. My daughter believed he was going to run up and grab her. She was so shocked and frightened, she couldn't move. But before he reached her, the man abruptly turned and jumped back into the car, which then sped up the street.
My daughter knew she wouldn't be able to open the gate and make it into the house before the car returned. It couldn't go far because the street ended in the cul-de-sac. So instead of trying to get to the house, she instead hid behind a garden wall. She crouched down low, under shrubs, even though she knew snails and possibly spiders were there. She heard the car slow down as it reached our house again -- she said she was terrified. Then the car left. She heard it's tyres screech as it tore around the corner.
While all this was occurring, I was only about twenty metres away; inside the house, oblivious to the whole thing. It was such a safe little area; that's the reason we moved there.
When she told me, all I could think about was ' what if ...'. And I said half a dozen swift prayers of thanks. I can still hardly bear to think about 'what if ...'.
My daughter sometimes mentions it. It remains a mystery. She said there was something unnatural, bizarre about it and about the fact the men all looked very similar. She wonders why they did as they did and why she was lucky enough not to be dragged into the car. I think she has a feeling there was an element of the paranormal about it.
I know it all sounds straightforward; sounds as if four weirdos just decided to have a bit of fun frightening a child. But I'll have to trust her instincts regarded the 'strangeness' of it. She said it was as if something suddenly stopped the one who'd jumped at her, from actually grabbing her.
I'm just so deeply thankful she was spared. So thankful. Because that's how swift and unexpectedly someone could grab your child.
Instead of driving straight up the street, the car stopped abruptly outside our house. It contained four men, youngish. All had long dark, unkempt hair. The passenger door flew open and one of the men leapt out. He headed towards my daughter, then crouched and held his hands out menacingly. My daughter believed he was going to run up and grab her. She was so shocked and frightened, she couldn't move. But before he reached her, the man abruptly turned and jumped back into the car, which then sped up the street.
My daughter knew she wouldn't be able to open the gate and make it into the house before the car returned. It couldn't go far because the street ended in the cul-de-sac. So instead of trying to get to the house, she instead hid behind a garden wall. She crouched down low, under shrubs, even though she knew snails and possibly spiders were there. She heard the car slow down as it reached our house again -- she said she was terrified. Then the car left. She heard it's tyres screech as it tore around the corner.
While all this was occurring, I was only about twenty metres away; inside the house, oblivious to the whole thing. It was such a safe little area; that's the reason we moved there.
When she told me, all I could think about was ' what if ...'. And I said half a dozen swift prayers of thanks. I can still hardly bear to think about 'what if ...'.
My daughter sometimes mentions it. It remains a mystery. She said there was something unnatural, bizarre about it and about the fact the men all looked very similar. She wonders why they did as they did and why she was lucky enough not to be dragged into the car. I think she has a feeling there was an element of the paranormal about it.
I know it all sounds straightforward; sounds as if four weirdos just decided to have a bit of fun frightening a child. But I'll have to trust her instincts regarded the 'strangeness' of it. She said it was as if something suddenly stopped the one who'd jumped at her, from actually grabbing her.
I'm just so deeply thankful she was spared. So thankful. Because that's how swift and unexpectedly someone could grab your child.
Again - that has got to be a parents worse nightmare and I can imagine that it was one hell of a shock when she told you.
Thia thread reminds me of an article I caught in an old magazine a couple of days ago. It was talking about Brits moving to foreign countries and pointed out that there was a lot of anti-brit feelings in some areas of France. One couple said that their child's teacher told them to 'be careful of gypsies'. Now does this refer to Ben Needham and the theory that he was taken by gypsies? I have heard of people telling a child that if they didn't behave they'd be taken by/given to the gypsies. I wonder how common this belief is?
Thia thread reminds me of an article I caught in an old magazine a couple of days ago. It was talking about Brits moving to foreign countries and pointed out that there was a lot of anti-brit feelings in some areas of France. One couple said that their child's teacher told them to 'be careful of gypsies'. Now does this refer to Ben Needham and the theory that he was taken by gypsies? I have heard of people telling a child that if they didn't behave they'd be taken by/given to the gypsies. I wonder how common this belief is?
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And more news:
Source
Picked up at Loren Coleman's blog which I assume will be tracking this one as we are.
Source
Picked up at Loren Coleman's blog which I assume will be tracking this one as we are.
I think every parent suffers a severe and lilteral tightening of the gut when they hear a child is missing. Every parent must whisper, mentally: 'there but for the grace of ...' The community's sympathy for the parents of a missing child is genuine, but all know that nothing, ever, could possibly help the frantic parents; nothing will ever be the same for those parents; it's a life sentence. They're compelled to suffer not only the loss, but the agonies of guilt, regret, the ' if only I'd kept a closer watch, if only I hadn't let them go to play that afternoon, if only ...'
Most parents warn their children not to speak to strangers, not to accept lifts, not to accept sweets. And when a child goes missing, there's a suspicion that despite all the warnings, the child must have been tricked by the abductor, must have gone willingly. Otherwise they would have called out for help -- wouldn't they? Because if the child had resisted, someone, surely, would have seen, would have heard?
Not necessarily. Many years ago, when I was around five years of age, my parents began impressing upon me that under no circumstances must I ever speak to people I didn't know and I must particularly avoid men in black cars. Little girls had gone missing in the area and a man in a black car was believed responsible. I understood the warnings and intended to heed them. Then one afternoon I stood across the road from my grandmother's house, having been told to go there after school. It was a small village with houses all the way down the road from the school to my grandparents' house. For this reason it was probably deemed safe to let me walk from school. It was raining and I was looking left and right as I'd been told, waiting for a chance to cross the road to my grandmother's. I was frightened of the road; I remember being anxious, standing there in the rain, unsure when I should cross.
Then from nowhere a man came up beside me. He was older than my father; younger than my grandfather. I'd never seen him before. But to a child, all adults -- especially when they're standing right next to you -- are authority figures. He asked if I wanted to cross the road; I nodded. I pointed across the road to my grandmother's house. The man took my hand; just the way parents, relatives and teachers do. A child is used to the adult taking the initiative. He pointed across to a black car,(although nearly all cars were black then) on the other side of the road, parked in the side road to the left of my grandmother's house. He asked if I'd like to go sit in his car, nice and dry, until the rain stopped. I continued pointing at my grandmother's house and told him I wanted to go to my grandma. It was as if he didn't hear me, no matter how many times I told him. Then with my hand trapped in his, and still speaking perfectly normally and reassuringly, he told me he'd take me to his car, just until the rain stopped.
I was wondering why he didn't take me to my grandmother's house; it was closer than his car. I didn't want to go to his car. I remembered very well that men in black cars were to be avoided; they took little girls and never brought them back.
But he was big; he was old; he had my hand and he wouldn't let it go. I tried to pull my hand free, but he just smiled at me and repeated I could sit in his car. Then he walked me across the road. I was politely tugging to get free, but it was impossible. I couldn't understand why he wouldn't listen to me. By this time we were across the road and he was leading me to his car. A sort of resignation descended on me. He was the adult. And then, seeming like an angel, my grandmother appeared at her door, just as the man had almost led me past the point of being able to see the front of her house. At least that's the memory I have. And of course in my memory, I cried out 'Grandma !' and all was well. But I don't remember any more at all. We left England shortly afterwards. Very soon after we came to Australia, I had to spend several weeks in hospital for unpleasant and painful treatment involving catheters being inserted inside me several times a day. I was told it was because I'd been bittten by mosquitos. It may be true, I don't know, although from an adult persepective, it sounds odd. I never questioned my parents; we just didn't have that sort of relationship. If nothing happened to me after the man took my hand, and if my grandmother actually did appear to rescue me, then I was very fortunate.
The point is, children do not necessarily call out for help or struggle. The man spoke in a calm voice throughout, although he knew full well he was leading me against my will. Child abductors work it all out first; they very often restrain themselves and behave normally to all outward appearances; they do not want to create a scene; will do anything to get their own way whilst evading discovery. And children, most of them, are taught -- by word or example -- to be polite, to not make a fuss. They are taught to obey adults. They are introduced to many adults during their formative years, with the emphasis always on politeness. Children observe their parents behaving politely even towards those whom the child knows the parent actually detests. So the message is always one of deferring to others, to agreeing with others. Mothers greet detested neighbours and relatives with false politeness; parents defer to ugly, nasty doctors and teachers for example; parents give assistance to neighbours whom they privately despise -- all with false smiles and courtesy. And the child observes this. Learns that one does not state one's mind; does not loudly object to the objectionable, does not refuse.
I told my children from a very early age that just because someone is tall or has white hair or is a neighbour or a teacher, does not mean they are automatically right, or to be trusted or obeyed. I told my children to object loudly, if they believed they were being imposed upon, or if they sensed a situation was not right, or felt frightening. I told them that when in any doubt, they should shout, kick and run. If wrong, apologies could always be made afterwards. And they nodded and said they understood. But they just didn't have the temperament to behave that way and ended up being unfailingly polite, regardless.
Some children scream when afraid; some children suck in their breath and stand frozen. I have a strong suspicion that child abductors can tell very swiftly how a potential child-victim is likely to react. Unfortunately, society is far less able to spot child-molestors before they can do harm.
Most parents warn their children not to speak to strangers, not to accept lifts, not to accept sweets. And when a child goes missing, there's a suspicion that despite all the warnings, the child must have been tricked by the abductor, must have gone willingly. Otherwise they would have called out for help -- wouldn't they? Because if the child had resisted, someone, surely, would have seen, would have heard?
Not necessarily. Many years ago, when I was around five years of age, my parents began impressing upon me that under no circumstances must I ever speak to people I didn't know and I must particularly avoid men in black cars. Little girls had gone missing in the area and a man in a black car was believed responsible. I understood the warnings and intended to heed them. Then one afternoon I stood across the road from my grandmother's house, having been told to go there after school. It was a small village with houses all the way down the road from the school to my grandparents' house. For this reason it was probably deemed safe to let me walk from school. It was raining and I was looking left and right as I'd been told, waiting for a chance to cross the road to my grandmother's. I was frightened of the road; I remember being anxious, standing there in the rain, unsure when I should cross.
Then from nowhere a man came up beside me. He was older than my father; younger than my grandfather. I'd never seen him before. But to a child, all adults -- especially when they're standing right next to you -- are authority figures. He asked if I wanted to cross the road; I nodded. I pointed across the road to my grandmother's house. The man took my hand; just the way parents, relatives and teachers do. A child is used to the adult taking the initiative. He pointed across to a black car,(although nearly all cars were black then) on the other side of the road, parked in the side road to the left of my grandmother's house. He asked if I'd like to go sit in his car, nice and dry, until the rain stopped. I continued pointing at my grandmother's house and told him I wanted to go to my grandma. It was as if he didn't hear me, no matter how many times I told him. Then with my hand trapped in his, and still speaking perfectly normally and reassuringly, he told me he'd take me to his car, just until the rain stopped.
I was wondering why he didn't take me to my grandmother's house; it was closer than his car. I didn't want to go to his car. I remembered very well that men in black cars were to be avoided; they took little girls and never brought them back.
But he was big; he was old; he had my hand and he wouldn't let it go. I tried to pull my hand free, but he just smiled at me and repeated I could sit in his car. Then he walked me across the road. I was politely tugging to get free, but it was impossible. I couldn't understand why he wouldn't listen to me. By this time we were across the road and he was leading me to his car. A sort of resignation descended on me. He was the adult. And then, seeming like an angel, my grandmother appeared at her door, just as the man had almost led me past the point of being able to see the front of her house. At least that's the memory I have. And of course in my memory, I cried out 'Grandma !' and all was well. But I don't remember any more at all. We left England shortly afterwards. Very soon after we came to Australia, I had to spend several weeks in hospital for unpleasant and painful treatment involving catheters being inserted inside me several times a day. I was told it was because I'd been bittten by mosquitos. It may be true, I don't know, although from an adult persepective, it sounds odd. I never questioned my parents; we just didn't have that sort of relationship. If nothing happened to me after the man took my hand, and if my grandmother actually did appear to rescue me, then I was very fortunate.
The point is, children do not necessarily call out for help or struggle. The man spoke in a calm voice throughout, although he knew full well he was leading me against my will. Child abductors work it all out first; they very often restrain themselves and behave normally to all outward appearances; they do not want to create a scene; will do anything to get their own way whilst evading discovery. And children, most of them, are taught -- by word or example -- to be polite, to not make a fuss. They are taught to obey adults. They are introduced to many adults during their formative years, with the emphasis always on politeness. Children observe their parents behaving politely even towards those whom the child knows the parent actually detests. So the message is always one of deferring to others, to agreeing with others. Mothers greet detested neighbours and relatives with false politeness; parents defer to ugly, nasty doctors and teachers for example; parents give assistance to neighbours whom they privately despise -- all with false smiles and courtesy. And the child observes this. Learns that one does not state one's mind; does not loudly object to the objectionable, does not refuse.
I told my children from a very early age that just because someone is tall or has white hair or is a neighbour or a teacher, does not mean they are automatically right, or to be trusted or obeyed. I told my children to object loudly, if they believed they were being imposed upon, or if they sensed a situation was not right, or felt frightening. I told them that when in any doubt, they should shout, kick and run. If wrong, apologies could always be made afterwards. And they nodded and said they understood. But they just didn't have the temperament to behave that way and ended up being unfailingly polite, regardless.
Some children scream when afraid; some children suck in their breath and stand frozen. I have a strong suspicion that child abductors can tell very swiftly how a potential child-victim is likely to react. Unfortunately, society is far less able to spot child-molestors before they can do harm.
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Yesterday (20-12-2004), while driving to work, I heard a news report about a boy in Williston, FL, being abducted from the McDonald's. A man shoved the boy's mother to the ground, grabbed the kid, told the mother "You'll never see him alive again" and jumped into a car with the kid and drove off. Very scary, vey disturbing.
The news last night had an update. The boy is safe, and was safe. The man was the boy's father, who had custody rights. There had been a disagreement between the parents, and the father apparently lost his temper. A more or less happy ending.
What I find interesting is the subtext here. I heard the first report at 1 PM. The "abduction" had occurred at about 11 AM. That should give the police plenty of time to learn from the mother what had actually happened. My question is, where was the lag? Was it between the police and the news people? Or did the mother kind of drag her feet, deciding to let the father take some heat before explaining to authorities? Or did the flow of events prevent the mother from saying much at first?
The news last night had an update. The boy is safe, and was safe. The man was the boy's father, who had custody rights. There had been a disagreement between the parents, and the father apparently lost his temper. A more or less happy ending.
What I find interesting is the subtext here. I heard the first report at 1 PM. The "abduction" had occurred at about 11 AM. That should give the police plenty of time to learn from the mother what had actually happened. My question is, where was the lag? Was it between the police and the news people? Or did the mother kind of drag her feet, deciding to let the father take some heat before explaining to authorities? Or did the flow of events prevent the mother from saying much at first?
CuriousIdent
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I woul assume that the woman decided not to mention the husband in the hope that The Police would treat it with more urrgency. You see if he's with the father technicallyno crime has been comitted. She just wanted to drop her husband in it.
A sadly common tactic when I child is fueded over.
A sadly common tactic when I child is fueded over.
A
Anonymous
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Was interested to hear on the radio a few days ago that Chitty Bang Bang was written by Ian Flemming.
PeniG
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alb said:
Yes, but there's no Childsnatcher in the book. Jeremy and Jemima are kidnapped by normal villains, and the sentient car is the only fantasy element.
If you're only familiar with the Disney movie version of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, check out the book - it's very different indeed. Different from Bond, too (which I find unreadable), though with the same delight in gadgets. Basically the names of the children and the nature of the car are all that was carried over for the movie version - the time is mid-20th century, there's no love interest (Jeremy and Jemima having a full set of parents), and the problem is straight-up international villains.
Thus endeth this digression...
A
Anonymous
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While I appreciate may of the stories of abduction are true, I'm sure these sort of stories have been doing the rounds for generations. When I was that age there were plenty of local bogeymen, who were either:
a, sexual perverts who preyed on young boys and did unspeakable things to them, or;
b, slightly unhinged characters who seemed outwardly normal, if a bit twitchy, but if you said a particular word to him he would fly into a rage and kill you if he managed to get his hands on you.
Once some friends and I were walking home from the local swimming pool, when one of them alerted us all to the presence of The Wankerman. All I saw was an average (albeit a bit nerdy and trainspotter-ish) bloke drive past in his car. Apparently we'd had a lucky escape, because it appeared The Wankerman was a rampant sexual predator who abducted young boys and molested them. He was reknowned, everyone knew it was a fact! The fact that he'd jsut driven past in a car was cited as definite proof that he was in fact cruising for young boys. We spent the rest of the way homne diving for cover behind walls and bushes every time a car of a similar colour came past.
Also there was an old gent who used to get about the place. He was a bit shabby and didn't speak much sense, but he was by no means a mad old tramp or anything of the sort. In fact he seemed quite pleasant. This was Whistler, so called because if you whistled at him it would set off something in his brain, and he would go wild, chase you down and kill you. This was embellished with stories of how he could run at 90mph, or how he once chased a kid for 5 hours...
a, sexual perverts who preyed on young boys and did unspeakable things to them, or;
b, slightly unhinged characters who seemed outwardly normal, if a bit twitchy, but if you said a particular word to him he would fly into a rage and kill you if he managed to get his hands on you.
Once some friends and I were walking home from the local swimming pool, when one of them alerted us all to the presence of The Wankerman. All I saw was an average (albeit a bit nerdy and trainspotter-ish) bloke drive past in his car. Apparently we'd had a lucky escape, because it appeared The Wankerman was a rampant sexual predator who abducted young boys and molested them. He was reknowned, everyone knew it was a fact! The fact that he'd jsut driven past in a car was cited as definite proof that he was in fact cruising for young boys. We spent the rest of the way homne diving for cover behind walls and bushes every time a car of a similar colour came past.
Also there was an old gent who used to get about the place. He was a bit shabby and didn't speak much sense, but he was by no means a mad old tramp or anything of the sort. In fact he seemed quite pleasant. This was Whistler, so called because if you whistled at him it would set off something in his brain, and he would go wild, chase you down and kill you. This was embellished with stories of how he could run at 90mph, or how he once chased a kid for 5 hours...
B
Breezilla
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Homo Aves said:
Not that I've noticed. And every time I hear a kidnapping story on the news, it seems it always involves an "unmarked white van"...
CuriousIdent
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More worrying, Homo Aves, that you have thought about that... :lol:
Kondoru
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I have not!
Its just that normally I like `very` distinctive vehicles. (`not` that I have ever owned one bar that Mad Max truck I could not afford to run. But my ideal vehicle would be completley unique)
And I got to thinking about something that was at the opposite end of the spectrum. What could be less memorable than a white van. Perhaps with removalble graphics for extra cammaflage?
Its just that normally I like `very` distinctive vehicles. (`not` that I have ever owned one bar that Mad Max truck I could not afford to run. But my ideal vehicle would be completley unique)
And I got to thinking about something that was at the opposite end of the spectrum. What could be less memorable than a white van. Perhaps with removalble graphics for extra cammaflage?
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I lived in a tiny village, but was still warned about people trying to pick me up :shock: , but it was, and still is, so out of the way and quiet, that one day, when I was about 14, I was shocked to find a lorry pulling up behind me, asking for directions to a local farm. I directed the man and went on to my friends, She was out, so I set off back, and the lorry was still there, I asked the driver, who was , thinking back, youngish, in his twenties, if anything was wrong. And he asked me to get in the cab. :shock: I was still brought up to be very polite , so I said I had to get home and ran, I hid behind the church and retraced my steps back through woodland, and crossed the road further down and out of sight, to get home via more fields, but I was shocked, and frightened, it was a quiet winter day and no-one was around. He wasn't particularly threatening, and I think there was more on his mind something like consensual sex, than murder, ( I looked more mature than I was ) but it was the first time I was ever frightened of a stranger. And after that I did become much more aware of wandering around, head in clouds, and not noticing things.
Kondoru
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Really? I have got in with people to direct them (sometimes offerred it myself) and have never had any trouble. (leastways, never had any trouble that I couldnt deal with.)
Perhaps I just look the sort of person you dont mess with.
As for the article the phrase `much ado about nothing` springs to mind.
There was a time when I was a little worried (puzzled more like) and that was when a van spent the early hours outside my house with the enigine idling.
So I went outside and asked them what they were doing (with my machete tucked down my back..) and they politley told me that this was an easily found place to meet up with the boss. (news to me)
Since then I have noted several people do the same thing. turning off and not keeping me awake!
Perhaps I just look the sort of person you dont mess with.
As for the article the phrase `much ado about nothing` springs to mind.
There was a time when I was a little worried (puzzled more like) and that was when a van spent the early hours outside my house with the enigine idling.
So I went outside and asked them what they were doing (with my machete tucked down my back..) and they politley told me that this was an easily found place to meet up with the boss. (news to me)
Since then I have noted several people do the same thing. turning off and not keeping me awake!
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I'm reminded of this thread:
http://forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4567
perhaps all these abductors are merely tulpas, demons created by our societal subconcious
a friend of mine had a very real encounter with creepy-white-van-man a few months ago. she's 28 and lives alone in our large town/small city, but she's very small and looks about 16. Any way, walking home from work, she's about a block away when a scraggly guy drives up in a white van and asks for directions somewhere. She answers him, he says he doesn't know where that is. So now she's frustrated because she's trying to explain to some random guy on the street how to get around, and all she wants to do is go inside, when he proceeds to open the door and ask her to get in and navigate, but he's wearing NO PANTS! So she just says "gotta go!" and runs inside, phones the police, files a report, blah. A week later, the same guy drives up, and asks her how to get to the same place! She says she doesn't know, then runs inside. While he calls after her: "can i come in and use your phone?!"
luckily hasn't seen him since
i should note that while my friend is about the most innocent little thing on the planet, she has this weird ability to attract all manner of druggies, criminals, perverts and weirdos
http://forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4567
perhaps all these abductors are merely tulpas, demons created by our societal subconcious
a friend of mine had a very real encounter with creepy-white-van-man a few months ago. she's 28 and lives alone in our large town/small city, but she's very small and looks about 16. Any way, walking home from work, she's about a block away when a scraggly guy drives up in a white van and asks for directions somewhere. She answers him, he says he doesn't know where that is. So now she's frustrated because she's trying to explain to some random guy on the street how to get around, and all she wants to do is go inside, when he proceeds to open the door and ask her to get in and navigate, but he's wearing NO PANTS! So she just says "gotta go!" and runs inside, phones the police, files a report, blah. A week later, the same guy drives up, and asks her how to get to the same place! She says she doesn't know, then runs inside. While he calls after her: "can i come in and use your phone?!"
luckily hasn't seen him since
i should note that while my friend is about the most innocent little thing on the planet, she has this weird ability to attract all manner of druggies, criminals, perverts and weirdos
A
Anonymous
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CoffeeJedi said:
I have a friend who attracts that type. She calls it being flypaper for freaks.
edit: I deleted the laughing smilie because thinking further I realize it's not a laughing matter for your friend. That must be frightening.