The Continuing Insult To The English Language

Lb8535

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Is the cod Shakepearean quotation (as in 'Exuant stage right') spelt the way I've spelled it? I think it may also be a Pythonism... (ps I may have set a trap, in there)
It's in shakespeare, exuent as part of a stage direction when more than one person is exiting. It does appear in the original s's printed works.
 

Ermintruder

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As cursed portmanteaus, I would like to hear/see the words Brexit & Bremain tied to a log raft, then burned in the Atlantic. I theorise (in my standard febrile conspiracy-riven plebeian subsistance) that 'The B Word' (Br_x_t) may be doomed to disappear forever (I do hope so, even from dictionaries).

It arrived far too prepped and pert, like an over-ripe portion of sushi.

As soon as the world is possesed of another fresh new bisyllabic neologism, people should leave in quarantine for a few years, before letting it out on the street
 
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Yithian

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I say b), which seems to match the majority.

I always thought that c) was an accepted but uncommon variation on the standard (b), but I've been hearing it more and more in the media with increasingly vehement 'g-sounds', bordering on glottal stops.

I want to know if there is an age/regional/class divide.

And yes, the political "B—" word is part of the same phenomenon.
 

Lb8535

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I say b), which seems to match the majority.

I always thought that c) was an accepted but uncommon variation on the standard (b), but I've been hearing it more and more in the media with increasingly vehement 'g-sounds', bordering on glottal stops.

I want to know if there is an age/regional/class divide.

And yes, the political "B—" word is part of the same phenomenon.
I assume that c is my new york accent.
 

Krepostnoi

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I want to know if there is an age/regional/class divide.
I chose C. I'm 46, and hail originally from Bradford, UK. I have retained many features of my home town way of speaking, although inevitably moderated through being an EFL teacher. My dad made the leap from lorry driver to probation officer, my mum was a clerical worker, which I guess makes me second-generation middle-class.

And yes, the political "B—" word is part of the same phenomenon.
Now that I think about it, I think I do pronounce the B word with a hard K. It strikes me that, in my home town, we often pronounce "break" to rhyme with "deck" - think "ready brek". And thus you could posit a rhetorical question: what does the mooted departure do to our close connection with the EU? "Breaks it." (Note that here I offer no opinion either way on whether this break is a good or bad thing.) I wonder whether that has subconsciously affected my pronunciation.

Phonologically speaking, options A and D seem unlikely, as you'd be following a voiced velar plosive /g/ with an unvoiced alveolar fricative /s/. (Or vice-versa, vis-a-vis /k/ and /z/), and while the manner and place of articulation can - obviously - change within consonant clusters, the use (or lack) of voice tends to stay constant.
 
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Yithian

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Phonologically speaking, options A and D seem unlikely, as you'd be following a voiced velar plosive /g/ with an unvoiced alveolar fricative /s/. (Or vice-versa, vis-a-vis /k/ and /z/), and while the manner and place of articulation can - obviously - change within consonant clusters, the use (or lack) of voice tends to stay constant.
Agreed.

When testing the poll options, both of those had to be forced--and doing so tended to 'break the word in two'.
 

Ermintruder

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Nix...!

I understood that We (der Einweltanglosprachenvolk) were averse to using Latinate (or indeed any Johnny Foreigner) plurals on 'loan' words. I thought that the current fashionable argot demanded nothing more nor less than a simple "s" (though, please, dear God, not catastrophically-appended via any single surplus apostrophe)

If I were to refer (certainement dans Bradford or Bannockburn) to sports stadia rather than stadiums, or even write about employment bureaux as opposed to employment bureaus, I might find myself tied to a large copy of Beowulf and dragged through the streets of Norland until I were very verra sorry.

Iff'n it'd still been back late last century, continental et classic pluralisation might've been acceptable. People what speak'n'rite proper now have to do so very quietly, to avoid accusations of being one o'them interlecturals (coarse I is jus jokin lyke lol brb)

in my home town, we often pronounce
'...things proper'

@Krepostnoi, I'm not sure that you'll necessarily be aware of the (almost non self-parody) recalibration of Yoksheer accentualisation, into being nearly a varient version of RP (I exaggerate, but only a bit). The Game Of Thrones effect, and the likely future canonisation of Sean Bean, all conspires to make the tongue of the dales perhaps a dominant spoken style in Bringlish broadcasting and the meedja generally
 
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brownmane

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In respect to pronouncing words differently, my Irish born, but Scottish raised MIL pronounced "medium" as "meejum" (accent on first syllable). I pronounce it with all vowels sounded and a hard D sound.

It did take me about 3 years to understand what she was saying in her, what I thought to be, thick Scottish accent. Then she once was out with me and ran into another Scot and they started conversing with one another. Wow! That was thick!
 

Ermintruder

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I support the notion of a living and evolving language.
So do I. In fact, I recently invented a word, entirely by accident (in that I knew exactly what I needed to mean, and said it....not realising that it didn't exist). I mean I invented it in mid-babble, here on this forum.
I bet you'd be able to understand what I think I was meaning by the word, in general gist.

And Google's search-engine appears to think the word is unique, as well, since it only cites my instance of it, and (curiously) shows our Forteana Forum members' avatars, as relevant related images.

I might use it again, here, as a citation. But then it'll lose its uniquenessness...presumably.

where people no longer consider exotic plurals to be desiderata
I think exotic plurals and language varients are highly-desirable, but I'm sufficiently-realistic/pessimistic to realise that (at best, in most cases) they'll rarely ever achieve pandemotic uptake.

(Oops...I thought I just did it again, there...but I didn't)



Then she once was out with me and ran into another Scot and they started conversing with one another
Yep, we do do that (Scottish people, I mean....and, presumably, MILs as well)

Wow! That was thick!
As I've rattled-on about before (here and elsewhere) many people totally-misunderstand spoken language in Scotland.

There is the following set of languages that are relevant to Scotland:

1. English (with or without a Scottish accent or intonation, but with zero Scots vocabulary or syntax)

2. Scots Gaelic (this is very-nearly Irish Gaelidgh, and indeed is just called Irish in Ireland)

3. Scots English (this is English, invariably with some version of a Scottish accent, but with a significant proportion of Scots vocabulary and some traces of Scots syntax)

4. Broad Scots / Lallands Scots ('Lowland Scottish Language')- this is NOT a dialect of English, but a seperate language varient from it (with common roots into what we now call Old English). The reason it can sound deceptively-familiar-yet-incomprensible in equal measure to mainstream English speakers is because it can be closely-related in many archaic or unexpected ways.

Most people in Scotland tend to be Case3 (decreasing), followed Case1 (increasing), followed by Case4 (minimal, decreasing & neglected) finally followed by Case3 (vestigial, stable, and protected)
 

Krepostnoi

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to make the tongue of the dales perhaps a dominant spoken style
'bout bloody time, an' all. But you're right, I've not lived in the UK since 2015, so this development is new to me.
Oh, I never doubted for a second that you do. Profuse apologies: my allusion to tantra-flingers was aimed solely at the notional nhabitants of Bradford and Bannockburn, although my trajectory was obviously off. Despite being someone who is supposed to be a professional communicator, I didn't make that nearly clear enough first go around. Sorry.
 

Lb8535

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Aha I knew it wasn't. First found use of tantrum was 18th century England. Plural is tantrums.

However, indulging in public tantra would be an excellent move these days.
 

brownmane

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Yep, we do do that (Scottish people, I mean....and, presumably, MILs as well))
Lol. I didn't really finish my thought. My comment about "thick" was that when she spoke to someone who had been raised in Scotland, it surprised that her accent got thicker and I really had to concentrate on the conversation. They started talking about a train - the Royal Scot, or something - that they'd both ridden and had lunch on at some point in their lives. Both were strangers to each other, but they enjoyed reminiscing about Scotland.
 

Ermintruder

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it surprised that her accent got thicker and I really had to concentrate on the conversation
This effect is an ever-diminishing factor, and may ultimately vanish, due to the inexorable advance of both English & American English into Scotland. If I was speaking with someone who was a broad Scots/Lallans speaker, it could be less than 5% comprehensible to an English speaker (and perhaps only a few percent more-understandable to my own children)
https://www.scotslanguage.com/The_Scots_Poems_of_Sheena_Blackhall/The_Spik_o_the_Lan_1986_Rainbow_Publishing/Wirds
Wirds bi Sheena Blackhall
Crusty, compact as a crab
The thorn o' wir hale confab,
We canna lay hauns on't easy
Niver say dab.

Ruggin compliments frae us
Is nae mean feat —
Pairtin a sookin bairn
Frae its mither's teat.

Awkward as new sheen,
Libbit labsters, Teuch tae crack.
We loe in sma letters,
Aathing in thummelfus,
Ay haudin something back
 

hunck

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I was listening to the radio this morning & one man managed to pronounce 'th' in 3 ways in the space of a 10 second snippet.

In consecutive words he said "wiv somefing". He later pronounced 'then' as you might expect. It occurred to me he could've used 'den' to complete the set.

Struck me as a bit odd.
 

Yithian

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A fascinating insight as to why English as a language is flawed & deficient (no: this isn't about spelling)
Almost every example in that video is of something that English speakers do differently, not of things that cannot be effectively achieved through English. The main one is what many languages do with moods, cases and long lists of hyper-specific and culturally embedded pronouns, English tackles through lexical choices, word order and tone. English (forgive the irony) is the Swiss army knife of modern languages, which along with the various accidents of history is why it is so widely used. No doubt other languages achieve specific communicative acts more concisely, but what they gain on the swings they lose on the roundabouts.

The rest of the chap's material seems to be how to simplify and make English more like a random bunch of other languages; if it were to adopt all those features cited, it would be even more difficult for non-natives to learn.

The part on politeness made me cringe. I have some experience in a second language with multiple levels of grammatical politeness and formality; it's complex but managable. In English, however, these things are massively sophisticated and so heavily socially-embedded that they defy reduction to a set of endings or a switch of pronouns. This all destined to follow the dodo, of course, but if you can speak and write formal English, you can baffle, reassure, flatter, insult, condescend to or praise a similarly educated interlocutor with your mode of expression while communicating the same core data.

Edit: reduplication doesn't stick in English because it sounds childish and hence amusing to our ears. Fun to throw a reduplicative phrase in once in a while, but we'll sound like babbling chimps to our own ears it it ever became a grammatical feature.
 

Yithian

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On another topic:

One of these days I will accept that the language has changed and that “regularly” does indeed mean “frequently” or “routinely”. But today is not that day. We used it many times last week, and in most cases I thought it was the wrong word.

In a report about EU rules on labelling Israeli products, we said the EU “regularly notes that Israel’s settlements in the West Bank are illegal under international law”. We did not mean that the European Commission issues a press release on the third Wednesday of each month: we meant “repeatedly”.


Full but paywalled article:
https://www.independent.co.uk/indep...egularly-guide-style-frequently-a9204656.html
 

henry

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repeatedly could be over a short period, regularly suggests a longer window of observation, routinely suggests as part of, or according to a ( defined ? ) routine ... so it reads okay to me
 

henry

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ive repeatedly asked you to do the dishes, but you havent done them (sounds like during this morning, or over last day or so but not chronic and generally the same set of dishes)

ive regularly asked you you to do the dishes, but you havent done them (sounds like there have been multiple instances over a longer period, thus a malaise)

ive routinely asked you to do the dishes, but you havent done them (sounds wrong)
 

escargot

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ive repeatedly asked you to do the dishes, but you havent done them (sounds like during this morning, or over last day or so but not chronic and generally the same set of dishes)

ive regularly asked you you to do the dishes, but you havent done them (sounds like there have been multiple instances over a longer period, thus a malaise)

ive routinely asked you to do the dishes, but you havent done them (sounds wrong)
There's also nuance. For example, saying you've routinely asked someone to do the dishes suggests it happens every day without fail and is a. part of everyday life and b. probably by now grounds for divorce.
 
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