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The Grave Of Robin Hood

dog of war

No Stu, I didn't do any of those dickipoggy things so I don't know how I got onto DOWS bit, except I have two ways of accessing this site, both as a direct link from my own files and from an e mail response from fortean times to tell me there is a message, so somewhere along the way was a hiccough which I didn't notice, the real DOW has his own computer now so has no need to use mine, and that is all there is to it folks, I wasn't pretending to be someone else or I would hardly have told you would I?
nOW, WHAT WERE WE SAYING ABOUT Robin Hoods Grave......

Barbara
 
I've never really understood this grave of robin hood stuff anyway. If Robin hood was a real person and not some folklaw crealtion that nearly every outlaw in the whole of the north of england would give as their alias, why would he be burried up in Yorkshire, the legends say he was from Serwood forist and operated near Nottingham.

If you look at what the real robin hoods life would have been like It's extreamly doubtful it would have been resolved via royal pardonfor robin, hes more likely to have been killed in the forest and not burried at all or ended up in a gibbet iron hanging from the walls of nottingham castle.
 
Re: dog of war

barbara green said:
No Stu, I didn't do any of those dickipoggy things so I don't know how I got onto DOWS bit, except I have two ways of accessing this site, both as a direct link from my own files and from an e mail response from fortean times to tell me there is a message, so somewhere along the way was a hiccough which I didn't notice, the real DOW has his own computer now so has no need to use mine, and that is all there is to it folks, I wasn't pretending to be someone else or I would hardly have told you would I?
I was just really interested from a technical standpoint, cos I noticed this too (from Who's Online earlier on)

barbara green Viewing Thread Jack The Ripper 08:55

Dog Of War Replying to Thread Jack The Ripper 08:53

So you were looking at another thread entirely whilst Dog of war coincidentally was in the process of replying to it - however you ended up replying as you, so it's a good thing Dog of War didn't post their reply in the end or who can tell what would have happened! Dickipoggy indeed, especially as the IPs are identical - was he sat next to you at the time?

I'd have thought someone with your interest in excavation would know the first rule of holes - when you're in one, stop digging ;).
ibid
nOW, WHAT WERE WE SAYING ABOUT Robin Hoods Grave......

Barbara
Is that all of us, or you and Dog of War?
 
SO--WHAT ARE YOU GETTING AT ?

Hi Lord Flashheart, I'll answer you later on when I've cleared this muddle up with St--thanks anyway, I promise to reply.

Stu--what are you getting at exactly? Regarding Jack the Ripper I thought I'll post this post for John Pope de Locksley while I'm at it, as it has been sitting on my dest for ages waiting to be posted.I said who I was and said who I was posting for.
I didn't notice I was logged in as Dog of War and don't know how I was, as I have said, and I will inform DOW that I have accidentally and inadventently and unknowingly by accident in a way I can't explain because I am not a computer genius and probabaly not even moderately computer literate and muddle through these matters the best way I can.I didn't type any passwords in, I just gopt straight onto the board by the means I've already explained to you,

I hope that satisfies youStu, there is no mystery--well, except to me as to how I managed it!haha maybe it was a paranormal phenomenon!!



:eek!!!!: :( :hmph: I hope thats okay and satisfies you completely,

Barbara
 
robin hood--the legend

Dear Lord Flashheart

Thanks for your enquiry. To simplify matter have a look at my website http://www.robinhoodyorkshire.co.uk
The entire Robin Hood story is extremely complicated and lots of different theories flying around.........
But briefly, old documents do suggest he came to kirklees to be nursed by the prioress and she either bumped him off, was a bad nurse, or he was on his last legs anyway. But Robin Hood is definitely thought, with a great deal of evidence to back it up, to have come from Yorkshire and spent time in Barnsdale Forest before paying a two year visit to Sherwood. Because Notts have made a great deal of tourist trade on this while Yorkshire has not, due to the fact that it was a problem being allowed to visit Robin's grave for many years and it was all kept in the closet, and people have been given a very wrong impression by films like Robin of Sherwood and Prince of Thieves, the legend was been entirely distorted.

Hope that helps,

Barbara
 
Surely a legend can't be distorted? Facts can be distorted into a legend, but a legend is surely mutable by it's very nature.
 
legend

Hello Breakfast

What I meant then is to say that the legend of Robin Hood has been very much MISINTERPRETED by filmakers and authors writing for children.The basis of the legend is in the old documents and ballads and there are a lot of unanswered questions from these fragments, but the screenwriters and authors don't trouble with the facts that are discovered, but just take a few basics and make the rest up without regard to what is known and so, as a result ,people who just regard Robin as entertainment have got a very dist orted idea about him, such as he spent ALL of his time in Nottingham rushing around crossing swords with the Sheriff, that Kirklees is just outside Nottingham,(Robin and Marian film) and they ALL without exception hardly, use King Richard the Lionheart as the king in the legend when in fact he was never mentioned at all.Also,like in Robin of Sherwood, that he was a reincarnating will o the wisp who worshipped pagan gods.

I hope that clarifies what I meant, and what I also feel is that it isn't necessary to make all these things up as there is plenty in what IS known about Robin to make a fascinating story.
Barbara
Barbara
 
OK, back on track

barbara green said:
What I meant then is to say that the legend of Robin Hood has been very much MISINTERPRETED by filmakers and authors writing for children.The basis of the legend is in the old documents and ballads and there are a lot of unanswered questions from these fragments...
Problem is, once again, the documents tend to be transcripts of the ballads - earliest I could find was a fragment from Lincoln Cathedral, listed as 15th Century:
Robyn Hode in Scherewod stod
hodud and hathud, hosud and schod
ffour and thuyrti arowus he bar
in his hondus
- which takes ballad form, is definitely 1400's English, and thus about 2-300 years after his lifetime (presupposing he did exist). Are there any contemporary documents? As for misinterpretation - that's a subjective thing, surely? Without tangible proof of actual exploits, then the legends themselves are merely embellished interpretations?
 
robin's legend

Hi Stu-- gosh !you are certainly putting me through my paces but thats fine--I hope we are all striving to find the truth, I certainly am. I know some things are subjective, but for instance, to place Robin in the time of the Lionheart goes against all the KNOWN evidence and like any subject, we have to try and work with what we have got. Also, to dump Kirklees priory outside the gate of Nottingham as they did in Robin and Marian is,in my view, poetic licence gone too far.In my own book, which I won't mention for fear or incurring someone's ire, I do try to put the made up bits--its historical fiction--around a researched background framework and haven't done anything historically rubbish--as far as I know--just to suit my plot--which again, is fixed firmly around the known bits and pieces. For a full review, I would suggest you look in the world wide forum message board where they go into all the situation from many points of view--and still come up disagreeing, but it is,again,seeking to find the truth, not seeking to bolster somebody's ego and percious theory --well, hopefully not!!!

If you want any direct links to these mb's I'll e mail them to you as I have them in my file,as the addresses are a million miles long and sometimes it doesn't link up properly when I've copied them out--except for the short ones that is,

Bye for now

Barbara

ps The Geste was first printed by Wynken de Word around 1500 from an oral tradition presumably
A fragment of Robin Hood and the Monk and the Potter also, I think, were found earlier. Professor Ohlgren gave an excellent lecture about the history of the earliest documents at the recent International ROBIN Hood Conference in York,I did the Riddle of the Prioress
 
Barbara,

I read your previous lengthy thread on this subject with interest. Partly because it's also a site that's fairly local to me.

Have you come across references in the old texts/ballads etc to Robin Hood visiting Fountains Abbey? e.g. The story of Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar of Fountaindale?

Came across this while assisting a friend in some research re the Conyers family, who of course have connections with Fountains Abbey, amongst other things.

Out of interest, can you briefly recap the strange experiences you had following visiting the site at Kirkless?

Thanks

Sepulchrave
 
There's nothing on Time Team's website about digging Robin Hood's grave, or Kirklees Priory, which doesn't mean that they're not.

If they are digging the sites, its probably to establish their history and the layout of the medieval and earlier stuctures and the history of any medieval or earlier burial grounds and the history of the nearby Roman works. The story of Robin Hood will probably be treated as a romantic legend that's attached to the sites.

If they find early medieval skeletons how could they prove it was Robin Hood's? DNA as pointed out is useless, as Robin Hood doesn't have any known descendents. Carbon dating and stratification will just tell us when the bones were buried.

There is nothing that can attribute an identity to the bones. Even a plaque on the lines of that found with the supposed bones of King Arthur at Glastonbury would be debatable as to whether I was authentic or an attempt at developing a medieval (or later)tourist trap.

I agree with BG that much of the Robin Hood legend comes from the Barnsdale area of Yorkshire, however, it's a legend.

The may have been a prototype for Robin Hood, but the stories and ballads probably represent a mixture of stories about a number of different people and with quite a chunk of fiction and wish fulfilment.

The chances of finding Robin Hood's bones are about the same as finding the grave of Sherlock Holmes.
 
secrets of the grave

Dear Timble and Sepulchrave, I'll try tp answer your questions. First Fountains Abbey isn't really connectd with Friar Tuck, in fact, Friar Tuck isn't really in the Robin Hood Legend.Like Marian,he was introduced in the Tudor May Games. However, after the friar became incorporated into the situation, some placed him at Fountains Abbey because of his connection with Fountaindale,which is in Notts. Also, a Friar isn't the same as aCistercian Monk, as were the monks of Fountains. Nevertheless, the connection became quite strong despite all this and in the late nineteenth century a Festival was held there by the people of Ripon--and sounds to have been a great "do" which would be wonderful to perform again.
Regarding the strange events at Robin Hoods Grave, I don't really want to put them on this thread or it will distract it from the main issue ot Time team. You could look on this mb of mine;

http://groups.msn.com/SecretsoftheGrave


or I do have full written accounts and a lot of interesting photos which I could send with an attachment.


For Timble regarding the dna well,there is the Hastings family which called all their boys Robin Hood for their middle name, and I think there was some genuine connection which i will try to find out. As I have said before, if they didn't think they were going to find something worthwhile tt would not be bothering and I have always said there is a wealth of history mouldering at Kirklees waiting to be investigated.

Now the Kirklees case is out of the closet lots of people are rushing to make the most of it--and maybe their names,


Barbara
 
goldsborough descendent

Suggest you guys check out the world wide robin hood forum to get up to date on the descendents of robin hood,if you want a direct link please e mail me on [email protected]


I don't know all the situation, so best you check the current discussions, if you fancy

Barbara
 
I possibly mentioned this before but there is an essay on Robin Hood in Michael Wood's "In Search of England" which is well worth reading. I don't have it to hand but he does seem to find some fairly compelling evidence for the possibility that there was a historical robin hood although iirc he has so little in common with the story book character that there is little more than a name and a criminal record (by which I mean a record of criminal activity, rather than any sheriff's militia paperwork, obviously) to connect them. I don't think he was connected to nottingham either.
 
Barbara,

Thank you for the info. I had not realised that Fountaindale was not (or had never been) the name for the area of Yorkshire where Fountains Abbey is located. Like the Tudor tale-tellers, I had assumed them to be connected.

Has your research shown up any evidence connecting (or suggesting a connection between) "Robin Hood" and Fountains Abbey, or indeed any sites in that area?


Sepulchrave.
 
Breakfast said:
I possibly mentioned this before but there is an essay on Robin Hood in Michael Wood's "In Search of England" which is well worth reading. I don't have it to hand but he does seem to find some fairly compelling evidence for the possibility that there was a historical robin hood although iirc he has so little in common with the story book character that there is little more than a name and a criminal record....

Likewise, I can't find my copy as I'm in the process of moving...
is it the 'Robert Hode' chap you're thinking about?

I've some other books on Robin Hood, which propose a few other possible originals, suggesting that he's a composite rather than a single person.
 
robin hoods grave

Hello again,


Sorry I didn't get chance to reply yesterday, I ended up doing a rather long day as someone did not show at work!
I haven't seen Muchael Woods book but will ask on the forum if anyone know of it. Regarding the area of Fountains Abbey which is a really beautiful place, the Ripon Millenary Festival always said that they acted the play on the "TRADITIONAL SPOT" which was by the River,which looks very traditional but unfortunately there is no evidence that Robin ever went to Fountains--though he could have done so of course, but the legend has got a bit muddled over that story !And someone has made the most of the muddle!

There are a great many Yorkshire connections, for example St Mary's Abbey in York--mentioned in the Geste,Robin Hoods Bay and Whitby on the East Coast,Wekfield and Loxley
which both claim to be the birthplace of Robin, and the "Sayles" a forested area aroound the Great North Road where the outlaws hung around,mentioned in the Geste, as well as Barnsdale Forest also--which wasn't,like Sherwood, a royal hunting park but just an enormous,partly wooded area which reached as far as tge River Din.

Hope this is helpful

Barbara
 
latest on the time team dig

I have now had information that TONY ROBINSON IS UP AT Kirklees with cameras ALSOwith another Robin Hood person Richard Rutherford Moore who is saying that there is no grave!!!!!

Barbara
 
No Grave Matter

I found this in JC Holt. Robin Hood. 2nd edition Thames and Hudson, London; 1989, p44.

The author is discussing the grave at Kirklees and how the legend grew, he cites an 18C antiquarian Richard Gough (Sepulchral Monuments; 1786 =, pcviii), concerning the authenticity of the grave slab and what is underneath it.


'The late Sir Samuel Armitage, owner of the premises, caused the ground under to be dug a yard deep and found it had never been disturbed; so that it [i.e. the slab] was probably brought from some other place and by vulgar tradition ascribed to Robin Hood.

So there's been doubts about the grave for a long time.
 
grave secrets

Hello Timble,

Thanks for your comments. I have read the reference before and commented on it, that is to say the following.

A local person told me that a family legend states that his great great grandpa went out drinking with Sir Samuel and one night they were coming back to Kirklees--Richard's ggggrandparent worked on the estate--and they decided to give up the grave for a lark. So it was hardly an archeological excavation if there is any foundation to this story--I think there must be something in it, I wouldn't think someone would make such a story up, but there you are.

Secondly to excavate the site you would have to bear in mind the fact that the gravesite may have been moved slightly when they built the Victorian folly with railings and put up the psuedo gothic inscription.

The old green road mentioned in the old documents detailing the grave's position isstill to be seen if you approach the grave from Wakefield Road. This leads into the"spooky grove" where the orbs and spectres have been seen--sorry to mention them on this thread but it is relevant to the point. This is next to the roadside so, or closer than the present site,so really, you have a wide area to cover if you are serioulsy looking for a body.

Of course I quite agree the first instinct is to dig on the site to actually see if anything is there, but taking into account the above, and other factors also more scientific than I can talk about, like type of soil, moving of bodes,preservation factors etc.
I TRUST THat the people who are now digging on the site, one of whom states he does not believe in the grave anyway--if we are to believe the quote on the wwwrobin hood forum message board--will be taking these factors into account

Barbara Green Yorkshire Robin Hood Society
 
Thanks for your comments Barbara.

I suppose they'll be doing a geophysical survey, which might turn up earlier excavations or show if the current monument is away from the original grave site.

It'll be interesting to see the programme,

Have you any idea whether it's a regular Time Team, or a bit like the special about the real King Arthur that Tony Robinson did two or three years ago?
 
HEIGH HO,HEIGH HO

Dear Timble

I'm sorry but I have no information at all, just what I've heard here and there.......
I have e mailed Tony Robinson but had no reply but another f riend who knows the other person,who says the grave is a f raud--well, we know that, but NOBODY knows for certain if and where Robin is buried and until there is proper evidence, no one can say. So far we have only the old documents and ballads to point us to Kirklees, but no one has anything better. They said they would ask Tony's friend anyway,

As you might have guessed, I feel it is rather sad that local people have not been involved,

Barbara
 
i suspect a cunning plot

Well, I have just been enlightened that tony robinson played baldrick in blackadder, I was thought a bit dim for not knowing but don't watch tv that much, so I didn't know that or that he wrote the maid marian and her merry men series and played the sheriff of notts also! I though he was an archeologist. So far from the Channel 4 website message board I've been informed that it is thought that maybe he isn't doing a dig after all but soem kind of reconsruction--as we did in robin hood and the holy grail, though that was a spoof--or so it turned out!!! It is a pity because a proper dig is what is needed, even if they found no remains it will not shake the faith of believers--the area is vast and the present gravesite not necessarily on the original one, but just think, if they found remains they could maybe do one of those computer enhanced reconstructions. There are also many other areas on that land which need investigation, which is still known to be haunted also, with evidence from several independent witnesses. All in all, quite an fascinating situation--could do a blackadder robin hood eh, with tr as--?? little john??

Barbara
 
Sorry to subvert back to the earlier discussion about Dog of War and yourself, Barbara, but we've worked out how it would be possible to inadvertantly log on as two seperate members simultaneously. I apologise unreservedly for any unfair accusations I may have made :).

Back on with the plot - apparently Time Team have a vast number of invites to excavate land, enough to fuel several more series, so who knows, maybe they'll get round to it (bear in mind if they have to seek consent from the landowner it can put a dampener on things).
 
Lost For Ever, Turned Into A Video, A Box Of Finds And A Men

stu neville said:
Back on with the plot - apparently Time Team have a vast number of invites to excavate land, enough to fuel several more series, so who knows, maybe they'll get round to it (bear in mind if they have to seek consent from the landowner it can put a dampener on things).
Yes, there's always some landowner, or farmer, somewhere, that would like to get rid of some ancient mound, or monument site, so's they can deep plough the field in preparation for a crop of genetically modified rape, or just so's they can extend their property and build a car park. ;)
 
the art of cap doffing

Hi Stu, Andro
That okay--I knew I was innocent! but search me what I did,so don't try to explain! These new fangled machines(computers) are a bit beyond my mature years, most of the time I haven't a clue, and just keep pressing buttons...........
Re Robin Hoods Grave, although there has been some improvement re access, it is still I think a case of what position you hold in the heirachy of important people,though they do allowed strictly regulated organised tours now, probably due to public pressure which has more or less forced the issue.There is still the paranormal aspect also, though there have been offers to bless or exorcise the land,though as far as I am aware this has not been done yet. Lets hope TR doesn't meet up with any of the lurking spooks..........

Barbara
 
update

I just spotted the Robin Hood thread while posting on Jack the Ripper,just to say there is a continued discussion on the archeology section about a time team dig at RHG,

Barbara
 
Robin Hood's grave 'dug up'
The bones of legendary outlaw Robin Hood may have been dug up in the mid-18th Century, according to a history buff.
Author Richard Rutherford-Moore, who has published two books about Robin Hood, bases the claim on research and a series of experiments with a bow and arrow.

According to most Robin Hood legends, the ailing outlaw determined his own burial site by shooting an arrow from his death bed.

He is said to have died in the gatehouse of Kirklees Priory, in West Yorkshire.

A monument in the privately owned grounds claims to mark Robin Hood's grave, but Mr Rutherford-Moore says it is impossible the outlaw's final arrow could have travelled the full 650 metres from the gatehouse.

Using measurements of the old priory building and his knowledge of archery in the 13th Century, Mr Rutherford-Moore fired 20 "test arrows" to re-enact the event.

He performed the experiment near his home in Sherwood Forest, Nottinghamshire, because it was unsafe to do so at Kirklees.

The tests were based on research and a number of "educated assumptions", such as the position of the former priory building relative to the bed, the type of bow being used and Robin Hood's health at the time.

Based on his shots, Mr Rutherford-Moore believes he determined the probable arrow landing site to within a five-metre radius.

Subsequent research has shown bones were removed from an unmarked grave at that spot during estate improvement work in the mid-18th Century, he says.

The whereabouts of those bones is unknown.

So if these bones were uncovered, were they the remains of history's most famous outlaw?

Earlier this year, a Cardiff-based academic announced that Robin Hood never existed, basing his conclusion on 20 years of study.

The idea of finding Robin Hood's bones sounds fanciful and, by Mr Rutherford-Moore's own admission, some of his research is based on legends dating back hundreds of years.

'Big coincidence'

But it is also founded on legitimate research and the bones found at Kirklees 250 years ago may have been significant, he says.

Mr Rutherford-Moore says: "Bones were found when they were laying a lead pipe... and they are at the exact spot where I calculated an arrow would have landed.

"That is a pretty big coincidence."

However, like any tale about Robin Hood, the truth will never be known for sure.

"You can never totally prove it, but people can make their own conclusions."
 
According to most Robin Hood legends, the ailing outlaw determined his own burial site by shooting an arrow from his death bed.
...buried in Friar Tuck's arse :D...

Sorry - am watching Tony Robinson's prog as I type
 
bang bang!!

Did anyone see the Tony Robinson programme--well, as well as Stu that is!! I have it on very reliable authority (haha!!) that it contained some very explosive material--would be interested in a few comments,as I was away

Barbara
 
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