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The Enfield Poltergeist

Just curious but has the report written by a different SPR researcher (her name escapes me for the moment) ever surfaced. Forgive my failing memory but it was the one I believe was effectively denounced and suppressed by Maurice Grosse?
 
Tribble said:
Anita Gregory?
She wrote "Problems in investigating psychokinesis in special subjects" (doctoral thesis) about the case, is that the report?

https://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?did=1&uin=uk.bl.ethos.549175
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That's maybe the one I think, thank you.

As i understand it Anita Gregory thought some of the investigation methodology was ethically questionable - as explored earlier in this thread - and when documenting this met the ire of Maurice Grosse.

Happy to be disabused of such notions if incorrect.
 
Over on Mumsnet there is a current discussion on the subject of 'Things which scared you as a child and still scare you now'. Someone (in fact I think a few someones) chimed in with The Enfield Poltergeist, which they'd heard bits and pieces about as children.

Someone came on and answered with this:
'
'The Enfield poltergeist is not a true story, I promise you. Like I said, I lived very near the house, walked past it most days. A lot of it was blatantly just lies to whip up a frenzy, even from the investigators. The one we discovered just the other day for instance. It was always said locally that Bill (the spirit) was buried in St James which is next to the park opposite the house. You walk through it on the way so you always look at the grave stones. In the book by investigator Guy Playfair it specifically says “The girls would often visit Bills grave in the local churchyard as they were walking home.”

Well we went to the park last week and decided to try and find it.

It’s not there.

It’s in a grave yard on the other side of Enfield, lavender hill. That’s not local to an 11 year old girl. I’m telling you now there’s no way those girls would have gone all the way up to lavender hill unless they had bikes or bus fare, which they didn’t have, they were on their arses poor. Even then it’s 2 buses and a trek up gordon hill. There’s no way kids could even find it on their own, it’s tucked away in the green belt, bordering Cuffley.

That’s just one example of the little fibs to make it all more believable. Even to us as kids who had older uncles and aunts etc saying it was true. Scary when you’re 11 but as an adult you just wonder what the poor kids were really facing that made them act that way.'

I offer no comment, just thought someone might find this interesting.
 
catseye said:
Over on Mumsnet there is a current discussion on the subject of 'Things which scared you as a child and still scare you now'. Someone (in fact I think a few someones) chimed in with The Enfield Poltergeist, which they'd heard bits and pieces about as children.

Someone came on and answered with this:
'
'The Enfield poltergeist is not a true story, I promise you. Like I said, I lived very near the house, walked past it most days. A lot of it was blatantly just lies to whip up a frenzy, even from the investigators. The one we discovered just the other day for instance. It was always said locally that Bill (the spirit) was buried in St James which is next to the park opposite the house. You walk through it on the way so you always look at the grave stones. In the book by investigator Guy Playfair it specifically says “The girls would often visit Bills grave in the local churchyard as they were walking home.”

Well we went to the park last week and decided to try and find it.

It’s not there.

It’s in a grave yard on the other side of Enfield, lavender hill. That’s not local to an 11 year old girl. I’m telling you now there’s no way those girls would have gone all the way up to lavender hill unless they had bikes or bus fare, which they didn’t have, they were on their arses poor. Even then it’s 2 buses and a trek up gordon hill. There’s no way kids could even find it on their own, it’s tucked away in the green belt, bordering Cuffley.

That’s just one example of the little fibs to make it all more believable. Even to us as kids who had older uncles and aunts etc saying it was true. Scary when you’re 11 but as an adult you just wonder what the poor kids were really facing that made them act that way.'

I offer no comment, just thought someone might find this interesting.
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Hmmmmm, it's definitely interesting!
 
catseye said:
Over on Mumsnet there is a current discussion on the subject of 'Things which scared you as a child and still scare you now'. Someone (in fact I think a few someones) chimed in with The Enfield Poltergeist, which they'd heard bits and pieces about as children.

Someone came on and answered with this:
'
'The Enfield poltergeist is not a true story, I promise you. Like I said, I lived very near the house, walked past it most days. A lot of it was blatantly just lies to whip up a frenzy, even from the investigators. The one we discovered just the other day for instance. It was always said locally that Bill (the spirit) was buried in St James which is next to the park opposite the house. You walk through it on the way so you always look at the grave stones. In the book by investigator Guy Playfair it specifically says “The girls would often visit Bills grave in the local churchyard as they were walking home.”

Well we went to the park last week and decided to try and find it.

It’s not there.

It’s in a grave yard on the other side of Enfield, lavender hill. That’s not local to an 11 year old girl. I’m telling you now there’s no way those girls would have gone all the way up to lavender hill unless they had bikes or bus fare, which they didn’t have, they were on their arses poor. Even then it’s 2 buses and a trek up gordon hill. There’s no way kids could even find it on their own, it’s tucked away in the green belt, bordering Cuffley.

That’s just one example of the little fibs to make it all more believable. Even to us as kids who had older uncles and aunts etc saying it was true. Scary when you’re 11 but as an adult you just wonder what the poor kids were really facing that made them act that way.'

I offer no comment, just thought someone might find this interesting.
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A bit of an odd response, this one.

(I mean sure, this is from mumsnet. Plenty alternative-fact-believing individuals over there. From misguided anti-vaxxers to the truly batshit crazy)

So none of it is true. But yet they’re saying that there is no way the girls could have known about Bill from visiting his grave, as the investigators claimed. Because his grave was at a totally different, far more distanced, graveyard. They’d have never seen it.

Well... hold on. How did they know about him then? If you’re trying to prove the whole thing is a fake? Why try to debunk a detail which more easily proves the likelihood *of* fakery?

Debunking that detail adds more weight to the notion that Janet did not know about Bill, and was genuinely channeling his spirit. Not against it.
 
CuriousIdent said:
A bit of an odd response, this one.

(I mean sure, this is from mumsnet. Plenty alternative-fact-believing individuals over there. From misguided anti-vaxxers to the truly batshit crazy)

So none of it is true. But yet they’re saying that there is no way the girls could have known about Bill from visiting his grave, as the investigators claimed. Because his grave was at a totally different, far more distanced, graveyard. They’d have never seen it.

Well... hold on. How did they know about him then? If you’re trying to prove the whole thing is a fake? Why try to debunk a detail which more easily proves the likelihood *of* fakery?

Debunking that detail adds more weight to the notion that Janet did not know about Bill, and was genuinely channeling his spirit. Not against it.
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The point was that the girl were supposed to have often seen the grave when they couldn't have done. It's not true that they visited it on way home from school because it was in the other direction. The lie is a hole in the story which diminishes its credibility.
 
escargot said:
The point was that the girl were supposed to have often seen the grave when they couldn't have done. It's not true that they visited it on way home from school because it was in the other direction. The lie is a hole in the story which diminishes its credibility.
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In a tangent fashion I suppose it does. Although it doesn’t really disprove the Enfield Poltergeist.

I think even the most ardent believers in that will probably concede that at least some part of the greater hysteria surrounding this case was either made up or exaggerated. A hugely overblown media affair for a very niche story from the suburbs in the 70s. Many dubious questions to be asked about both portrayals of events and the investigation. Even the girls admitted to faking it on occasion.

But if somebody is going to be vehement that none of it is true they need more. Something more concrete than debunking a story point which better goes to support the notion of a fake.
 
escargot said:
The point was that the girl were supposed to have often seen the grave when they couldn't have done. It's not true that they visited it on way home from school because it was in the other direction. The lie is a hole in the story which diminishes its credibility.
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I don't see how if diminishes the story at all, lots of different things happened to lots of different people, that's what we should be looking at.
 
Whatever the truth, it was undoubtedly a very strange affair.

What is interesting however, is that the “Poltergeist” in the Enfield case, acted in same manner that other reported Poltergeist hauntings had in the past.

Starting with the knocking/rapping on walls, moved objects, small fires breaking out, (followed by inexplicable extinguishing) interference with electrical systems and bedclothes etc.

No disrespect, but I don’t think, the two Girls involved, would have had the knowledge to prank a classic Poltergeist haunting, and whilst it’s true that Mr Grosse, was sadly fighting his own emotions over the death of his Daughter, and Mr Playfair having possible ulterior motives with a book contract, I don’t see how they would have been able to fool many of the adults involved including the Police and the very down to earth neighbours.

By the way I saw Janet some years ago. I walked past her in the Street, when I took the kids to Clacton on sea for the day.

If I wasn’t so polite, I would have stopped her, put her in a headlock and demanded the truth :D
 
titch said:
I don't see how if diminishes the story at all, lots of different things happened to lots of different people, that's what we should be looking at.
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The detail about the kids often seeing the grave was offered as evidence. It was false so yup, it makes the rest hard to believe.

If you knew someone personally and they told you a lie like that one you wouldn't think 'Oh well, they probably tell the truth the rest of the time!'
They'd be busted. You'd stop trusting them.
 
escargot said:
The detail about the kids often seeing the grave was offered as evidence. It was false so yup, it makes the rest hard to believe.
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If a large group of adults all say they seen a large table turn over by itself it doesn't matter if a child seen a grave or not.
 
titch said:
If a large group of adults all say they seen a large table turn over by itself it doesn't matter if a child seen a grave or not.
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Why lie about it then? If it was true there'd be no need to make things up about the grave.
 
titch said:
Children making fun of adults, in fact I think Will Storr comes to that conclusion in Will Storr vs the paranormal
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Yes titch, I would take that line too.

Personally I have always thought that a lot of the time, the Children told the adults, what they thought the adults wanted to hear – perhaps being under pressure by MG, GLP and maybe the Daily Mirror
 
titch said:
If a large group of adults all say they seen a large table turn over by itself it doesn't matter if a child seen a grave or not.
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This. Basically this.

Grosse and GLP were flawed investigators in what appears to be a very flawed investigation. I actually don’t think that many people would disagree that there were flaws in their accounts or that they were beyond question in either their conscious or subconscious motives.

But that’s not really the question here. The reason we’re still talking about The Enfield Poltergeist, here in 2020, is that of all the many similar cases over the decades it‘s the one with arguably one of the highest numbers of different people who claimed to have either seen or experienced something in relation to it which they themselves could not rightly explain away as faked.

With the relatively high amount of media intrusion, the girls even admitting to faking some of it outright, and such a flawed investigation there can be little doubt that some of what occurred was for show. But we are still talking about it because we cannot conclusively write it all off. It cannot be fully debunked.

That‘s why folks are still fascinated with it.
 
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Re Enfield - all those people who say things like 'oh, those little girls could never have done XYZ and pulled a fast one on adults' - you must have known some very different childen to those who I knew (and grew up with). To call them 'devious' would be to underplay their abilities massively. And when those adults want, on some level, to be deceived....well.

For the record I think Enfield started out with genuine paranormal events, which then, as they seem to when investigated, faded away. Leaving the girls with no choice but to fake things, to keep the interest of the investigators.
 
catseye said:
Re Enfield - all those people who say things like 'oh, those little girls could never have done XYZ and pulled a fast one on adults' - you must have known some very different childen to those who I knew (and grew up with). To call them 'devious' would be to underplay their abilities massively. And when those adults want, on some level, to be deceived....well.

For the record I think Enfield started out with genuine paranormal events, which then, as they seem to when investigated, faded away. Leaving the girls with no choice but to fake things, to keep the interest of the investigators.
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I agree quite a bit - did the Cottingley Fairies teach us nothing?
 
I guess that what fascinates about these stories is that they will never really be solved. Even the girls involved in the Cottingley fairies fessed up that the piccies were faked..... except one. Yet over 100 years later we still talk about them. The girls must be looking down and having a right giggle now. So will those involved in Enfield, I suspect.
 
PeteS said:
Even the girls involved in the Cottingley fairies fessed up that the piccies were faked..... except one.
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This keeps me interested, that and the fact that the girls swore they were making photos to depict what they'd actually seen.
Also, they had a relation who was a photographer and were well clued-up about the processes involved at a time when most people were not.
 
escargot said:
The detail about the kids often seeing the grave was offered as evidence. It was false so yup, it makes the rest hard to believe.

If you knew someone personally and they told you a lie like that one you wouldn't think 'Oh well, they probably tell the truth the rest of the time!'
They'd be busted. You'd stop trusting them.
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Grave Finder doesn't give anything for Bill Wilkins in Enfield, dieing before 1980.

Did anyone but the girls ever see the gravestone? Were they just going where 'Bill' told them he was buried, or just where they felt he was buried? AFAIK we don't know.

Does the op quoted offer any evidence that the grave is not there, or more importantly that it is in the other graveyard? Not that I've seen although it might be in the original post....if not what we're being told is no more trustworthy that what the girls told us.
 
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