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The Holy Blood & The Holy Grail

I read The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail (Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln) when it first came out. To me, it seemed an interesting theory with a similar riff to Chariots of the Gods. As EnolaGaia has pointed out upthread, the main nail on which the story hangs was later proved to be a fantastic fabrication. Nevertheless, the popularity of this number one bestseller spawned a whole library of books on a similar theme of Templars, Church Conspiracy, Bible Codes, Prophecies, Hidden Treasures - all related to ‘facts’ built around the Gospels with truth hidden in obscure documents or famous artworks.

And you should read Dan Brown. A scale has to have a low point you know.
Man, my reading list gets longer and longer. I'll hide DB at the very bottom of it... maybe someday when I am unable to move and have no other book to hand... But Chariots of the Gods sound interesting (though I have NOT googled it. I just like the title. It sounds like stuff I am reading for Actual Work at the moment!)
 
He's such a towering genius... she says, swooningly.

we can swoon jointly :)

I think that many/most fortean areas repay being studied on their own terms first, before launching into analysis. First catch your hare!
 
I honestly had never even heard of the Cathars before I started to read this book and I do consider myself to be more up on European heresies than most.

For the setious end of the stuff, have a look at Le Roy Ladurie's Montaillou.

Which has become heavily critiqued more recently.

And so the wheel turns...
 
Man, my reading list gets longer and longer. I'll hide DB at the very bottom of it... maybe someday when I am unable to move and have no other book to hand... But Chariots of the Gods sound interesting (though I have NOT googled it. I just like the title. It sounds like stuff I am reading for Actual Work at the moment!)
I first read Da Vinci Code on a holiday which took in London, Paris, Rennes le Chateau and back home to not far from Rosalyn Chapel. I almost felt I should be looking over my shoulder! For my sins I had to read it again when I was asked to write an article for FT about it. One of my favourite covers that issue!
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For the setious end of the stuff, have a look at Le Roy Ladurie's Montaillou.

Which has become heavily critiqued more recently.

And so the wheel turns...
Awesome, thanks! I will certainly do that. I admire Le Roy Ladurie, too. The Annales School were pretty cool dudes, and he was one of the coolest.
 
I found a second hand copy of the HBAHG in an old book shop in the 90s.

I loved it.

Found the Sign and the Seal by Graham Hancock not long after.

After the disappointment of Colin Wilson's clinical deconstruction of Erich von Däniken, I was once again inspired.

I travelled to Roslyn, Renne le Chateau, Mont Segur, followed the Cathar trail, staying in Montaillou, outside Foix. I've toured Notre Dame, Chartres and more.

I've been to the Holy Sepulcher and the Wailing Wall.

I've seen the Poussins in the Louvre and the Prado.

I'm still gutted the whole Prieure de Sion thing was a hoax.

Damn tricksie Frenchmen!

Edit to add: Renowned author Dan Brown can get in the fecking sea!*







*No, I'm not bitter. Why do you ask?
 
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Damn tricksie Frenchmen!

They have form! I doubt if the Prieure de Sion stuff would have existed without Fulcanelli's Mystère de cathédrales

It was Henry Lincoln who first presented the Rennes-le-Château mythos to a wide audience, via his books and television documentaries. Baigent and Leigh broadened the scope and played up the Church conspiracy angles. They were successful in their day but it was Dan Brown who hit the jackpot with his popular puzzle-books and Hollywood blockbusters.

I lapped up the Henry Lincoln shows, when I was a lad but the whole overheated cauldron had boiled dry by the time the Web allowed fact-checking for all! :cooll:
 
Hmm. Interesting! I've seen the word "hoax" used a few times now, and I am now curious to know who was behind all this if it was actually a conscious (and it seems successful) attempt to mislead. And why? Well, aside from the usual wily Frenchmen being wily, if course. And were the authors taken in by it, or in on the act? Does this refer to the documents in the BnF that they seem so keen on? Curiouser and curiouser!

OK, maybe a bit of pre-dinner reading is in order.
 
Sorry, last point before I do actually go and pick up the book again for pre-dinner reading. But it's interesting that Frances Yates is mentioned a lot. Now she's an interesting character!
 
Hmm. Interesting! I've seen the word "hoax" used a few times now, and I am now curious to know who was behind all this if it was actually a conscious (and it seems successful) attempt to mislead. And why? Well, aside from the usual wily Frenchmen being wily, if course. And were the authors taken in by it, or in on the act? Does this refer to the documents in the BnF that they seem so keen on? Curiouser and curiouser!

OK, maybe a bit of pre-dinner reading is in order.
Pierre de Plantard and yes to taken in.
 
I always say THBATHG is a book that actually changed my life. I read it in the long summer hols after doing my O levels. The book itself, even as a young 16 year old, always read like two separate books they’d crammed together to make a whole without actually supplying much evidence to link part one to part two.
However, at that time I would have described myself as a Christian. Not terribly seriously so, but I was generally accepting of the teaching that the Bible was the infallible word of god. The fact that so many ancient texts were left out because they were so contradictory, and that the canonical Bible was effectively put together centuries later was mind blowing.
It made me much more sceptical, much more questioning and eventually led to me doing a degree with the OU in Humanities with Religious Studies. I love it for opening my mind
 
I always say THBATHG is a book that actually changed my life. I read it in the long summer hols after doing my O levels. The book itself, even as a young 16 year old, always read like two separate books they’d crammed together to make a whole without actually supplying much evidence to link part one to part two.
However, at that time I would have described myself as a Christian. Not terribly seriously so, but I was generally accepting of the teaching that the Bible was the infallible word of god. The fact that so many ancient texts were left out because they were so contradictory, and that the canonical Bible was effectively put together centuries later was mind blowing.
It made me much more sceptical, much more questioning and eventually led to me doing a degree with the OU in Humanities with Religious Studies. I love it for opening my mind
That brings a thougjt to my mind, i wonder how widespread, amongst believers, is the knowledge that the bible, in the form we know it, was put together by a commitee of church hierarchy hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, and that many books and gospels, that didnt fit their narrative, wete omitted from the final version? i personally would have questioned the fact that there were 12 apostles, yet only 4 gospels, but i never was a Christian.
 
i wonder how widespread, amongst believers,

A believer writes: it is part of Catholic education if you get beyond the for-the-young stage. I used to be Pisky and one wing there held that the KJV was the gold standard and how God intends the Bible to be - often the 1611 version.

I don't think I personally know any practicing Christians - rather than the hatch, match and dispatch visitors or the Christmas Vigil Mass set (all of whom are loved and welcomed :) ) who don't know the practical history of the book.

Different parts of the universal church take different lines on the balance between revealed truth and scholarship being current and having it all fixed at various points in the past. Times and fashions change.

There is a tendency, indulged by different groups to a greater or lesser degree, to elevate the Bible rather than God. Rather like patriots who hunt for and explode over perceived slights to a piece of cloth.

Does that add anything @Souleater?

It is perhaps well to remember that believers do not read and study the Bible in the same way as non-believers. We aren't using the same glasses to read it! Our use of it is multilayered and complex.

Edit to add:

i personally would have questioned the fact that there were 12 apostles, yet only 4 gospels,

Can I ask why you would expect a gospel from each of them?
 
That brings a thougjt to my mind, i wonder how widespread, amongst believers, is the knowledge that the bible, in the form we know it, was put together by a commitee of church hierarchy hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, and that many books and gospels, that didnt fit their narrative, wete omitted from the final version? i personally would have questioned the fact that there were 12 apostles, yet only 4 gospels, but i never was a Christian.
In my second year with the OU, there was a middle aged woman on my course who was a committed Christian, and she was shattered to discover how much was omitted from the Bible, and how much of the Old Testament in particular was shared with other non-Christian faiths. My impression is that there are very few Christians who have an appreciation of the history of their faith, specially older people.
I was an atheist for many years, I’d now describe myself as a Pantheist. Maybe that’s me worrying about life after death as I get older though!
 
My impression is that there are very few Christians who have an appreciation of their faith, specially older people.

I think there is definitely a generational aspect. For Catholics you could see the changes as Vatican II changes came into use.

There has been a more questioning society in the west in general since WW2 and the faith has been part of it.

That poor woman @Mrs Migs :( I can just imagine.

What were you studying?
 
In my second year with the OU, there was a middle aged woman on my course who was a committed Christian, and she was shattered to discover how much was omitted from the Bible, and how much of the Old Testament in particular was shared with other non-Christian faiths. My impression is that there are very few Christians who have an appreciation of the history of their faith, specially older people.
I was an atheist for many years, I’d now describe myself as a Pantheist. Maybe that’s me worrying about life after death as I get older though!
I do like the Cathars version of Christianity, where earth is hell so things cant be any worse in the afterlife (paraphrasing for all im worth)
 
@Frideswide - it was hard to see. She really seemed devastated, and I was so sad for her. In spite of my own beliefs (or lack thereof) I think a belief in some kind of divinity is a wonderful thing, and I envy those who have that kind of mental security.
I did several religion courses with the Open University. I think it was the Introduction to Religions course that I met her on. The first module was Christianity, and I’m not sure she ever finished the course.
 
Can I ask why you would expect a gospel from each of them?
From what i was taught, during my religious ed classes at school, the 4 gospels are the stories of each disciples experiences of his time with Jesus, his teachings and the miracles he performed, i would have thought that the more examples and experiences of the life of Jesus included in the New Testaments, which are pretty much, the books of Jesus, the better, as a Christian (in general) would you not want to know as much about the son of god as you possibly could?
 
Thing about that book is that when Jesus comes back it just sort of fizzles out. That’s surely the most interesting bit. They should have done a sequel.
 
Further to this i would add, what was in the other gospels that the church didnt want published and why?
Various things that didn’t fit the narrative of what the Fourth Century Church considered to be the life of the son of God. Temper tantrums, and the killing (and resurrection) of another child when Jesus was young. Physical closeness with others, including women. Political stuff. Nothing truly shocking, but all stuff that detracted from the view of Jesus as divine that they wanted to project. Interestingly, the four gospels of the New Testament are wildly different on many details. If you’re interested, any books by Bart Ehrman are a good place to start exploring.
 
Further to this i would add, what was in the other gospels that the church didnt want published and why?

I think that there used to be an evening class at the University of Glasgow on the history of the bible and the history of what people hahve made of the books that make it up. It's not really hidden knowledge, and it's always exciting when a new source comes to light! So we know the answers to the above at least in part :) There are discussions here, for example. Put a request in to Threadfinder General? https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/threadfinder-general-lost-threads-located.21261/

I'm thinking that, for example,

* were they all literate or able to dictate?

* how many died before they produced their version? History literally being written by the survivors.

* in 2 millennia many books and writings get lost even without editorial actions. We only have a fraction of the purely roman writings of the same date, for example.

* in that context, how many saw writing/dictating as a priority?How many of the 11+1 were needed to do the esoteric task of writing? Probably wasn't seen as the most immediate way of spreading the gospel - the word just means good news - and to back this up we have, for example, all the epistles. I /think/ there are about 20 of them. And four Gospels.

It's important to look at it in context.

Edit to add:

If you’re interested, any books by Bart Ehrman are a good place to start exploring.

seconded!
 
Temper tantrums, and the killing (and resurrection) of another child when Jesus was young.

Yep! these things were current, along with much else, in post roman and mediaeval europe as part of the folk landscape.
 
From what i was taught, during my religious ed classes at school, the 4 gospels are the stories of each disciples experiences of his time with Jesus, his teachings and the miracles he performed, i would have thought that the more examples and experiences of the life of Jesus included in the New Testaments, which are pretty much, the books of Jesus, the better, as a Christian (in general) would you not want to know as much about the son of god as you possibly could?
Well you were lucky. Our RE teacher called ‘Spike’ dilligently redacted all references to circumcision in our textbooks with a thick black pen, engaged in a constant fumigation war against flies covering us with fly spray and then he would finish the lesson with some sort of discordant, possibly Russian, experimental piano mangling that was all hell on the ears.
He was one of those guys who kept his hands retracted up the sleeves of his jacket at all times with just hooked index fingers showing and there was usually a queue outside the headmaster’s office of the poor souls he regularly sent there. However, the lewd biro drawings of massive cocks on the Disciples as well as the camels and massive tits added to all the women in the book illustrations made up for it.
That is essentially my religious education schooling right there.

On the massive plus side, he let us use his room and his record player where we discovered The Sex Pistols Anarchy in the UK.
 
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Hmm. Interesting! I've seen the word "hoax" used a few times now, and I am now curious to know who was behind all this if it was actually a conscious (and it seems successful) attempt to mislead.
I for one believe that it was the Comte de Sainte-Germaine, and that he's still at it!
 
I always say THBATHG is a book that actually changed my life. I read it in the long summer hols after doing my O levels. The book itself, even as a young 16 year old, always read like two separate books they’d crammed together to make a whole without actually supplying much evidence to link part one to part two.
However, at that time I would have described myself as a Christian. Not terribly seriously so, but I was generally accepting of the teaching that the Bible was the infallible word of god. The fact that so many ancient texts were left out because they were so contradictory, and that the canonical Bible was effectively put together centuries later was mind blowing.
It made me much more sceptical, much more questioning and eventually led to me doing a degree with the OU in Humanities with Religious Studies. I love it for opening my mind
I can imagine that so vividly. It would have been great to read it for the first time at that kind of age. Even if it all came tumbling down like a house of cards under greater scrutiny, it captures the imagination like few "proper" history books can.
 
That brings a thougjt to my mind, i wonder how widespread, amongst believers, is the knowledge that the bible, in the form we know it, was put together by a commitee of church hierarchy hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, and that many books and gospels, that didnt fit their narrative, wete omitted from the final version? i personally would have questioned the fact that there were 12 apostles, yet only 4 gospels, but i never was a Christian.
I don't think very widespread at all. The NT is a product of the fourth century, not the first.
 
I've got a funny relationship with Christianity. I was raised a Catholic, but in a fairly loose way. I did my First Communion but never Confirmation because my parents gave me the choice and I backed out. Since coming to Britain, I've found the Anglican church to be a nice compromise between the dogma of Catholicism, which I dislike, and the ritual and community, which I esteem and respect. I think though that my central issue with it is the issue of a creator God and all that entails. What I do esteem - I won't say worship, because that's not at all the right word - is the history and sheer weight of human endeavour that has gone into creating all the art and architecture and literature that built out from the original Christian inheritance. I never go into a small parish church, no matter how isolated, without feeling that sense of continuity, beauty, and universal community. Even without God or the Bible, I feel the presence of millions of "souls". Maybe that's just my imagination, but it helps me feel like I am not entirely without a spiritual centre of some kind.

I haven't been inside very many synagogues or mosques or other "holy" buildings, but I recall a similar feeling when removing my shoes and stepping into a mosque in East Jerusalem. It's the beauty and peace of such places that brings on the reflection, I think.
 
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