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The Dinosaurs Of The Lega-Warega People: Racial Memories Or Eyewitness Accounts?

teri107

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In its own modest way this article is fully self contained. That is, I make my claims about science and evolution, present my own views about dinosaur and human interaction (and 65 million years) and provide “evidence” for my claims right here within the article; with photographs. If you choose to read this–hopefully for some of you- you will be-in effect- taking the Red pill :0).

Edit: Suspected article here:
http://new.s8int.com/2016/06/17/the...eople-racial-memories-or-eyewitness-accounts/ - Yith.
 

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In its own modest way this article is fully self contained. That is, I make my claims about science and evolution, present my own views about dinosaur and human interaction (and 65 million years) and provide “evidence” for my claims right here within the article; with photographs. If you choose to read this–hopefully for some of you- you will be-in effect- taking the Red pill :0).
...er..what article?
 
What are you gents talking about? Article what does this mean? Red pills? I've heard of the Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy.
 
In its own modest way this article is fully self contained. That is, I make my claims about science and evolution, present my own views about dinosaur and human interaction (and 65 million years) and provide “evidence” for my claims right here within the article; with photographs. If you choose to read this–hopefully for some of you- you will be-in effect- taking the Red pill :0).
Hi teri, please post a link to the article so we can read it.
Thanks!
 
I have added a link to what seems to be the article cited in the first post.

Teri107, feel free to correct it if I am wrong.
 
I'm so glad we finally got that link.
 
I have added a link to what seems to be the article cited in the first post.

Teri107, feel free to correct it if I am wrong.
Interesting read
 
It's an interesting read, but ...

I'm pretty confident your reference images are of stylized pangolins.

The Lega people live within the geographical habitat / distribution range of multiple pangolin species, most of which are classified as 'vulnerable' owing to human exploitation. The figurines (as well as masks and other artworks) are strongly associated with the Lega Bwami cultural system. Pangolins and other animals have symbolic meanings within Bwami, and their figurines serve as representational devices supporting (e.g.) education on morals and ethics. For example, a pangolin claw is a common symbol connoting a warning.

In any case, all images of similar figurines I've located on art museum sites describe them as pangolins.

Not dinosaurs, but quite remarkably weird in their own right ...
 
Where do you start with that?


Chameleons, they seem to be the obvious place to me.


1)" Note the triangular wedge shaped heads"


OK,


parsons_chameleon.jpg


That fits.


2) Are there any chameleons where the Lega live?


Yes, plenty.


3) Is the chameleon a significant, or popular subject in traditional African Art?


Yes. Here's an excerpt from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. There are plenty more if you just Google.


"For example, diviners often recommend rings, pendants, bracelets, or anklets featuring chameleons and other animals considered intermediaries between human and spirit realms"


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/divi/hd_divi.htm


4) Are the lega known to make chameleon statuettes?


YvSo4kkzpFf9gcaWEUEBFuerTBmUV4dwLfjMjY4hURjFb7PlYAkrY7-Z9WeoX5Ga9kLxgk8=s170


Yes, look, here's one now.


5) Do any of the statuettes shown in the article have any other chameleon like characteristics?


Again yes, look at the distinctive arched backs in the majority of them.


6) Lastly, what do they look more like? Chameleons or a rag bag of Triassic and Jurassic fauna?
 
Where do you start with that?


Chameleons, they seem to be the obvious place to me.


1)" Note the triangular wedge shaped heads"


OK,


parsons_chameleon.jpg


That fits.


2) Are there any chameleons where the Lega live?


Yes, plenty.


3) Is the chameleon a significant, or popular subject in traditional African Art?


Yes. Here's an excerpt from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. There are plenty more if you just Google.


"For example, diviners often recommend rings, pendants, bracelets, or anklets featuring chameleons and other animals considered intermediaries between human and spirit realms"


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/divi/hd_divi.htm


4) Are the lega known to make chameleon statuettes?


YvSo4kkzpFf9gcaWEUEBFuerTBmUV4dwLfjMjY4hURjFb7PlYAkrY7-Z9WeoX5Ga9kLxgk8=s170


Yes, look, here's one now.


5) Do any of the statuettes shown in the article have any other chameleon like characteristics?


Again yes, look at the distinctive arched backs in the majority of them.


6) Lastly, what do they look more like? Chameleons or a rag bag of Triassic and Jurassic fauna?
Finding a prehistoric identification for poorly represented animals in tribal art is always likely to be easy because of the shear number of different forms that can be found throughout history. The funniest thing about the article is that it makes a big deal of the similarities between the carvings and prehistoric creatures when those similarities don't exist. But, like most creationist literature, it's pitched at a level for convincing those who already believe or deeply want to, and will know little beyond what they're told by other creationists.

My first thought was they look as much like ordinary crocodiles or lizards as they do any of those prehistoric animals.
 
That's certainly true.
You mean you don't believe the Lega-Warega people are not witness to the great sauropod "mokele-mbembe" that lurks in the Congo's Likouuala uncharted wilderness?
 
You mean you don't believe the Lega-Warega people are not witness to the great sauropod "mokele-mbembe" that lurks in the Congo's Likouuala uncharted wilderness?

The problem with making this association lies in the fact that the central area for alleged mokele-mbembe sightings (e.g., Lake Tele region) is 500 to 1000 miles west / northwest of the Lega peoples' historical range.
 
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The problem with making this association lies in the fact that the central area for alleged mokele-mbembe sightings (e.g., Lake Tele region) is 500 to 1000 miles west / northwest of the Lega peoples' historical range.
The other problem is using a creature dubiously identified as a dinosaur which could be any number of things known or unknown, and could be entirely folkloric, in support of a prehistoric beast identification for sculptures that look just as much like known animals, spins into profound levels of wishful thinking.
 
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To get bck to mokele mbembe for a minute though. The thing that bothers me most about that, is that the local pygmies, the forest dwellers, don't have a word of their own for it. Mokele mbembe is a Bantu word.

Either way, the logging roads are only about 15KM from Lake Tele these days, so we'll soon know.
 
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I've written a fair bit on supposed nneo-dinosaurs. There aren't any, except for ones that go 'tweet'. All down to mistaken identity and BS. The mokele mbembe may be a huge semi-aquatic monitor, emela notuka may be a rhino. Other may stem from sightings of outsized crocodiles and giant constricting snakes . With the latter if they hold their heads and a portion of the body out of the water they may superfically resemble sauropods.
 
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As for the mokele mbembe, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that it's anything other than a myth. The descriptions, few as they are, are contradictory, and the word itself is a Bantu word, and not in the language of the main witnesses.

So I'd agree, it's the result of romantic imaginings.
 
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Seventy Million or 150 Million years is rather moot is is not. Your figure is correct, However both indicates a very very long time ago. As far as the mokele mbembe is concerned several factors must be considered. That's a very long time for an animal to exist. However the Alligator dates back to the dinosaurs. The mokele mbembe , like the alligator , would have changed over that period of time. The alligator is recognizable from his ancestor but considerably different.
 
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Seventy Million or 150 Million years is rather moot is is not. ...

I agree that in one way 150 or 70 million years is quite a moot point. Long gone in this context, is long gone. Which, as I think we agree, is that of romantic imaginings. If though it really was a question of whether an animal had really survived, then it'd become significant. Again though in general conversation, you're quite right.

Modern alligator and crocodilians in general did first arise in the Cretaceous, and their appearance hasn't changed that much. In terms of their earlier ancestors and relatives though, again as you say, they've changed radically. Although at various times similar forms to today's have existed in the deep past. Mokele mbembe though changes depending on who you ask. The version that's stuck here in the west though, is that of a sauropod, which lives in the wetlands of the Likouala Aux Herbs and especially in and around Lake Tele. All the sort of habitat that seemed to be ideal back in the days when the stories were first popularised, and when we though dinosaurs were big bulky things that needed water to support themselves.

maxresdefault.jpg


But these days we realise that such an environment is completely unsuitable. And that the animals themselves were in life, very different to how we then imagined them.

It's a tale that's dated now and evaporates when you look into it. Which is sad in a way, because it's by far the most romantic of all the cryptids. More worryingly though, the logging roads are now within about 15-20KM of the lake, so belief in it may be set to last just last as long as its supposed habitat. The World is getting smaller.
 

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To get bck to mokele mbembe for a minute though. The thing that bothers me most about that, is that the local pygmies, the forest dwellers, don't have a word of their own for it. Mokele mbembe is a Bantu word.

Either way, the logging roads are only about 15KM from Lake Tele these days, so we'll soon know.

Funny I just seen a video about mokele mbembe.
 
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You are probably right. But by playing "devils advocate" I would point out that a surviving Stegosaurus would evolve over several million years and possibly sport a larger head. If I remember correctly the Stegosaurus body form had at lest 9 known variations in its past. The large head is a noticeable piece of evidence but is not a clincher. No I'm not saying the artist saw a real live Stegosaurus; just speculating; playing devils advocate.
 
I agree that in one way 150 or 70 million years is quite a moot point. Long gone in this context, is long gone. Which, as I think we agree, is that of romantic imaginings. If though it really was a question of whether an animal had really survived, then it'd become significant. Again though in general conversation, you're quite right.

Modern alligator and crocodilians in general did first arise in the Cretaceous, and their appearance hasn't changed that much. In terms of their earlier ancestors and relatives though, again as you say, they've changed radically. Although at various times similar forms to today's have existed in the deep past. Mokele mbembe though changes depending on who you ask. The version that's stuck here in the west though, is that of a sauropod, which lives in the wetlands of the Likouala Aux Herbs and especially in and around Lake Tele. All the sort of habitat that seemed to be ideal back in the days when the stories were first popularised, and when we though dinosaurs were big bulky things that needed water to support themselves.

maxresdefault.jpg


But these days we realise that such an environment is completely unsuitable. And that the animals themselves were in life, very different to how we then imagined them.

It's a tale that's dated now and evaporates when you look into it. Which is sad in a way, because it's by far the most romantic of all the cryptids. More worryingly though, the logging roads are now within about 15-20KM of the lake, so belief in it may be set to last just last as long as its supposed habitat. The World is getting smaller.

As to a fossil being the inspiration, so far stegasours are only known from the U.S and Portugal, so it's unlikely I'd say



I doubt it's a chameleon, it's quite away out of their distribution range. And good point about the size of the head.

I agree it's a mammal of some sort, or a creature inspired by one. I have to say though, due to the depth of the carving and the way the 'plates' are distributed along its back, I think they are supposed to be part of the animal. Whatever it is.
.

Overall a fine write-up. Crocodilians such as the Nile crocodile and the alligator have changed very little at all, since the ago of the Dinosaurs. I was under the opinion (and stand to be corrected) that mokele-mbembe was often claimed to inhabit the largely impenetrable and environmentally hostile 55.000 sq. mile Likouala Swamp. Which only has a limited value as a source of lumber seeing as it largely consist of a series of rivers and swamps. Of course even this inhospitable region has been subject to many expeditions without concrete proof of the sauropods existence.
 
Overall a fine write-up. Crocodilians such as the Nile crocodile and the alligator have changed very little at all, since the ago of the Dinosaurs. I was under the opinion (and stand to be corrected) that mokele-mbembe was often claimed to inhabit the largely impenetrable and environmentally hostile 55.000 sq. mile Likouala Swamp. Which only has a limited value as a source of lumber seeing as it largely consist of a series of rivers and swamps. Of course even this inhospitable region has been subject to many expeditions without concrete proof of the sauropods existence.

Very possibly Jim, but the logging roads have crossed the western border of the Likouala. Also, apparently these days apart from expeditions, you can actually book a trip to Lake Tele http://congotravelandtours.com/lake-tele-expedition/

Plus it's discussed as a destination on the Lonely Planet website

I'm not sure how many people actually make the trip though.
 
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