The Invention Of Jesus

INT21

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#31
Comfortably Numb,

That's a bit like asking what is the difference between Christians and Muslims.

Basically the Jews get their stuff from the Old Testament, Abraham et al. The Christians didn't exist until much later and are, of course, named after their phrophet, and Islam is only 1500 years old, give or take.

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dr wu

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#32
Might I please ask a serious question?

It's one of those things you think you should know the answer to, yet never have seen it explained.

What is the different belief between Christians and Jews?

So far as I'm aware, is it not that the Jewish belief is founded on the Old Testament, however they do not accept that Jesus was the son of God?
I am no expert on 'religions' but that is also how I understand it.
The Jews do not believe Jesus was literally the Son of God...so they follow the OT primarily the Torah which are the first 5 books of the Bible.,
The Pentateuch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
 

dr wu

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#34
^Yes...all the original founders claimed to have visions with God talking to them.....Moses said the Burning Bush as God spoke to him....Jesus said God spoke to him often in his life and told him to do what he did and Mohammed claimed to have spoken to Allah or God also and was told to start Islam. So they all had 'visions' as did Paul/Saul(a Jew originally) who basically started Christianity but never even met Jesus.
Islam believes that Moses and Jesus ,etc are prophets of Allah.
 

Comfortably Numb

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#35
I am no expert on 'religions' but that is also how I understand it.
The Jews do not believe Jesus was literally the Son of God...so they follow the OT primarily the Torah which are the first 5 books of the Bible.,
The Pentateuch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
Wow.... That's the first time I've ever comprehended this. I always thought the Jewish faith was simply another branch of Christianity. It most profoundly isn't then...
 

INT21

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#36
Not sure what you mean by 'common ground'.

The only commonality seems to be that they all acknowledge an omnipresent all powerful deity.

All the rest is 'We have the truth, and our gang is bigger than your gang and God is on our side; and you had best remember that'.

It's all a power game anyway.

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INT21

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#37
Comfortably Numb,

...I always thought the Jewish faith was simply another branch of Christianity. It most profoundly isn't then...

Your Joking....please tell me your joking.

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INT21

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#39
Comfortably Numb.

From the ringtone thread...

Mythopoeika said:


Israelites by Desmond Dekker?

You do realise I can't get this song out of my head now..
.:dbana:

Aha! now I see where the Moses connection above comes from.

By the way. More than one learned Jewish archeologist has been forced to the conclusion that the Exodus didn't happen.

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Comfortably Numb

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#42

Cochise

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#43
Well there you go...! Another question I've never really seen answered is exactly that!

Is there not some 'common ground' therein?

Yes. but the trouble with 'religion' as opposed to 'faith' is that organised religion is really about power.

It's broadly true to say that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the same religion.

Jews don't recognise Christ as either a prophet or the son of God, and thus ignore his teachings. They ignore Mohammed.

Christians of course recognise Christ, and should treat his teachings as the Second Covenant between Man and God replacing the original deal with the Jews (although if you are a Jew that converts strictly speaking you should respect both covenants) . Christians regard Mohammed as a false prophet, particularly as unlike the other prophets he was an earthly power.

Islam recognises Christ as a prophet, not God, and believe his teachings have been perverted. They regard treating Jesus as God as blasphemy, because there is only one God. Christians get round this by the 3 in 1 belief. Islam believes that Mohammed is the greatest of the Prophets, particularly favoured by God, and his interpretations of the covenants as laid out in the Koran should be followed exactly.

We all believe in the same God and the same history as set out in the Bible (the narrative history, not obviously the religious parts). We all believe in the same old testament prophets. Peace is at the heart of both Christianity and Islam, and the Jewish religion is non-evangelical. And yet we have slain each other in hundreds of millions through the ages. Curious, isn't it?
 

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#45
...and yet we have slain each other in hundreds of millions through the ages. Curious, isn't it?
Magnifcent post - really interesting.

See that last bit there... when growing up and lamenting to my Dad that much of it all didn't make sense, he said, "There's more people been killed in the name of God, than anything else".
 

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#47
Is it? Or is it just that any organisation will eventually tend towards self-preservation and attempts to maintain authority?
 

Mikefule

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#48
Judaism (the religion of the Jewish people), Christianity, and Islam (the Muslim religion), are all Abrahamic religions.

If two or more religions are monotheistic (believe that there is only one god) that does not necessarily mean that it is the same god. However, in the case of these three major religions, it is definitely the same god. They all agree on that.

Abraham was given the birth name, Abram. He was Jewish. God later renamed him "Abraham" which meant "father of nations".

Abraham made the first "covenant" between man and God. It is this covenant that is the basis of the Jewish people believing themselves to be "God's chosen people."

In the Jewish religion, it was foretold that a Messiah would be sent by God. A Messiah is a saviour or liberator of a people.

Jesus is said to have lived at a time when the Romans ruled Israel. The Jewish people therefore needed a "saviour or liberator". There were no doubt many people who would have tried to claim the title for themselves.

Jesus' teachings were of humility, forgiveness, and turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, and seeking salvation in the love of God.

Christians believe that a person who follows the teachings of Jesus is "saved" and"liberated" (in a spiritual sense) and therefore that Jesus was the Messiah.

Most of the Jews of the time were hoping for a rather more pragmatic approach from God: a Messiah who would lead them to safety and liberation in a more physical and practical sense — probably a war leader or hero.

This is where the first split occurred, with most of the Jews sticking to the Jewish religion and waiting for the Messiah, while a few Jews and non Jews ("gentiles") accepted that Jesus was the Messiah and moved towards what they considered to be spiritual salvation through following Jesus' teachings.

Today, there are some people who follow much of the Jewish religion, but believe that Jesus was the Messiah. These are "Messianic Jews". They would no doubt offer a more nuanced explanation than this short paragraph!

Islam (the Muslim religion) is founded on the teachings of Mohammed, who was born around 570 AD. He led an army at one stage in his career and in that sense he was a war leader. However, he is also believed to have been a prophet who received instructions directly from God.

All 3 religions — Judaism, Christianity and Islam — accept much of what is in the Old Testament (Jewish religious texts from before the time of Jesus. Specifically, they all believe that Abraham was a prophet of God.

  • Abraham may have existed as an actual living person, but I am aware of no clear historical evidence of this. Alternatively, he could be a mythical figure to who several stories and legends have been attached.
  • Jesus may well have existed as an actual living person.
  • Mohammed certainly existed.

  • Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah.
  • Christians believe that Jesus was not only a prophet, but that he was actually God's only son.
  • Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not as great a prophet as Mohammed, and that he was most certainly not the son of God.
Belief or faith are very much a personal matter. However, religion is an organised phenomenon, designed by people for their own purposes which may be good or ill. As others have observed, when they all worship the same God, and agree on so much, it is surprising that there has been so much bloodshed. However, in my view, religion is not to blame for most of that. Religion has often been the excuse for, but seldom the primary cause of conflict.
 
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INT21

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#49
Cochise,

...Peace is at the heart of both Christianity and Islam, ..

Hardly.

The Christian church points to Islam and says ' see, it's 'best do as we say' with you lot'.

The Muslims may reply ' Maybe, but do tell us more about the Inquisition..'.

The Jews will shrug and say' Oy Vay.. but, as Rabbi Goldman explains...'.

Islam does give you the choice. But it is very much like a Mafia 'offer you can't refuse'.

Thank God I'm an atheist.

Hmmm, there is something wrong with that last line. Can't quite put my finger on it .

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INT21

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#51
Xanatic,

Same thing. Any organisation required power down from the top. How else can it organise ?

Christianity refers to the 'flock'. And all sheep need to be herded.

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INT21

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#52
Mikefule,

One major difference between Judaism and Christianity seems to centre around the concept of heaven and an afterlife.

This appears to be the cornerstone of Christianity, but the Jews say take it or leave it. No need to believe in an afterlife.

Which tend to make one wonder, what is the reward then ?

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Comfortably Numb

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#53
="Mikefule, post: 1815739, member: 29567"...Jews do not accept that Jesus was a prophet...

...Christians believe that Jesus was not only a prophet, but that he was actually God's only son...

...Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not as great a prophet as Mohammed, and that he was most certainly not the son of God.
observed, when they all worship the same God, and agree on so much, it is surprising that there has been so much bloodshed.

...However, in my view, religion is not to blame for most of that. Religion has often been the excuse for, but seldom the primary cause of conflict.
Remarkable post, which unravels what I have found often confusing.

Enormous thanks for taking that time and bet I'm not alone in this...
 

Comfortably Numb

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#54
...Jesus' teachings were of humility, forgiveness, and turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, and seeking salvation in the love of God...
Did his Father not allegedly preach otherwise...?

"I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them".

Attributed as 'Ezekiel 25:17'.

Don't perceive much in the way of compassion there.
 

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#55
Int21: As I understand it, the difference is christians think they go to heaven. Jews think they will wake up in a paradise here on Earth.
 

INT21

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#56
Comfortably numb,

.."I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them" ..

That was Donald Trump announcing his policy on North Korea.

(In a purely non-political way, naturally)

INT21.
 

Comfortably Numb

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#57
Int21: As I understand it, the difference is christians think they go to heaven. Jews think they will wake up in a paradise here on Earth.
OK then, only fair to invite Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and Hindus and whomever else to join the discussion.

Thought occurs though... they can't all be right...
 

dr wu

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#59
OK then, only fair to invite Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and Hindus and whomever else to join the discussion.

Thought occurs though... they can't all be right...
Well.....Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are Christian splinter sects but Hindus have no connection at all to Christianity or Monotheism.
But I'd love to hear some points of views on religion from all 3 on the forum.
:)
 

Comfortably Numb

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#60
Maybe non of them are. Or worst still, one is....

But which one ?

INT21
If you were to ask such an assembly, "Why is your God the real one and all the others are not?"

Perchance a ubiquitous response, "Because God spoke to Me!"...?
 
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