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The Death Of Dr David Kelly

I am of the persuasion that he probably did know what they thought he knew.

I mean they might not have known for certain, but perhaps the mere possibility given sufficient probability based on the given circumstances might have spooked them so much that they decided that even if they didn't know for certain if he knew - then they knew enough to know they couldn't take the chance of him knowing and leaving him alive.

So they killed him and made it look like a suicide - something we have gathered they are probably very good at; and do a lot.

That said - what did they think he knew?

Wasn't to do with WMD's by themselves, as he already made his reports and those were known to the public, there were a lot of stories about his opinions re WMD's.

So was it WMD's as part of something else - a chain of things that he might of known, of which at least one of those things was worth killing him for if they thought he knew?
 
coldelephant said:
So they killed him and made it look like a suicide - something we have gathered they are probably very good at; and do a lot.

A circular argument surely, if they are so competent at 'arranging' suicides and the fact that we are not as a rule normally suspicious of suicide verdicts means that they clearly are, why did they make such a piss poor job of this one?

I have to say if the 'thing' that he knew that got him 'killed' was not to do with WMDs then how did he find out about it and why was it so explosive that it was neccessary to bump him off, unless they are indeed knocking people off at the rate of knots as you suggest. The intelligence community is by it's nature compartmentalised, need to know is not a nicety observed for tradition's sake, it's a very real safety measure in place to limit both the numbers of people with exposure to intelligence (and thus it's possibility of leakage) but also the safety of the individuals involved(it's not worth kidnapping someone who only knows ten percent of the intelligence you need). There is no moment at which you reach 'Top Secret' and get handed a dossier of all the juicy stuff you didn't know before, you know only what it is neccessary for you to know.

Even the Sir John Scarletts of this world probably only have enough of an overview to brief the JIC whilst knowing next to diddly about day to day activities and specifics.

So going back to Dr Kelly, what could he within his role have been privvy to that was so explosive as to require his immediate and frankly rather sloppy faked suicide?

And no I'm not asking for specifics before anyone holds this up as another example of unrealistic expectations from a Conspiracy debunker, rather just posing the question as a discussion point.
 
Heckler20 said:
Even the Sir John Scarletts of this world probably only have enough of an overview to brief the JIC whilst knowing next to diddly about day to day activities and specifics.

Although, he is our direct contact with the Mysterons.
 
Heckler20 said:
...

So going back to Dr Kelly, what could he within his role have been privvy to that was so explosive as to require his immediate and frankly rather sloppy faked suicide?

And no I'm not asking for specifics before anyone holds this up as another example of unrealistic expectations from a Conspiracy debunker, rather just posing the question as a discussion point.
Perhaps, it was less a case of what he 'knew' and more about a perceived betrayal of trust?
 
It's only a slopply faked suicide if you can prove it was murder - if you cannot then it must have been a damn good faked suicide.

Worked didn't it?
 
This is getting silly

who has the ability to make the Hutton Enquiry fudge over the facts ?

do the Iraqi's have that in their arsenal as well ?
 
techybloke666 said:
This is getting silly

who has the ability to make the Hutton Enquiry fudge over the facts ?

do the Iraqi's have that in their arsenal as well ?

Well, sort of. It's arguably not in the interests of either Iraq or Britain for the truth to be known. The Hutton Inquiry may have chosen to ignore the reality for the sake of events in Iraq rather than because the British carried out.
 
So you think It's a conspiracy then Ted ?

to cover up the true reason Kelly was murdered.

anyway

if it could have been proven that the Iraqi's killed Kelly to the british public the government would have got more support for the war !!!

Instead of the fictisious 45 minute crap.
 
techybloke666 said:
So you think It's a conspiracy then Ted ?

to cover up the true reason Kelly was murdered.

Not neccessarily. I'm not entirely convinced by this story. However, if it were true then it would be a conspiracy though a more benevolent one than many might have expected or hoped for.

techybloke666 said:
anyway

if it could have been proven that the Iraqi's killed Kelly to the british public the government would have got more support for the war !!!

Instead of the fictisious 45 minute crap.

Well the war was technically over and the 45 minute claim made far in advance of the war actually taking place so I'd doubt it. That aside the alleged murderers were anti-Saddam Iraqis so it's difficult to see how this would help the cause particularly since he was supposedly going to expose their deception re weapons of mass destruction.
 
techybloke666 said:
This is getting silly

who has the ability to make the Hutton Enquiry fudge over the facts ?

do the Iraqi's have that in their arsenal as well ?

I'm surprised you don't seem to remember the Hutton inquiry was referred to as a whitewash. ;)
 
Indeed I do remember Cold !

Ted I guess you are firmly in the suicide as the police said camp then ?

also if you remeber back Ted

It was the 45 minute crap that Kelly was being grilled over.

any good publicity even now the governement can drum up, in defence of Iraq murdering Kelly would be a boon, as the Iraq war is still very sour indeed in the electorate's eyes.
 
'I feared I'd end up dead in the woods like Dr Kelly,' says biological warfare expert who criticised Britain and U.S.
By GLEN OWEN and OLIVER WADESON -

Fighting back: Jill Dekker was given special protection by the Belgian government after a series of 'sinister' incidents
An EU expert on biological warfare has told how she fears ending up 'dead in the woods' like scientist Dr David Kelly after an alleged campaign of intimidation by members of MI6 and the CIA.


Jill Dekker, a bio-defence expert based in Brussels, has reported a string of sinister incidents – including the parking of a hearse outside her house – after making a speech critical of British and American policy in the Middle East.

Her claims are included in a new book by Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker which argues that Dr Kelly was murdered to silence his criticism of the grounds for going to war in Iraq.

American-born Dr Dekker has been billed at security conferences as the director of the 'public health preparedness programme' at the European Homeland Security Association (EHSA), a security think tank.

She was placed under the protection of the Belgian government after reporting a series of sinister incidents earlier this year.

The Belgians confirm that they mounted a three-month protection operation earlier this year for Dr Dekker, who has advised the European Commission on bio-terrorism issues, but refuse to be drawn on the extent to which her fears were wellfounded or why the protection was eventually lifted.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770
 
techybloke666 said:
Indeed I do remember Cold !

Ted I guess you are firmly in the suicide as the police said camp then ?

Probably but I wouldn't say 'firmly'.

techybloke666 said:
also if you remeber back Ted

It was the 45 minute crap that Kelly was being grilled over.

any good publicity even now the governement can drum up, in defence of Iraq murdering Kelly would be a boon, as the Iraq war is still very sour indeed in the electorate's eyes.

Except this claim is being made by an opposition MP and a critic of the government's actions. It also indirectly brings the plausibility of their claims back into the spotlight and their active part in a conspiracy to lie to the public on at least one occasion. In fact this claim would confirm the incompetence, at the very least, of the government.

If there was an overwhelming public belief that Kelly was murdered by the government or that that belief was so persistent as to constitiuere a serious threat to them then there might be an argument that this was beneficial to the government. However, there's no compelling case for them having to fabricate this claim (which, technically, they haven't even espoused let alone confirmed themselves).
 
If the public strongly suspect the government of foul play (scandal after scandal, the Hutton inquiry labled a 'whitewash', the fumbling of the John de Menezes case, government not paying attention to their intelligence or saying intelligence said one thing when they said more than that.

The inquiries and enquiries are all embarrassing for a government that loses billions of pounds of British army equipment and gear on a ship that goes missing en route to the Gulf.

Or the suspicion raised by the British armed forces that components of chemical weapsons may have been stored on ships in the Gulf and might end up out of their reach.

Dr Kelly dies, and was dead in very suspicious circumstances, there's no proof he was murdered and the official line is suicide because there is no evidence it was murder; but it looked suspicious from the media reports.

Also why was the intelligence misreported or misrepresented by the government and then investigated by a peer who supports Labour?
 
WMD dossier 'should be published'

An early draft of the government's infamous dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction must be made public, the Information Tribunal says.
The document, by Foreign Office press chief John Williams, was an unpublished draft of the dossier which was unveiled by Tony Blair on 24 September 2002.

The Foreign Office had appealed against the Information Commissioner's order that it should release the draft.

It is not yet clear whether the Foreign Office will appeal to the High Court.

Weapons expert Dr David Kelly was found dead shortly after being named as the source of a BBC report suggesting the government's dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was "sexed up".

Balance of disclosure

The task of investigating the "circumstances surrounding the death" of Dr Kelly was then handed to Lord Hutton who, following a two month inquiry, concluded the scientist had taken his own life.

The Freedom of Information request for Mr Williams' draft to be made public was made by researcher Christopher Ames.

The Foreign Office (FCO) refused to hand over the document, saying that its publication would "inhibit the free and frank provision of advice and the free and frank exchange of views for the purposes of deliberation".

Mr Ames complained to the Information Commissioner, who concluded that the balance "was in favour of disclosure".

He said there was "a strong public interest in disclosure in order better to inform the public as the process followed in preparing the dossier".

The FCO's appeal against that decision was rejected by the Information Tribunal, which said: "We do not accept that we should, in effect, treat the Hutton Report as the final word on the subject..."

And it concluded: "Information has been placed before us, which was not before Lord Hutton, which may lead to questions as to whether the Williams' draft in fact played a greater part in influencing the drafting of the dossier than has previously been supposed."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7205329.stm
 
Why did a heat-seeking helicopter fly over the exact spot
where David Kelly’s body was found - and detect nothing?

By Miles Goslett
Last updated at 7:55 AM on 24th August 2008

Police failed to find the body of missing Government scientist David Kelly despite using a helicopter with heat-seeking equipment and flying over the exact spot where his corpse was later discovered.

Dr Kelly’s body was found in July 2003 at the height of the controversy over Britain’s invasion of Iraq.

Unusually, no inquest into his death has ever been held. Instead, the Hutton Inquiry was set up by Tony Blair to investigate the circumstances surrounding his death.

In January 2004, the inquiry concluded that the weapons inspector had committed suicide after he was unmasked as the source of a BBC report alleging Labour had ‘sexed up’ its dossier on weapons of mass destruction.

He died after swallowing up to 29 co-proxamol painkillers and cutting his left wrist with a knife.

But now details of the police search for Dr Kelly in the hours after he was reported missing have raised questions about why his body was not discovered sooner.

These include confirmation of the route the police twin-engined Eurocopter EC 135 took and the times it was airborne.

The flight summary – released under the Freedom of Information Act – confirms that, at around 2.50am on July 18, the helicopter flew over the patch of woodland where Dr Kelly was later discovered at 8.30am by a volunteer search party.

It is situated at Harrowden Hill, a mile from his home in Oxfordshire.

July 18, 2003
1.15am...The latest time Dr Kelly could have died
2.50am...Helicopter with termal imaging equipment(below) flies over copse where his body was found - and fails to spot him
8.30am...Dr Kelly is finally found by searcher on the ground

The development is significant because the pathologist who attended the scene told the Hutton Inquiry that the latest time Dr Kelly could have died was 1.15am.

It means his body would have been lying in the woods for at least 90 minutes – raising questions about how well the thermal-imaging equipment was working.

Despite arriving at the woods at midday, pathologist Dr Nicholas Hunt said he only took the temperature of Dr Kelly’s body at 7.15pm.

This suggests it would have been warmer than the 24C (75F) recorded, and therefore even more visible to a heat-seeking device.

The revelations are likely to fuel the many conspiracy theories surrounding Dr Kelly’s death; in particular that, for some reason, his body was moved into the woods after his death.

It also adds to speculation that he was the victim of a Government plot to silence him.

Evidence given to the Hutton Inquiry by Assistant Chief Constable Michael Page, of Thames Valley Police, confirmed the helicopter ‘had made intermittent searches around the area of the house using heat-seeking equipment’.

However, Lord Hutton did not ask Mr Page for specific details of where the helicopter had flown.

The official flight summary, which was released by Bedfordshire Police and Thames Valley Police, the forces that co-own the helicopter, states: ‘Area search included bridlepaths from Longworth north to the River Thames east to Newbridge and back to Kingston Bagpuize.’

The Longworth-Thames leg took the helicopter directly over Harrowden Hill at about 2.50am on July 18.

A police source also disclosed that the LEO II thermal-imaging device used was manufactured by American defence company Tecna Corporation and is capable of reading ‘a car number plate three-quarters of a mile away from a height of 1,000ft’.

A spokesman for Thames Valley Police said: ‘Everything we have to say on the matter is fully documented and is a matter of public record. We have no further comment to make.’

Bedfordshire Police said it was not able to confirm whether the equipment was working properly on July 18.

Norman Baker, the Liberal Democrat MP who has written a book investigating Dr Kelly’s death, said: ‘Every violent or unusual death warrants a proper inquiry. It is astonishing there has never been an inquest into Dr Kelly’s death.

‘There is no doubt in my mind he was murdered. This information proves his body was not where Lord Hutton thinks it was. The question is, where was it?’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... thing.html
 
I'm not sure that thermal imaging equipment would be much help in finding a dead body - because dead bodies usually have no body heat...
 
Depending on how long the person had been dead, the thermal imaging equipment could certainly find a corpse.

A body would still be warmer than its surroundings for some time after death, depending on various factors such as thickness of clothing, wet/dry or warm/cold weather etc. A body dead for a few days in summer would be full of heat-generating insect life.

So it's a little strange that this particular body wasn't found in this way, especially as it was supposed to be 'fresh', ie not dead long enough to have cooled down.
 
But it was mid summer, it's possible the body temperature would be similar to the surrounding area!
Scarg, insects are cold blooded, they don't generate heat, they acquire it.
 
It's a thermal imager, not a magic wand. If a body has been cooling for a few hours it may be far from obvious (were they looking for a dead body at that stage) and IIRC this was in woodland where you don't always get a cllear field of view. I bet they quite often miss things like this on the first pass. Not brilliantly competant, perhaps, but not really a signg of a cover-up.
 
Pete, we're talking about maggots. They do generate heat.

Amd yes the thermal imaging jobbie could pick up a slowly cooling corpse in high summer. It's what they do.
 
Thermal imagers can see through brick walls !!!

a few whispy branches would not stop them seeing the body at its temp 1:15am ish.

perhaps the answer is the body wasnt there to be seen ?????

put there later maybe ?
 
It's a thermal imager, not a magic wand. If a body has been cooling for a few hours it may be far from obvious (were they looking for a dead body at that stage) and IIRC this was in woodland where you don't always get a cllear field of view. I bet they quite often miss things like this on the first pass. Not brilliantly competant, perhaps, but not really a signg of a cover-up.

not on its own no !!!

but what about all the other things wembley ?
 
Five years on from Hutton and we STILL haven't been told the truth about the war based on lies
Last updated at 10:25 AM on 29th January 2009

Yesterday marked a sombre and important anniversary. A full five years have passed since the Hutton Report sensationally acquitted Tony Blair and his senior advisers of any wrongdoing in the death of Dr David Kelly.

Lord Hutton ruled both that Tony Blair was guiltless in the death of the government scientist and that Downing Street had not 'sexed up' the case for the Iraq War.

This was the crucial verdict that breathed fresh life into the Blair premiership, enabling him to fight and win the 2005 General Election.

It was the ultimate vindication for Tony Blair's communications chief Alastair Campbell, who called a special press conference to declare that 'the Prime Minister told the truth, the Government told the truth, and I told the truth. The BBC from the chairman and Director-General down did not'.

That day, BBC chairman Gavin Davies and Director-General Greg Dyke resigned - and the BBC was plunged into the greatest crisis in its history.

In the five years that have passed since then, however, almost every single one of Lord Hutton's conclusions have collapsed.

It can now be shown that, far from telling the truth as he claimed, Alastair Campbell repeatedly lied to the House of Commons over the Iraq war.

Even more remarkable, it emerged that the British Government had been warned before the invasion of 2003 that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction - and therefore that the Blair administration knowingly embarked on the war on the basis of a lie.

In fact, Lord Hutton failed even in his most basic of tasks, which was to fulfil his remit to examine 'the circumstances surrounding the death of David Kelly'.

Only a tiny proportion of his 700-page report was devoted to examining the weapons expert's cause of death - and even these can be shown at best to be complacent and sloppily researched, and the conclusions questionable.

Lord Hutton ruled that David Kelly's death in lonely woodland near his Oxfordshire home was due to two principal reasons. He said that the first was 'bleeding from incised wounds to the left wrist, which Dr Kelly inflicted upon himself with the knife found beside the body.'

The second, so the judge ruled, was 'ingestion of an excess amount of copraxamol tablets.' In fact, many medical experts believe that it is almost inconceivable that Dr Kelly died in this way.

Normally, when someone dies from slashing their wrists, a massive amount of blood is found at the scene of the death. Yet there was hardly any blood around Dr Kelly's body, either on his body or on the surrounding bushes and grass.

Furthermore, the pathologists who carried out the postmortem reported that only one artery had been severed in Dr Kelly's wrist - and that cutting it would not normally lead to a life-threatening loss of blood.

According to Dr David Halpin, former senior orthopaedic and trauma surgeon at Torbay Hospital, a cut to this artery could never have caused death.

He told the Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker, who conducted his own investigation into Dr Kelly's death, that 'a transacted artery, one that has been completely cut, retracts immediately, and thus stops bleeding'.

More suspicious still was Lord Hutton's easy acceptance of the claim that Dr Kelly had killed himself by taking tablets.

In fact, medical tests showed that the dead man's stomach contained only the equivalent of one-fifth of a tablet in his stomach.

It is also interesting that the half-litre bottle of Evian water found beside Dr Kelly's body had not been fully drunk - highly unlikely if he really had taken 29 tablets to kill himself, as Lord Hutton accepted.

Yet Hutton took none of these suspicious factors into account with his bland account of Dr Kelly's death.

Dr Kelly may, of course, have died in the way Lord Hutton suggested - but it was deeply unprofessional of him simply to brush aside so many suspicious factors that might have led to a different conclusion.

The second major problem with the Hutton Report concerns the extremely respectful hearing he gave to Tony Blair, Alastair Campbell and other Downing Street officials.

Lord Hutton himself said that 'the evidence of the Prime Minister and the senior officials was strong and consistent with the surrounding circumstances'.

Yet it can now be seen that there were huge problems with the evidence given by Tony Blair and others. In particular, it has since emerged that one of the key witnesses, Alastair Campbell, was an outright liar - and that this can be proved by evidence presented to the Hutton Inquiry itself.

Campbell lied repeatedly when he appeared before the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, when MPs investigated the failure of Allied forces to find Weapons of Mass Destruction in the aftermath of the invasion of Iraq.

These lies included Campbell's entirely false assertion to MPs that he had never apologised to intelligence chiefs after the publication of his so-called 'dodgy' dossier on WMD of February 2003.

In fact, he later admitted in a private hearing of the Commons Intelligence and Security Committee that he had made just such an apology.

But Campbell's most serious lie came when he told MPs that the infamous statement that Saddam Hussein was capable of launching a WMD attack within 45 minutes had never changed in the drafting process.

Campbell himself, in fact, had asked for the wording to be changed - as evidence to the Hutton Inquiry showed - so he was being quite exceptionally dishonest when he told the Foreign Affairs Committee that it had remained the same.

Lord Hutton apparently chose to ignore this clear evidence of dishonesty when reaching his conclusions.

The final and most shattering evidence that Lord Hutton's acquittal of the British Government in his report was hopelessly misguided has emerged only very recently indeed.

In the final weeks before the invasion of Iraq, a senior MI6 officer called Michael Shipster met the head of Iraqi intelligence at a secret meeting in Jordan.

The Iraqi intelligence chief, Tahir Jalil Habbush, gave Shipster assurances that Iraq possessed no nuclear, chemical, biological or any other weapons of mass destruction.
Michael Shipster at once brought this information back to London. Tony Blair was informed, and Richard Dearlove, then head of MI6, was so impressed by it that he flew to Washington to brief George Tenet, the head of the CIA, who in turn briefed George W. Bush.

This information, based on interviews with key players including Dearlove, was published late last year in a book by the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Ron Suskind, called The Way Of The World.

It caused a storm in the United States, but its conclusions have largely been ignored in the British Press.

The implications of this book are immense. Tony Blair told Parliament and the British people that Britain went to war to rid Saddam Hussein of weapons of mass destruction - yet he seems to have been told in advance by the Iraqi intelligence chief that these WMD did not exist. The war - in short - was based on a fraud.


As every day passes, Lord Hutton's judgment that Tony Blair and his leading officials were men of integrity looks more and more flawed. Five years on, his verdict has fallen to pieces. Britain now urgently needs a full-scale inquiry into the causes and prosecution of the Iraq War.

The first step should be the publication - strenuously resisted by the Government - of minutes from two key Cabinet meetings in the build-up to war.

This week, an Information Tribunal ruled that the documents must be made available, on the basis of exceptional public interest. That has infuriated ministers, who are now expected to appeal to the High Court to have the ruling overturned.

Far from resolving the many flaws in Hutton's report with full and frank disclosure about the facts surrounding Dr David Kelly's death, it is all too obvious why the Brown government is determined to keep them concealed for as long as possible.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... -lies.html
 
David Kelly

There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that Dr. Kelly was MURDERED, on the orders of The Ministry of Certain Things, Why?!, because he knew the truth about WMD and Iraq lack of same, thus rendering Tony Bliars need to back muppet Bush and go to war illogical and ilegal and downright sinfull. The blood will be on Blairs hands till he goes to his great reward, and I dont mean the lecture circuit.
 
Re: David Kelly

Tangaroa42 said:
There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that Dr. Kelly was MURDERED, on the orders of The Ministry of Certain Things, Why?!, because he knew the truth about WMD and Iraq lack of same, thus rendering Tony Bliars need to back muppet Bush and go to war illogical and ilegal and downright sinfull. The blood will be on Blairs hands till he goes to his great reward, and I dont mean the lecture circuit.
Don't beat about the bush (no pun intended), tell us what you really think! :D
 
This is one conspiracy theory I actually give some credence to, I think he was killed.
 
His controversial death was a defining moment of the Blair era, almost bringing the Government to its knees. Now the suicide of David Kelly, the Iraq weapons inspector, is to take centre stage at Scottish Opera, with a provocative production examining the fraught moments before he took his own life.

Death of a Scientist, by the award-winning Edinburgh playwright Zinnie Harris, with music by her composer husband John, is part of Scottish Opera's Five:15 series. The scheme pairs leading writers with composers to create 15-minute chamber pieces, which may be developed into longer productions.

Last year's productions, featuring work by writers such as Ian Rankin and Alexander McCall Smith, were a critical and commercial hit, with Scottish Opera adding an extra night to satisfy audience demand. The latest works will be premiered in Glasgow this month.

Dr Kelly killed himself after being exposed as the source of a BBC report which claimed that the Government had “sexed up” a dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD). His body was found in a woodland area close to his home in Oxfordshire on July 18, 2003, a few days after he had appeared before a Commons select committee. He had taken an overdose of painkillers and cut his left wrist.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 679754.ece

reinforcing the myth of suicide ?

bit like that farsical documentary that was on TV last year I seem to remember.

would be good if someone made a proper documentary intersperced with dialogue from the Hutton Enquiry and eye witness reports, instead of this what the media wants to to see crap.

Maybe PC coe could play himself and actually answer the questions that should have been asked at the first enquiry.
 
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