Quite agree. The possibility that hardly ever seems to get a mention is that Hardrada and Tostig took over England. I think Tostig would not have lasted long but what sort of ruler of the Saxons would Hardrada have been?
Quite the contrary! I've been enjoying the discussion from the sidelines - it's an episode in history that I've never had cause to explore before.
I live down the road from Fulford and at the spot where the Vikings are thought to have camped, by the Ouse. (Pretty sure there's some dead uns under my garden and I know skeletons have turned up, in the village and in the 19thC, packed in the river bank).
I think counterfactual history is actually quite a Fortean topic making us realise what huge consequences a relatively minor issue can have.
That would mean that Morcar either discreetly stayed out of the way or sided with Hardrada. Edwin presumably following suite. Hardrada would either have walked into York or taken it quite easily (AFAIK it's walls were in a pretty bad state hence the decision to fight at Fulford) Hardrada would have had a base at York and not been caught out as easily by Harold, leading to the latter's defeat - possibly.
Yes! The Last English King is a great book imho...read it numerous times, one of me faves- another good factual book is Frank McLynn- 1066:The year of the three battles- really good too..recommend
Good points- but could Morcar have sat on his hands? After all the central tenet of Lordship and rule at that time was providing protection to your folk... and he’d only been in the job for about 15 months or so, so it was maybe a fait accompli that he had to take the field against Hardrada - and there’s the self interest too, Morcar wouldn’t want Tostig back in a real position of power, so again he had no choice but to fight...That would mean that Morcar either discreetly stayed out of the way or sided with Hardrada. Edwin presumably following suite. Hardrada would either have walked into York or taken it quite easily (AFAIK it's walls were in a pretty bad state hence the decision to fight at Fulford) Hardrada would have had a base at York and not been caught out as easily by Harold, leading to the latter's defeat - possibly.
What of Edwin and Morcar? Defect to Hardrada, probably not a good idea with Tostig about or wait and join Harold, boosting his numbers and even perhaps if he defeated Hardrada giving him a better chance at Hastings.
Or not...
You'd think there'd be ghost activity on the site... every self-respecting battlefield seems to have some. If it's a housing estate today, we need the ghostly housecarl in the kitchen, or else the charge of the Norman cavalry up Ryedale Crescent, or something.
That’s right- there’s been little found at Battle Abbey site- I was down there a while ago and chatting to the local museum curator, supposedly there had been a find a good few years back of a warrior in full chain mail etc, but that was it really, also I guess that as the Tapestry shows the dead were being stripped it seems whilst the fight was still going on, a full suit of chain mail, plus decent sword is estimated to cost by modern standards around 50k ... so naturally would have been a great bit of scavenging/robbery, so even more unlikely to leave much behind.
Ooo wouldn’t that be something- I’d buy a house there,
I should also add my apologies, for extending the discussion to any who’ve been bored as well.
What Tyler you are right the whole business of Edgar Atheling is a huge unknown. There doesn’t seem to be much known about his character or abilities. If he hadn’t manage to repel Hardrada would that have given William the excuse he needed to launch his invasion, thus “pinging” history back to something close to what we have today?
Alternatively if Hardrada had defeated Harold he would still have William to deal with. As you say he wouldn’t have been bothered about what the Pope, or anyone else had to say but he could still have lost. A different Harald being beaten by William in a different battle but again with a result close to what we have today.
If Hardrada had defeated them both then we would have been an essentially Danish Kingdom. I suspect that Tostig would have suffered an “accident” (falling backwards onto seven or eight swords or some such).
It almost seems as if fate was on William’s side. His “disaster” when his fleet was caught in a storm in early September on his first attempted crossing actually working in his favour, as if he had made it then Harold would have been waiting.
The whole business of a crossing in October is a piece of luck as well, most people would have ruled it out because of the weather, (just think of the problems the weather posed in 1944) but if William had delayed six months Harold would have been more prepared.
Edward should have nominated an heir to the assembled Witan, perhaps he didn’t
Again really good points... regardless of how you view William ( smash and grab merchant, thief, mass murderer imho) he really did bet the farm on one do or die chance- and somehow had the sheer force of personality to gather the biggest army Normandy had ever (and would ever) gather, hold it together, keep it pretty much disease free, and again hold it together for 2 weeks in enemy territory, so kudos to him there...I should also add my apologies, for extending the discussion to any who’ve been bored as well.
What Tyler you are right the whole business of Edgar Atheling is a huge unknown. There doesn’t seem to be much known about his character or abilities. If he hadn’t manage to repel Hardrada would that have given William the excuse he needed to launch his invasion, thus “pinging” history back to something close to what we have today?
Alternatively if Hardrada had defeated Harold he would still have William to deal with. As you say he wouldn’t have been bothered about what the Pope, or anyone else had to say but he could still have lost. A different Harald being beaten by William in a different battle but again with a result close to what we have today.
If Hardrada had defeated them both then we would have been an essentially Danish Kingdom. I suspect that Tostig would have suffered an “accident” (falling backwards onto seven or eight swords or some such).
It almost seems as if fate was on William’s side. His “disaster” when his fleet was caught in a storm in early September on his first attempted crossing actually working in his favour, as if he had made it then Harold would have been waiting.
The whole business of a crossing in October is a piece of luck as well, most people would have ruled it out because of the weather, (just think of the problems the weather posed in 1944) but if William had delayed six months Harold would have been more prepared.
Edward should have nominated an heir to the assembled Witan, perhaps he didn’t because, well, “accidents” happen?
(Almost) Back to topic, it seems that William was deliberately “harrying” the south on his arrival, perhaps to provoke Harold – once he knew him to be the victor at Stamford Bridge- as Wessex was his old earldom, to get him to rush to its defence. A more cautious but perhaps less popular course of action would be to send one or both of his brothers to harass William while he collected his forces. (As What Tyler said, Gyrth offered) It seems William had gambolled everything and would have had trouble getting his forces back to Normandy in the event of defeat. That could have been a way of subverting the Breton allies if the campaign started to look doubtful (Give us William and Odo etc. and we’ll give the rest of you boats home)
