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The E.U. As A Continuation Of A Nazi State

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Ascalon,

Yes, it's all bollocks.

To start with the president of the European Council is Donald Tusk, Not Angela Merkle.

The EU was formed to prevent another episode like the rise of the Nazi party.

Anyone who sees a similarity between the rise of Hitler's Germany and the EU needs to read up on their history.

From wiki..

Angela Dorothea Merkel is a German politician serving as Chancellor of Germany since 2005 and leader of the centre-right Christian Democratic Union since 2000.

INT21
 
Angela Dorothea Merkel is a German politician serving as Chancellor of Germany since 2005 and leader of the centre-right Christian Democratic Union since 2000.
She used to be a Marxist. Probably still is.
 
..She used to be a Marxist. Probably still is...

She also used to live in East Germany before the reunification.

So what is wrong with being a Marxist ?

INT21
 
She used to be a Marxist. Probably still is.

Was she ever a Marxist? She seems to have worked as a scientist and only joined the Free German Youth as it was difficult to get into college without being a member. Crucially she participated in several compulsory courses on Marxism-Leninism with her grades only being regarded as "sufficient".
 
Even if she was, it doesn't seem to done her any harm.

It would not have been such a good idea to skip Marxism-leninism classes on Communist controlled East Germany.

Marx's understanding of economics was spot on. There was a good documentary piece done by Stephany Flanders a few year back.

INT21
 
Even if she was, it doesn't seem to done her any harm.

It would not have been such a good idea to skip Marxism-leninism classes on Communist controlled East Germany.

Marx's understanding of economics was spot on. There was a good documentary piece done by Stephany Flanders a few year back.

INT21

Many capitalist/mainstream economists regard Capital as a masterly analysis of 19th Century Capitalism. They wouldn't agree with the conclusions and political strategies which he came up with while he was working on his Magfnum Opus though.

But then again, Adam Smith isn't responsible for child labour or Pinochet/Hitler anymore than Marx is responsible For Stalin/Mao.
 
And the fact that Marx lived in London under the auspices of a patron shows he knew which side his bread was buttered on.

Butter !, Come Comrade, isn't that a rather bourgeois taste ? Think carefully before you reply.

INT21
 
Marx's observation that the owners of production need not pay any wages higher than the minimum and that this is dependent upon the spare worker supply is as true now as it ever was. And we see it being played out in Trumps industrial America as we speak. Worker shortage in key trades, wages go up. when the schools have turned out too many people trained to do the same job, the wages will fall.

Old Karl knew his onions.

INT21
 
Marx's understanding of economics was spot on. There was a good documentary piece done by Stephany Flanders a few year back.

INT21

In a sense that is the problem.
Marxist theory is too simple, too straightforward and too logical. Most people simply refuse to believe that the system they labour under can be so black and white. Accepting the truth of it would expose them to their own gullibility. Far easier to blame the usual suspects.
 
Well here's an interesting article from the Financial Times.

Please use the sharing tools found via the email icon at the top of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found here.
https://www.ft.com/content/603b3498-2155-11e8-a895-1ba1f72c2c11

What would Karl Marx write today?

Two hundred years after the philosopher’s birth, two staunch believers in capitalism rewrite ‘The Communist Manifesto’

Rupert Younger and Frank Partnoy MARCH 9, 2018


What would Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels write today? Perhaps something like this:

“A spectre is haunting the world — the spectre of activism. All the powers of the old world order have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre . . . It is high time that Activists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views.”

These sentences faithfully echo the opening words of The Communist Manifesto. The original famously declared: “The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.” For Marx and Engels, in a capitalist system a sequence of widening splits between the classes was inevitable. The bourgeoisie would become more powerful as markets expanded, until the disenfranchised labourers in the proletarian class booted them out. Ultimately a revolution would end capitalism’s reign.

As a partner in a corporate advisory firm and a professor of law and finance, we are true believers in free-market capitalism — hardly natural latter-day communists, let alone successors to Marx and Engels. But we do believe the time is ripe for a rewrite of their Manifesto. Like the inhabitants of mid-19th century Europe, we live, according to Oxford University’s Professor Alan Morrison, “in the wake of a calamitous financial crisis and in the midst of whirlwind social change, a popular distaste of financial capitalists, and widespread revolutionary activity”.

We have imagined what Marx and Engels would have written in 2018, naming the new, updated version “The Activist Manifesto”. After all, as Morrison writes in the introduction to our work, “we could use a coherent explanation of the forces that buffet us, and a hint as to their likely resolution”.

The original had a long gestation. Marx first met his friend and collaborator briefly in 1842, and then again in a café in Paris in 1844. Marx, a journalist for a radical leftist newspaper, had just read Engels’ The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844, and was taken with his argument that the working class could become agents of radical change. The two became friends and began writing together, critiquing various philosophies circulating at the time. The first edition of The Manifesto of the Communist Party, a 23-page pamphlet, was published in February 1848. For more than two decades it languished in obscurity, but in the early 1870s it resurfaced and, from that point on, Marx and Engels updated it repeatedly, in various editions and languages. ...

Two centuries after Marx’s birth, and however much communism has rightly been discredited, a great deal of the argument is as relevant now as it was then. The Manifesto’s theories about the problems of capitalism and the capitalist mode of production continue to be cited in critiques of unfettered markets, and the document’s historical analysis is cited by modern scholars and taught in universities today. Some historians have cited it as the most influential text of the 19th century. Its reverberations are still felt today. ...

https://www.ft.com/content/603b3498-2155-11e8-a895-1ba1f72c2c11
 
One thing that Marx and Engels did not foresee was the rise of the stock market. And the fact that many would make lots of money based on multiple of the real value of a company. And that this form of wealth would create a capitalist class separated from reality that they could only have nightmares about. Or how the rise of automation would return the lower class to a position of the serfs in Tzarist Russia.

If the population rise is not stopped, and a more equable distribution of wealth and resources devised, we may yet see another revolution.
But this time the peasants will be blowing up data banks and server bases.

(Line deleted due to overt political connotations. May 12 2018)

INT21
 
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Well here's an interesting article from the Financial Times.

Please use the sharing tools found via the email icon at the top of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found here.
https://www.ft.com/content/603b3498-2155-11e8-a895-1ba1f72c2c11

What would Karl Marx write today?

Two hundred years after the philosopher’s birth, two staunch believers in capitalism rewrite ‘The Communist Manifesto’

Rupert Younger and Frank Partnoy MARCH 9, 2018


What would Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels write today? Perhaps something like this:

“A spectre is haunting the world — the spectre of activism. All the powers of the old world order have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre . . . It is high time that Activists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views.”

These sentences faithfully echo the opening words of The Communist Manifesto. The original famously declared: “The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.” For Marx and Engels, in a capitalist system a sequence of widening splits between the classes was inevitable. The bourgeoisie would become more powerful as markets expanded, until the disenfranchised labourers in the proletarian class booted them out. Ultimately a revolution would end capitalism’s reign.

As a partner in a corporate advisory firm and a professor of law and finance, we are true believers in free-market capitalism — hardly natural latter-day communists, let alone successors to Marx and Engels. But we do believe the time is ripe for a rewrite of their Manifesto. Like the inhabitants of mid-19th century Europe, we live, according to Oxford University’s Professor Alan Morrison, “in the wake of a calamitous financial crisis and in the midst of whirlwind social change, a popular distaste of financial capitalists, and widespread revolutionary activity”.

We have imagined what Marx and Engels would have written in 2018, naming the new, updated version “The Activist Manifesto”. After all, as Morrison writes in the introduction to our work, “we could use a coherent explanation of the forces that buffet us, and a hint as to their likely resolution”.

The original had a long gestation. Marx first met his friend and collaborator briefly in 1842, and then again in a café in Paris in 1844. Marx, a journalist for a radical leftist newspaper, had just read Engels’ The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844, and was taken with his argument that the working class could become agents of radical change. The two became friends and began writing together, critiquing various philosophies circulating at the time. The first edition of The Manifesto of the Communist Party, a 23-page pamphlet, was published in February 1848. For more than two decades it languished in obscurity, but in the early 1870s it resurfaced and, from that point on, Marx and Engels updated it repeatedly, in various editions and languages. ...

Two centuries after Marx’s birth, and however much communism has rightly been discredited, a great deal of the argument is as relevant now as it was then. The Manifesto’s theories about the problems of capitalism and the capitalist mode of production continue to be cited in critiques of unfettered markets, and the document’s historical analysis is cited by modern scholars and taught in universities today. Some historians have cited it as the most influential text of the 19th century. Its reverberations are still felt today. ...

https://www.ft.com/content/603b3498-2155-11e8-a895-1ba1f72c2c11

Another relevant article.

The Premature Death Of Marx
by Mario Nuti on 8 May 2018

Most Marxists and anti-Marxists alike probably fail to realise that the highest praise for capitalism is to be found in Marx and Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party(1848), that readily recognised that the capitalist system promoted urbanisation, industrialisation, technical progress, economic growth and prosperity on an unprecedented scale:

The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature’s forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam-navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalisation of rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground—what earlier century had even a presentiment (of) such productive forces . . . The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilisation. ...

https://www.socialeurope.eu/happy-200th-birthday-karl
 
"I think we should be careful about throwing the term nazi about too loosely."

Absolutely!
Nazi and Fascist are grossly overused and misused terms, neither of which are applicable to the EU (or indeed to Farage or Berlusconi).

A compatriot of Berlusconi's however was the father of modern fascism and gave us the following explicit and succinct definition:

All within the state.
Nothing outside the state.
Nothing against the state.

In other words, fascism, which is closely related to National Socialism, is defined by a huge degree of state ownership, an ethos of expanding and taking over other countries, and not permitting any opposition.

The Third Reich and Soviet Union were certainly fascist and, arguably, China, North Korea and Iran still are.

Best way to oppose fascism is to be wary of any political party or movement seeking to grow the state to a significant degree.
 
RE: the legacy of Marx and Engels (we seem to be forgetting Engels a bit, but he was so much more than a sidekick).

I'd give them credit for the following:

*Their description of globalisation under capitalism (which appears in The Communist Manifesto, for example) which was very ahead of its time, being still fresh, and unnervingly accurate today.

* Identifying `the fetishism of commodities`. You might need to look this one up, but, briefly this is when we begin to worship physical objects that have ben created by man - and forget that they are just inanimate objects which people once laboured on for a purpose. Our culture is saturated by this fetishsim of commodities - observe how we think about cars and mobile phones, for instance - and I believe this to be one of the big dehumanising factors of contemporary life.

*Dialectics. The term `dialectic materialism` is almost a synonym for Marxism proper, although many tend to only focus on the `materialsit` part of this combination now. `Dialectics` is the view that our world is ever changing and never staying the same - as opposites fuse and create something new. It's a very radical way of looking at the universe. Engels wrote a great deal about this on his own and this part of his/their writing is under-appreciated these days.

No, I'm not a Marxist - although I could be a Eurocommunist, if such a thing still existed nowadays.
 
RE: the legacy of Marx and Engels (we seem to be forgetting Engels a bit, but he was so much more than a sidekick).

I'd give them credit for the following:

*Their description of globalisation under capitalism (which appears in The Communist Manifesto, for example) which was very ahead of its time, being still fresh, and unnervingly accurate today.

* Identifying `the fetishism of commodities`. You might need to look this one up, but, briefly this is when we begin to worship physical objects that have ben created by man - and forget that they are just inanimate objects which people once laboured on for a purpose. Our culture is saturated by this fetishsim of commodities - observe how we think about cars and mobile phones, for instance - and I believe this to be one of the big dehumanising factors of contemporary life.

*Dialectics. The term `dialectic materialism` is almost a synonym for Marxism proper, although many tend to only focus on the `materialsit` part of this combination now. `Dialectics` is the view that our world is ever changing and never staying the same - as opposites fuse and create something new. It's a very radical way of looking at the universe. Engels wrote a great deal about this on his own and this part of his/their writing is under-appreciated these days.

No, I'm not a Marxist - although I could be a Eurocommunist, if such a thing still existed nowadays.

Syriza is sort of eurocommunist or maybe just Left Social-Democrats (which I guess i am).

Marx himself was at pains to assert that he wasn't a Marxist. I think Maro Nuti does a good job in his critique above.
 
But the EU allows free competition and has strict rules against nationalisation/protectionism.
The EU has more in common with neo-liberalism, which is diametrically opposed to fascism.

Exactly. And this is what a lot of Eurosceptics fail to really understand. The EU's rules and legislation (which we very much helped shape, but were also shaped by other major member states) are designed to protect against the exact things which right wing politics cannot stand.

But then, for the majority of them, they will trump up any ridiculous charge to berate and vilify the EU because they want the right to discriminate against people, they want the right to dodge taxation, the want the ability to to take advantage of people in precarious positions to further their own status and wealth. Damn the EU for trying to make them decent upstanding sensible people! It's an OUTRAGE!!!
 
Exactly. And this is what a lot of Eurosceptics fail to really understand. The EU's rules and legislation (which we very much helped shape, but were also shaped by other major member states) are designed to protect against the exact things which right wing politics cannot stand.

But then, for the majority of them, they will trump up any ridiculous charge to berate and vilify the EU because they want the right to discriminate against people, they want the right to dodge taxation, the want the ability to to take advantage of people in precarious positions to further their own status and wealth. Damn the EU for trying to make them decent upstanding sensible people! It's an OUTRAGE!!!

Whilst there are things about the EU that I was uncomfortable with (the appallingly wasteful CAP for example) and, until Mrs Thatcher secured our rebate, we were clearly paying vastly too much, on the whole though, I felt it was a benign force, that raised the living standards of most Brits. Also, being married to a French woman, I do feel a certain commitment to Europe!

In any case, comparing the EU to the Third Reich is utterly ludicrous hyperbole.
As a (non-fanatical) remainer, I was obviously disappointed with the referendum result, which I suspect was mostly a result of ignorant and largely working class xenophobia.
All we can do now is hope for damage limitation. For me, that means remaining part of the customs union.
 
..ignorant and largely working class xenophobia...

As an ignorant working class xenophobic I can only disagree.

INT21
 
Whilst there are things about the EU that I was uncomfortable with (the appallingly wasteful CAP for example) and, until Mrs Thatcher secured our rebate, we were clearly paying vastly too much, on the whole though, I felt it was a benign force, that raised the living standards of most Brits. Also, being married to a French woman, I do feel a certain commitment to Europe!

In any case, comparing the EU to the Third Reich is utterly ludicrous hyperbole.
As a (non-fanatical) remainer, I was obviously disappointed with the referendum result, which I suspect was mostly a result of ignorant and largely working class xenophobia.
All we can do now is hope for damage limitation. For me, that means remaining part of the customs union.

I like the post rather than the part which ascribes Brexit to working class xenophobes, there was a large middle class element to the Pro-Brexit vote and the leadership was almost entirely upper-middle/ruling class.
 
I fear we may be venturing too far into politics by discussing Brexit.

Sorry Yith.
 
I fear we may be venturing too far into politics by discussing Brexit.

Sorry Yith.

Anyone starting a thread by making such an idiotic comparison between the EU and The Third Reich was inevitably going to get some highly political replies.

Sadly, Brexit has split the UK in many ways, with lower-educated working class folk tending towards Brexit, whereas better-educated middle class voters tended to vote Remain. Also, the North of England was far more for Brexit than the South. Those under 35 tended to vote remain, whereas pensioners tended to vote for Brexit.
 
Sadly, Brexit has split the UK in many ways, with lower-educated working class folk tending towards Brexit, whereas better-educated middle class voters tended to vote Remain. Also, the North of England was far more for Brexit than the South. Those under 35 tended to vote remain, whereas pensioners tended to vote for Brexit.
There were plenty of well-educated Brexit voters. I've met a few.
 
Anyone starting a thread by making such an idiotic comparison between the EU and The Third Reich was inevitably going to get some highly political replies.

Sadly, Brexit has split the UK in many ways, with lower-educated working class folk tending towards Brexit, whereas better-educated middle class voters tended to vote Remain. Also, the North of England was far more for Brexit than the South. Those under 35 tended to vote remain, whereas pensioners tended to vote for Brexit.

Some interesting analysis of the results here:

There has been no shortage of debate in relation to who voted which way in the UK’s EU referendum and why. Research published to date has concentrated on the high probability of voting ‘Leave’ among households living on less than £20,000 a year. However, low income is confounded by household age and size. Single pensioner households are very likely to fall within this category, but often having lower housing costs this group is not necessarily the poorest, but it is one of the oldest.

The same research highlights that “other things being equal, support for leave was 30 percentage points higher among those with GCSE qualifications or below than it was for people with a degree”. But other things are not equal and it is not possible to devise a statistical technique to make them equal because hardly any elderly people have university degrees. The few older people with university degrees in the UK are extremely atypical.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-inequality-and-the-demographic-divide/
 
CuriousIdent,

..they want the right to dodge taxation,..

Not with you here.

Seems to me that we in the UK pay more than enough with our PAYE and 20% VAT etc.

Perhaps you can explain what you are getting at.

INT21
 
.. hardly any elderly people have university degrees. The few older people with university degrees in the UK are extremely atypical.,,

There is also the 'perceived value' of the degree held.

As degrees seem to be handed out for everything from flower arranging to hairdressing, and these kind of degrees are often to be found amongst the working class people took them as they were relatively easy, do they count as much as the degrees in, say, electronics, physics, maths, engineering etc. Degrees that are much harder to get and are often taken by people of 'middle' class who may be able to afford the extra time and expense needed.

There is nothing wrong with the more modern degrees as they do indeed prove that one has demonstrated a competence in the field studied. But they do tend to be more vocational than academic and this is reflected in the social class.

While Gladys from Bury will do well with her hairdressing degree, and can set up her own business to start bringing in money. Young Tarquin from the Shires may need to spend a lot more time at home supported by his parents before he can get his masters in botany. One may assume they can afford the luxury.

INT21
 
Seems to me that we in the UK pay more than enough with our PAYE and 20% VAT etc.
Also, not so long ago, VAT in the UK was lower than it was on the continent. We bumped it up to 20% to get parity with the other EU countries (in an 'emergency' budget). When we joined the EEC, VAT was set at 10%. Now it's doubled since 1973. That can't be good for poorer people.
 
There were plenty of well-educated Brexit voters. I've met a few.

I don't dispute that. Just as there were plenty of over 35s who voted Remain (like me).
The overall trend though revealed a significant demographic split by class, education, age, sex, geographic location and even ethnicity, with working class, less educated, older, Northern English, white males being statistically more likely to vote leave.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...nal-qualification_uk_58986ffce4b0a1dcbd02faf7

To balance your anecdote, a couple of my mates are brothers. One is a banker and, unsurprisingly, a remainer. The other is a labourer and a staunch brexiter.
 
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CuriousIdent,

..they want the right to dodge taxation,..

Not with you here.

Seems to me that we in the UK pay more than enough with our PAYE and 20% VAT etc.

Perhaps you can explain what you are getting at.

INT21


Absolutely. I'm talking about mass scale tax avoidance. Billionaires who filter of millions into bogus companies in other countries to avoid paying tax at higher rates in their country of origin. This was something which the EU made absolutely clear that they wanted to crack down on. To not have EU countries in particular used as tax havens, or for EU member states to be cheated out taxation which they should have received.

It's not just multi-billion dollar global companies doing this (Starbucks, Google etc) but billionaires in their own right, who have spent decades hiding their money. This was the exact kind of thing which the Panama Papers highlighted the extent of. It should be pointed out that a number of the highest profile financial backers of Vote Leave and other anti-EU pressure groups were named in the Panama Papers. There is no way in hell that this is a coincidence.

The EU is against tax avoidance. And those who have spent years creatively hiding their money to avoid paying Countries what they should be are very much against anybody who would want to put an end to that.
 
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