The Invention Of Jesus

Xanatic*

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Since that killing the newborns thing never happened, why would that help?
 

INT21

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Just trying to tie down the date Herod died.

As the 'BC-AD' thing didn't come into effect until the alleged birth of Jesus. ( how could it ?).

So I am assuming that things were 'in the fifth year of the reign of King (X)' if one wanted to refer to an event that took place in the past.

By the way, Xanatic, can you prove the the killing never happened ? Many may disagree with you.

INT21.
 
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Analogue Boy

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Recycled1,

..I still have every respect for the non materialistic life style he was advocating, ..

All well and good, but the things of life, even the simple things, have to come from somewhere. Imagine if everyone adopted, let's admit it, the 'freeloader' lifestyle that Jesus was pushing. Who would do all the work ?

INT21.
Well, in Bagpuss, it’s the mice. But that’s the communist propaganda I was bought up with. A big Reddish fat cat with a woodpecker overseer in Trotsky’s glasses lording it over a bunch of singing mice who did all the actual hard work.
 

INT21

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Never watched Bagpuss.

But it does sound a bit like a Union run factory system.

INT21.
 

Naughty_Felid

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Well, in Bagpuss, it’s the mice. But that’s the communist propaganda I was bought up with. A big Reddish fat cat with a woodpecker overseer in Trotsky’s glasses lording it over a bunch of singing mice who did all the actual hard work.
ffs did you really need to say that? Fuck. childhood dreams blown to atoms...

If I've got time, which I haven't, I'm going to challenge this view AB. It was an Anarchist/communist compound if anything. Freewill was very obviously there. Runs off to google Kropotkin and Bagpuss.
 
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Analogue Boy

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Just trying to tie down the date Herod died.

INT21.
Why bother? The thing about Jesus is the Miracles and why did they happen?
Well, because they had to. Ancient Egypt had all the narrative and criteria for the acceptance of a Messiah. It all goes way back further than the time of Herod. And that’s without bringing Mithras into it. Which I usually do around Christmas time.
 

Analogue Boy

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ffs did you really need to say that? Fuck. childhood dreams blown to atoms...

If I've got time, which I haven't, I'm going to challenge this view AB. It was an Anarchist/communist compound if anything. Freewill was very obviously there. Runs off to google Kropotkin and Bagpuss.


The first part quickly establishes the pecking order of the Pinkish Premier, his sinister Minister and the downtrodden workers who are given a daily lesson on the benefits of mass production. And yes. The King is Jeremy Corbyn.
 

Naughty_Felid

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The first part quickly establishes the pecking order of the Pinkish Premier, his sinister Minister and the downtrodden workers who are given a daily lesson on the benefits of mass production. And yes. The King is Jeremy Corbyn.
Christ... :(
 

INT21

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Analogue Boy,

You are missing the point.

The point being that according to some accounts Herod died around four years before JC was born.

Is that were so, then he couldn't have been King at the time of the birth, could he.

It's only of academic interest to me. But hard-line Christians may have some trouble with this business of dates.

INT21.
 

EnolaGaia

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I can't prove the killings didn't happen but I know of no non-biblical sources which mention it. Herod wasn't a popular guy, likely some contemporary of his would have mentioned it.
That's an important point. Herod had a lot of people (including his own sons) executed during his reign, and he was known to be paranoid about retaining his position as 'King of Judea' - especially after taking the wrong side in the Antony / Octavian conflict.

The massacre is mentioned in Matthew alone, it echos themes from the story of Moses (Pharaoh killing babies to eliminate an alleged usurper), and non-Christian historical accounts don't mention it at all.
 

INT21

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Which part of ancient Egyptian records does this come from.

If we consider ancient Egypt to be the period around four thousand years ago, Herod wasn't in that picture. He was of the time of the alleged birth of Christ, two thousand years later.

INT21.
 

Analogue Boy

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If I’ve learned anything on the internet it’s like there’s increasingly less proof for anything. Usually it used to be left for academic historians to wrangle themselves into submission for the top slot but now anyone can have a go.

The trail went cold 2000 years ago. In the last few decades, analysis of the stories just make things muddier.

Forget Herod. He’s irrelevant to the point of the creation of the Jesus myth.
 

INT21

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...Forget Herod. He’s irrelevant to the point of the creation of the Jesus myth...

Oh well, guess that's the end of it.

But I am sure I read somewhere that Herod showed up early in the story.

INT21 :)
 
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Ermintruder posted that video by Richard Carrier...which was indeed interesting and addressed the whole Jesus as an historical person.
Even he admitted in the vid that there was a 33% chance he hid indeed exist. Imho his explanation of the percentages (subjective based on his reasoning) aspect was murky as well.
I suspect after years of reading about this in the past that someone like that probably walked and preached in that area and became the template for the Jesus myth (exaggerated to please the devotees of that age) as we know it today.
 

INT21

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'Leave your family and follow me' really was not a good message. Mind, Buddha did the same.

So down through history there is a trail of deserted wives and abandoned children who can point the finger at religion.

INT21.
 

EnolaGaia

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... Forget Herod. He’s irrelevant to the point of the creation of the Jesus myth.
No, he's not irrelevant - especially in the context of considering the notion the Jesus narrative was a Roman invention.

There are very few elements of the doctrinal / biblical narrative correlated with specific timeframes and known individuals:

- the requirement to report to a particular town to pay tax under the reign of Augustus
- the citation of Herod as a king advised of a miraculous birth and the instigator of a massacre of children
- the involvement of Pontius Pilate as the prefect in office at the time of the crucifixion

The only other timeframe clue - Passover - occurs annually and is itself subject to variant interpretations during the period in question.

Any evaluation of the narrative's possible historicity and / or assessment of its fictional formulation needs to address whether these are clues to historical events, mistaken attributions, or deliberate fictional embellishments.
 

EnolaGaia

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... I’m pointing out that the miracles (TM) were expected as they were versions of the earlier god tales and miracles from ancient Egypt reported as actual commentary.
They also suggestively reflect narratives from the east - especially Mesopotamia. There are certain points that some have reasonably claimed reflect elements of similarly early or even earlier Zoroastrian narratives.
 

Comfortably Numb

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Sorry Comfortably Numb and INT21.
I really shouldn't let myself post things when I've drunk too much wine -it loosens my tongue too much!
Welcome to this forum, somehow... also resuscitated from death...

Hence, you have passed the first test.

If you continue to post when absolutely blooter... et al... meet many, similar, both friendly and welcoming incumbents herein.

It *will*, eventually, become your, new. spiritual home... :bish:
 

Comfortably Numb

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Is not the debate, eternally simplified:

Either the Biblical story of creation is factual, or it is not.

As it's not factual, anything laid on that specious foundation - predominantly incorporating Jesus therein is inevitability fallacious.

If the Bible, especially Genesis, is comprehensively exposed as such, then why even remotely debate whether Jesus performed miracles...
 
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Ermintruder

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Whilst a paraphrased recaptulation of one of Hitchens' classic criticisms of Christianity is not directly-germane to the literal historicity of the Christ Jesus of Nazareth, it is nevertheless a valid counterblast with which to present upon vague Christian apologists and tenured parasitic Xian theologians alike:

Hitch said:
Why would a loving creator God decide to ignore all previous generations of mankind (ie in the 200,000 years of sapient humanity preceding the birth of a redemptive Christ, or from the time of Adam & Eve if preferred), condeming each and every pre-Christian soul to absolute oblivion?

And why did He elect to send his "only begotten son" to be born into an almost-illiterate part of the world for that time in history (thus predicating probable misinterpretation and flawed record-keeping) rather than ensuring the birth of such a demigod within the much-more civilized and educated kingdoms of Asia and the far east?
 

EnolaGaia

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Is not the debate, eternally simplified:
Either the Biblical story of creation is factual, or it is not.
As it's not factual, anything laid on that specious foundation - predominantly incorporating Jesus therein is inevitability fallacious.
If the Bible, especially Genesis, is comprehensively exposed as such, then why even remotely debate whether Jesus performed miracles...
I'm not buying this contextualization of the matter ...

It's akin to denying the facticity or the need to establish facticity of (e.g.) nuclear weapons and the Cold War because the steady state cosmological models that prevailed during their inception were overturned and effectively refuted during the 1960's.

There's no ironclad linkage between the two narratives at issue. The Genesis narrative is an exercise in the realm of cosmogony. The Jesus narrative is an exercise in the realm of spirituality and morals / ethics.
 

Xanatic*

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Comfortably Numb: We are trying to determine if there was a historical Jesus. That doesn't mean he needs to have been the son of God. We know Mohammed existed, but he was no prophet either. Though if Jesus was real and just a wandering preacher, there is probably little reason why any contemporary records would have mentioned him. It seems they were not unusal at the time.
 

Comfortably Numb

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I'm not buying this contextualization of the matter ...

It's akin to denying the facticity or the need to establish facticity of (e.g.) nuclear weapons and the Cold War because the steady state cosmological models that prevailed during their inception were overturned and effectively refuted during the 1960's.

There's no ironclad linkage between the two narratives at issue. The Genesis narrative is an exercise in the realm of cosmogony. The Jesus narrative is an exercise in the realm of spirituality and morals / ethics.
Much appreciated and thought provoking reply, thank you.

After due consideration, perhaps no need for an ontological discussion at all...

Either the Bible, or any other religious scribe is a literal truth, or it isn't.

All of said are comprehensively exposed, now that we have an infinitely greater understanding of science, which was impossible at that time.

Consequently, anything arising from such a specious foundation is fallacious.

What, precisely, is the argument otherwise?
 

Cochise

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Much appreciated and thought provoking reply, thank you.

After due consideration, perhaps no need for an ontological discussion at all...

Either the Bible, or any other religious scribe is a literal truth, or it isn't.

All of said are comprehensively exposed, now that we have an infinitely greater understanding of science, which was impossible at that time.

Consequently, anything arising from such a specious foundation is fallacious.

What, precisely, is the argument otherwise?
You can't dismiss the whole thing that way. It is obviously a mish mash, starting with a cosmology, then the history of the tribes of Israel;, then the story of the Messiah. Anyone who maintains the Bible is literally true hasn't read it. But you can't extrapolate that to say that as a result there is no truth in it (or other religious books, for that matter). On that basis we would have to disregard virtually all dark age and medieval writings as well.
 
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