The Grenfell Tower Fire

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Plenty of speculation on many threads, not least the Madeleine McCann one. No sense in getting particularly exercise about this particular one I don’t think.

Yet again, please do read the LRB article I linked above. It deals with most of the issues discussed here: the fridge, the cladding, the council, the Fire Brigade, the actions of government and opposition in the days and weeks after the disaster, partisan and ill-informed media, the conspiracy theories of local activists etc etc. Suffice to say that not many people covered themselves in glory although in the view of the author the council may be more sinned against than sinning.
Perhaps the reports before the Tribunal will carry more weight with the public and the Tribunal itself than one article which defends the Council and targets local activists.

The targeting of Mr Kebede on this thread was certainly partisan and ill-informed.

If you think anything on the McCann Thread is libelous then report it.
 
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I think you have misunderstood my posts. Originally people were accusing him (and at the time I didn't know who 'him' was) of being a terrorist who deliberately set the fire and left with suitcases packed with goodness knows what. I was pointing out (way back up the conversation) that, EVEN IF HE HAD run away, that there were many far less serious reasons why he might not want to talk to the authorities without being the murderer of 70-odd people. It transpired that he didn't run away at all, so there was no such reason.

As far as the 999 call is concerned, I had simply missed that it had already been entered in evidence. Mea culpa.

You know, typing replies on here is an imperfect way to communicate - it might be a good idea to ask people what they mean before getting excited.
There was never any evidence to suggest that Mr Kebede was ever up to anything illegal.

That didn't stop some posters on this thread from demonising him and I'm not referring to you.
 

Cochise

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There was never any evidence to suggest that Mr Kebede was ever up to anything illegal.

That didn't stop some posters on this thread from demonising him and I'm not referring to you.
OK, fair enough. It may have been open to misinterpretation but I was actually standing up for the guy.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Oh give it a rest Ramon.

There were plenty of reports in the MSM hinting at somewhat odd circumstances surrounding the start of the fire and I don't see why those should not be discussed.
It was you who floated some misinformation about Kebede being an illegal immigrant and went banging on about "Johnny foreigners". Now, thanks to the enquiry, those original suspicions have been debunked and Mr Kebede has been totally exonerated of any culpability. That should be enough.
The enquiry must now move on to all those involved who may not be exonerated and I suspect there may be several of them.
 
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Oh give it a rest Ramon.

There were plenty of reports in the MSM hinting at somewhat odd circumstances surrounding the start of the fire and I don't see why those should not be discussed.
It was you who floated some misinformation about Kebede being an illegal immigrant and went banging on about "Johnny foreigners". Now, thanks to the enquiry, those original suspicions have been debunked and Mr Kebede has been totally exonerated of any culpability. That should be enough.
The enquiry must now move on to all those involved who may not be exonerated and I suspect there may be several of them.
I wasn't the one who who raised suspicions about Mr Kebede time after time, it's a bit rich to try and blame me for what you and others did.

The "Johnny Foreigner" comment was about how some people here were portraying Mr Kebede and I pointed out that if he was an illegal immigrant he might have a bag packed. He was demonised in posts on this thread and you even demanded that he be questioned at the Tribunal as to why he hadn't fought the fire.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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We're all Fortean aficionados here, so it is not unreasonable for us to explore reports of unusual or weird activity surrounding the start of the fire. Just as with other Fortean discussions, once the strange stuff has been debunked, we accept that and move on. Can't you do the same?
 
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We're all Fortean aficionados here, so it is not unreasonable for us to explore reports of unusual or weird activity surrounding the start of the fire. Just as with other Fortean discussions, once the strange stuff has been debunked, we accept that and move on. Can't you do the same?
You are totally shameless given how you were demonising Mr Kebede only two days ago.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Your post is important to us... please continue to hold... etc
To experience a ridiculously long phone hold, press 1.
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stu neville

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To experience a ridiculously long phone hold, press 1.
To hear our current list of lame excuses, press 2.
To listen to a loop of inappropriate music that sounds like it's being played in a submarine, press 3.
To hear a soul-destroying and very long list of terms and conditions, press 4.
To speak to one of our untrained operators, whose command of English is minimal, press 5.
To hear this list again, press 6.
etc.
If you wish to speak to the manager, press 0.

Good morning.

I am currently reviewing all of the cited threads. As you know we now have to be extraordinarily careful with regard to potential action - we've been batting away potential litigants for years, most of which doesn't really break the surface, consisting as they do of increasingly frantic emails between the ed and myself, but now things are different.

How? We're largely on our own these days. And the publisher's largesse - which keeps this place online - may not be willing to extend to a defence counsel, instead going for a more incendiary option in which we would come off worst. As a result we have to balance free speech and opinion with the genuine risk of legal action.

There are many people on here very willing to take up cudgels on behalf of the oppressed. This is laudable as a concept but not always advisable in practice, and when challenge becomes entrenchment it tends to distract from the actual issue however relevant it may be.

So as I said I'm reviewing, and stuff may have to be hoiked or at least edited. I'll make it clear - as Yithian, Mercury Crest and I always do - if and when this happens. If there are further steps needed I'll pm people.
 

Quake42

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Today's Guardian points the finger at writer Andrew O'Hagen for inaccuracies/fake news about the fire:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/08/fake-news-grenfell-fire-andrew-ohagan
Interesting. I’ve referenced the article a few times because I thought it was (a) very well written and (b) an antidote to the standard media narrative on the tragedy. It didn’t demonise all activists but highlighted that some appeared to be using Grenfell to pursue other agendas, along with some conspiratorial thinking which seemed entirely resistant to facts - for example, around the local library. Again, a mindset of interest to Forteans.

I suspect the Guardian’s main beef with O’Hagen is unflattering references to the paper and its reporting on the tragedy. Journalists are often incredibly thin skinned about criticism of this nature.
 
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Today's Guardian points the finger at writer Andrew O'Hagen for inaccuracies/fake news about the fire:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/08/fake-news-grenfell-fire-andrew-ohagan
It certainly looks as if O'Hagen was fast and loose with the truth:

Luke Barratt of Inside Housing has pointed to inaccuracies in O’Hagan’s account of the role played by fire risk assessor Carl Stokes, while Melanie Coles, a nursery worker interviewed for the article, has complained that she was misquoted and misinformed as to the nature of the project. Video footage of her has been removed from the LRB’s website. At the inquiry this week, the barrister representing Behailu Kebede, in whose flat the fire began, attacked O’Hagan’s article for repeating what he said were lies (the online version of the piece has since been amended, though not footnoted). ...

Literary nonfiction, blending reporting with memoir and information gleaned from other sources, is a form in which many good books have been written. But my sense is that the LRB has overstepped the mark by choosing to publish this now. O’Hagan has taken the wildest, angriest outbursts, the shouts of “murderers!” made on a few occasions at councillors in the street, and spent a year making the case that they were unfair. In seeking to demolish one narrative, and exonerate one set of “conveniently posh” villains, he has created a gallery of new ones — among them some of the disaster’s victims.
 

Yithian

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escargot

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Two Tottenham tower blocks to be evacuated due to danger of collapse:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...tower-blocks-at-risk-of-catastrophic-collapse

Looks like the age of these ghastly 1960s/70s concrete monstrosities may be drawing to a close.
True, they've never been safe. Back in 1968 a tower block called Ronan Point partially collapsed after a gas explosion, killing four people. It was brand new. After that failure blocks were supposed to be more safely constructed, rather than there being a decision to stop packing people into them.

(I was old enough to read the newspaper and watch the TV news so I remember it well. It was a huge story. There was film of the damaged block on TV showing curtains blowing in the wind where the glass had gone from windows.

Made me think how proud those people had been of their homes in the block, where before they'd probably lived in poor slummy houses. My family had been moved in a similar way and we now had a bathroom!)
 

Cavynaut

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True, they've never been safe. Back in 1968 a tower block called Ronan Point partially collapsed after a gas explosion, killing four people. It was brand new. After that failure blocks were supposed to be more safely constructed, rather than there being a decision to stop packing people into them.
The blocks built in the fifties and early sixties were built in a different manner to that used on Ronan Point and were perfectly safe.
The method of construction originally used meant that the concrete was poured into and over a steel frame in situ. Later on the concrete and steel panels were prefabricated elsewhere and then bolted together at the site. Much less sturdy. It was the latter method that was used at Ronan Point.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Just wondering what people think regarding the unbelievably crass individuals who burnt a cardboard replica of Grenfell Tower on their Guy Fawkes night bonfire?
5 men have turned themselves into a London Police station and are being held awaiting probable charges on public order offences.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

Wretchedly crass and bad taste, without a doubt, but is it a crime? This seemed to get far more coverage for example than yet another murder by stabbing in London - the 6th in the past week.
 
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Quake42

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It’s in very poor taste. But do we really want to be living in a country where people are arrested for poor taste jokes in their own back garden? After all the whole ritual of effigy burning is a pretty distasteful tradition. But should it be criminal? I’d say not.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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It’s in very poor taste. But do we really want to be living in a country where people are arrested for poor taste jokes in their own back garden? After all the whole ritual of effigy burning is a pretty distasteful tradition. But should it be criminal? I’d say not.
Fair point.
In terms of crassness, this is probably up there with Billy Connolly cracking gags about Ken Bigley, who had been beheaded not long before by the Islamic State. Connolly certainly lost a lot of fans because of his appallingly misjudged humour, but I don't recall any people calling for his arrest.

Also, on the same page as The Guardian link above, they printed a photo of a Boris Johnson bonfire night effigy carrying the decapitated head of Theresa May.
Offensive? Quite possibly to some people, but a crime? Surely not.
 

escargot

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Just wondering what people think regarding the unbelievably crass individuals who burnt a cardboard replica of Grenfell Tower on their Guy Fawkes night bonfire?
5 men have turned themselves into a London Police station and are being held awaiting probable charges on public order offences.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

Wretchedly crass and bad taste, without a doubt, but is it a crime? This seemed to get far more coverage for example than yet another murder by stabbing in London - the 6th this week.
The latest stabbing is being widely reported. I've heard lots about it.

The Grenfell effigy burning to me looks like an act of hate (they mock the cut-out characters for example) but it's a bit of a stretch to call it a crime. I reckon the perps will not be charged but after the scare of their lives will behave from now on.
 

McAvennie

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I'll wait for the same articles in the British press, and quick action by the police, when it come to the burning effigies of others next 11 July...
 

PeteS

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It’s in very poor taste. But do we really want to be living in a country where people are arrested for poor taste jokes in their own back garden? After all the whole ritual of effigy burning is a pretty distasteful tradition. But should it be criminal? I’d say not.
Agreed. It's the "offended on behalf of " brigade again. Tasteless yes, but you can't legislate against bad taste.
 
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