The Madeleine McCann Disappearance

escargot

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I personally (in my humble opinion, just my views, don't sue me, etc. etc.) think that in the Madeleine McCann case there is more than just the 'white woman syndrome' going on (e.g. the high-up connections, etc, I won't go into it all) - but yes, as far as the media are concerned at any rate, Maddie is going to tug at more heart-strings from the sheep public than others (like Charlene) would.

(Sadly, I hadn't even heard of Charlene until this linked article and I'm probably not the only one to say that).
My point was about the media coverage. Whether or not the McCanns have connections in high places, Madeleine fits the bill for a juicy and lucrative ongoing mystery. The tabloids love her.
 

Schrodinger's Zebra

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My point was about the media coverage. Whether or not the McCanns have connections in high places, Madeleine fits the bill for a juicy and lucrative ongoing mystery. The tabloids love her.
Oh yes, I quite agree. :nods: Once just has to look at the photographs chosen to be shown on the media (the one in the linked article about Charlene is a classic example). Designed to tug at heart-strings if one is so inclined.

I don't know where we've gone as a society, where class and photogenic looks make a person more important (as far as the media, and some members of the public, are concerned) than someone without those attributes. *shakes head*



It's a lot easier to feel sympathy for an innocent child betrayed, than for a teenaged Welfare State product who chose to "push forks repeatedly into plug sockets", tolerated if not abetted by some crap parenting and a PC unwillingness to look into grooming gangs.

A brief scan of reports into the Charlene case suggests strongly that the authorities know exactly what happened to her. However, knowing and being able to prove are two very different things.

Reducing these matters to a simplistic Procrustean "class, innit?" issue helps nobody.

maximus otter
I haven't looked into the Charlene case but its interesting if the police are unable to prove what happened due to PC issues (I've heard plenty about other grooming gang cases where nothing is done for fear of being racist or what-have-you).

I was going to say, if the police involved had access to as much money as the McCann case would it make a difference? Sadly if it's down to being politically correct then I guess the answer would be no?
 

WanderingFox

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In response to Wandering Fox [edit for not understanding who it was aimed at]'s post - I'd start with reading Goncalo Amaral's book (the Portuguese detective) and then watch Rich Hall's videos. See what you think (both easily found on line)
As well as the above suggestions, search for a forum Completely dedicated to the case (I won't say the name; I alluded to it several posts ago). There's heaps of information in that forum, it is very well researched and there is a lot of information (facts as well as speculation) to digest on there.
I'll look into both. Thanks. :)
 

henry

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the more you keep a case in the public eye, the better your chances of getting it solved ... its in all the guidebooks charlie
 

kamalktk

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LordRsmacker

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As well as the above suggestions, search for a forum Completely dedicated to the case (I won't say the name; I alluded to it several posts ago). There's heaps of information in that forum, it is very well researched and there is a lot of information (facts as well as speculation) to digest on there. I will state again that I'm not affiliated with the site, don't post on it either, I'm just very impressed with it.
That site certainly is a serious rabbit-hole to drop down, it's consumed many hours of my time when I really had better things to do! I don't know if the info provided is legit, or whether it's just a load of nutters muddying the waters. I mean, Superinjunctions generally have a way of collapsing once people outside the UK get to hear of them, don't they? And surely it's a straightforward thing to find out if a certain person WAS convicted of a crime and placed on a register, without having to resort to blaming other mysterious parties for hacking and wiping computer records? (I'm not saying it's impossible to hack records either, but that we're not talking about ancient history and surely there's a paper record of this supposed conviction, that can be viewed by anyone who walks into the relevant public office? ) Clearing things like these points up, absolutely, would make it easier to see the wood for the trees. Alas, too many of the contributors start off well with credible sounding "facts", then through other links to other sites/forum/blogs, you see them veering off into bizarre shape-shifting lizard folk territory, and it becomes clear they have only managed to hold it together to put forward "info" on Jill Havern's site before spinning off into the land of Wibble.

I have formulated a theory myself...which I won't go into explicitly here, but I'll just say that I think someone saw a golden opportunity to get their star players working their magic, and rather than it being a nice quick straightforward case of "Caring, Nice Mr So-and-so Saves The Day and Maddie", it soon became clear the case was a tragedy with ahem, toxic implications and that dis-associating the team from it all was absolutely essential, but allowed the real fate of the little girl to be lost amongst all the arse-covering and face-saving. I'm sure someone got their backside kicked for suggesting getting involved, and that to keep their names out of the mire, they have had to obscure something that was far nastier than anyone had forseen when a child was reported missing whilst enjoying a normal family holiday.
 

AgProv

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Mikefule

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I don't know where we've gone as a society, where class and photogenic looks make a person more important (as far as the media, and some members of the public, are concerned) than someone without those attributes. *shakes head*
Absolutely. Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, two white kids, killed, and strangers travelled across the country to leave flowers at the "shrine" at the school gates. The media were full of heartrending stories about the kids.

Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis, two black girls, gunned down in Birmingham, I remembered the incident but had to look up their names. Media reports concentrated on the problem of crime in the black community.

In both cases, 2 girls died tragically. Treated totally differently by the media and the wider public.

Madeleine McCann, white middle class girl from Liverpool goes missing in Portugal, and I saw, in Nottingham, graffiti saying "We love you Maddy".

Meanwhile 2 or 3 kids a week in the UK are killed by parents, carers or close relatives, and countless more are abused, and we seldom hear or think about it.
 
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escargot

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I think the main difference is the way she just disappeared. And the rather suspicious circumstances. Nothing to do with race or class.

INT21.
We have discussed this. Her disappearance has had a lot of media coverage because she is the type to get it - young, white, legitimate, parents respectable etc.
The media go for stories about people they think we'll care about. The public are sadly less interested in the problems of poor, black adolescent males, for example.
 

maximus otter

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We have discussed this. Her disappearance has had a lot of media coverage because she is the type to get it - young, white, legitimate, parents respectable etc.
The media go for stories about people they think we'll care about. The public are sadly less interested in the problems of poor, black adolescent males, for example.
We have discussed Maddy because there's a mystery involved.

There is no mystery in the murder of Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis. They were cut down by four "poor, black males" using an illegal machine pistol.

maximus otter
 

pandacracker

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We have discussed Maddy because there's a mystery involved.
I agree. And where there's a mystery there's scope for all sorts of speculation and any person's "what I reckon happened was..." can be expressed and considered because we don't know what really happened.

A lot of public money has been spent on all this and the McCanns themselves want the story to remain in the public consciousness so further investigation is encouraged.

On the recommendation of other posters I watched the Rich Hall videos on you tube. His analysis of many aspects of the case is forensic (to the extent I fell asleep during a couple of them) and the Peter Hyatt videos are particularly fascinating (didn't nod off during those, quite the opposite actually!)
 

Mikefule

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We have discussed Maddy because there's a mystery involved.

There is no mystery in the murder of Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis. They were cut down by four "poor, black males" using an illegal machine pistol.

maximus otter
We in the Fortean forum are discussing the Madeleine McCann case primarily because of the mystery and the various conspiracy theories. The absence of a mystery, or of an abnormal or bizarre feature of some kind, is why there is no thread on Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis. Agreed, absolutely.

However, as an interesting digression, it is worth noting that the media coverage, and the attitude of the public generally, is affected by issues of colour, "attractiveness", class and all those other things. It's sad, but true. The violent death of any child should be a matter of horror, and the fact that that anyone can do such a thing ought to be a mystery.

It is then worth mentioning that the Home Office estimates that 250,000 people go missing in the UK each year. A lot, if not all, of those are mysteries. Rory Johnson is not a pretty young girl and I have seen considerably less media attention paid to his mysterious disappearance.

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/c...son-hatfield-disappearance-everything-1368514
 

escargot

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the Home Office estimates that 250,000 people go missing in the UK each year.
True, but this figure refers to the number of reports of missing people, which does not correlate directly with how many people are actually missing or how many don't come back. There aren't 250,000 individuals being abducted and disappearing every year.

- Some people are repeatedly reported missing, as when teenagers in care keep absconding. Each event has to be reported to the police even if staff know where the teenager has probably gone or that they are normally soon back.
- Many people who are reported missing come home safely, e.g. when they've walked out after a family row.
- Some are reported missing in error. They forget to tell someone they're going away for work or whatever.
- Estranged parents sometimes report their children missing if the other parent doesn't bring them back on time.
- Some children are taken away, occasionally abroad, by one parent against wishes of the other, who then might report them missing as they have been removed from legal parental custody.

These people might be perfectly safe at the time they are reported missing and return home. Only a small number don't come back. Of those, some might have decided to start a new life. (Those people can send a message home via several organisations like the Salvation Army.)
 

Mikefule

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True, but this figure refers to the number of reports of missing people, which does not correlate directly with how many people are actually missing or how many don't come back. There aren't 250,000 individuals being abducted and disappearing every year.

- Some people are repeatedly reported missing, as when teenagers in care keep absconding. Each event has to be reported to the police even if staff know where the teenager has probably gone or that they are normally soon back.
- Many people who are reported missing come home safely, e.g. when they've walked out after a family row.
- Some are reported missing in error. They forget to tell someone they're going away for work or whatever.
- Estranged parents sometimes report their children missing if the other parent doesn't bring them back on time.
- Some children are taken away, occasionally abroad, by one parent against wishes of the other, who then might report them missing as they have been removed from legal parental custody.

These people might be perfectly safe at the time they are reported missing and return home. Only a small number don't come back. Of those, some might have decided to start a new life. (Those people can send a message home via several organisations like the Salvation Army.)
All very good points. I looked up some figures on missingpeople.org.uk which reference a 2004 report (crikey, it sounds recent until I remember it's 2019 already!) and they say that 99% (apparently given as a statistic rather than figuratively) of missing persons reports are "solved within a year". The number of reports is not equal to the number of missing people as some are not reported, and some go missing more than once, but on raw figures, 1% of around 250,000 people is around 2,500 not resolved in a year.

Using the Von Daniken technique, I can now exclude whatever percentage of those I choose on whatever seemingly reasonable pretexts I choose as long as I leave some over... and then use those some I've left over to "prove" that the actual number may be higher. <wink>. That said, the point is that there are plenty that don't become causes célèbres.

Clearly, the McCanns have worked hard to keep Madeleine's case in the spotlight, as I would if my child were missing. I suspect that the massive public interest is partly fuelled by Madeleine's appearance, and partly by a distaste for the way that the parents have sometimes come across in interviews. There is no manual on how to behave if your child goes missing, but a lot of people need little encouragement to point the finger. No doubt if the McCanns had wept and wailed rather than controlling their emotions, the same people would have criticised them for "over acting" or similar.

I must admit that I was sceptical at first, and far from surprised when they were named as suspects, but the longer it goes on, and the more investigations that draw a blank (police, private investigators, and journalists) the more I feel that they are innocent.
 

escargot

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Someone sent me a photo of the McCanns' own book about the disappearance. It's on sale with a sticker saying 'When it's gone, it's gone!'


Dunno if it's genuine, could be 'shopped, but even if it's 100% genuine I'm not stupid enough to post in on'ere! :shifty:
 

Ermintruder

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Dunno if it's genuine, could be 'shopped, but even if it's 100% genuine I'm not stupid enough to post in on'ere!
If there's a squeamishness about not posting the alleged image here, I'll follow suit on that observance, and maintain such a exception:

https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/20/some...unt-sticker-on-madeleine-mccann-book-6650357/

(Hmm....still not 100% convinced about the physical veracity of that sticker. Not just because of the terminology upon it "When it's gone, it's gone.....What will you discover?") but also the ELA. Seems a bit pixel-hot around the sticker.

But I've got to bear in mind: a digitally-enhanced picture is not necessarily a fabrication....it may just be an enhancement.
 
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Yithian

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There's no prohibition, but what's the point?

It's either an unfortunate mistake or a mean joke, neither of which advances the discussion.
 

henry

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I suspect that the massive public interest is partly fuelled by Madeleine's appearance, and partly by a distaste for the way that the parents have sometimes come across in interviews. There is no manual on how to behave if your child goes missing, but a lot of people need little encouragement to point the finger. No doubt if the McCanns had wept and wailed rather than controlling their emotions, the same people would have criticised them for "over acting" or similar.
actually there is a manual

i think the trajectory of this case has also closely followed the rise of smart phone technology/immersive social media/youtube=news and a general dumbing-down accompanied by the ever ascendant rise of celebrity culture, turning the parents into figures of celebrity with all the vagaries that brings, and theyve had to respond on that level ... eg a prior comment on here to the effect : "imagine being them, everyone you meet already has an opinion about you"
 

maximus otter

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...the Home Office estimates that 250,000 people go missing in the UK each year. A lot, if not all, of those are mysteries.
I filled out an estimated three figure number of MFH reports during my career. Not once did the person fail to turn up.

The Home Office figures are skewed by the “frequent fliers”. We had a children’s home on my patch. It would be unremarkable for any of the girls there to go “Missing From Home” three times during one night shift.

Due to the insane rules, staff weren’t allowed to lock the kids in their room or even in the house, and they were forbidden from restraining the kids in any way.

It reached the stage where we left blank forms at the home. When one of the future parents and voters did a runner, staff would complete the form and fax it to the nick. As the little Richard the Thirds were automatically rated “High Risk”, your tax pounds would start being fire hosed away as bobbies went from address to address making themselves popular at 0300hrs...

maximus otter
 

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the longer it goes on, and the more investigations that draw a blank (police, private investigators, and journalists) the more I feel that they are innocent.
I take the opposite view - the more dead ends there are, the more the possibilities are eliminated, the more I suspect. Having said that, it must be utterly horrendous to have the finger pointed at you if you are innocent.
 

PeteS

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I filled out an estimated three figure number of MFH reports during my career. Not once did the person fail to turn up.

The Home Office figures are skewed by the “frequent fliers”. We had a children’s home on my patch. It would be unremarkable for any of the girls there to go “Missing From Home” three times during one night shift.

Due to the insane rules, staff weren’t allowed to lock the kids in their room or even in the house, and they were forbidden from restraining the kids in any way.

It reached the stage where we left blank forms at the home. When one of the future parents and voters did a runner, staff would complete the form and fax it to the nick. As the little Richard the Thirds were automatically rated “High Risk”, your tax pounds would start being fire hosed away as bobbies went from address to address making themselves popular at 0300hrs...

maximus otter
Yep - I know someone who was reported missing from a home over 50 times apparently. Skewed indeed.
 

escargot

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Yep - I know someone who was reported missing from a home over 50 times apparently. Skewed indeed.
When I worked in kids' homes with difficult teenagers we'd always be faxing missing persons notices to the police. As soon as we were sure a kid was off the premises without permission we were duty-bound to notify. So as you say, someone could be reported many times when nothing dramatic had happened.
 

escargot

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There's no prohibition, but what's the point?

It's either an unfortunate mistake or a mean joke, neither of which advances the discussion.
Here in the UK people can go to prison for making tasteless jokes on social media about murder victims.

April Jones murder: teenager jailed over offensive Facebook posts

Matthew Woods, 19, imprisoned for three months over 'abhorrent' comments about April Jones and Madeleine McCann
Woods had posted the comments on his own Facebook page. The jokes were available elsewhere on the 'net so it wasn't anything new.

In the light of this, the person who showed me the book cover did it through a personal message and neither of us has posted it anywhere. Not taking any chances!
 

AlchoPwn

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I filled out an estimated three figure number of MFH reports during my career. Not once did the person fail to turn up.
That sounds like the good news...

The Home Office figures are skewed by the “frequent fliers”. We had a children’s home on my patch. It would be unremarkable for any of the girls there to go “Missing From Home” three times during one night shift.
I like the terminology. Still this is the bad news right?

Due to the insane rules, staff weren’t allowed to lock the kids in their room or even in the house, and they were forbidden from restraining the kids in any way.
Did nobody seriously consider a work-around for childrens' homes where this is an issue? You would think that bureaucrats might have seen the merit of a separate document for "frequent fliers" that put them on a register, and took them off once they reached their majority? I can see some merit in not restraining them, I mean, many childrens' homes have been havens for pedophiles after all, plus, unless the kids are actually out doing crimes, they aren't actually criminals and shouldn't be detained. Of course that doesn't make a bobby's job any easier as you point out, and law enforcement end up carrying the can for Child Services, which is a waste of everybody's time and resources. I am interested to hear how you would have done a work-around the issue M.O.?

It reached the stage where we left blank forms at the home. When one of the future parents and voters did a runner, staff would complete the form and fax it to the nick. As the little Richard the Thirds were automatically rated “High Risk”, your tax pounds would start being fire hosed away as bobbies went from address to address making themselves popular at 0300hrs...
It sounds like frequent fliers went straight to the bottom of the to-do pile, amirite?
 

AlchoPwn

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Here in the UK people can go to prison for making tasteless jokes on social media about murder victims. April Jones murder: teenager jailed over offensive Facebook posts Woods had posted the comments on his own Facebook page. The jokes were available elsewhere on the 'net so it wasn't anything new. In the light of this, the person who showed me the book cover did it through a personal message and neither of us has posted it anywhere. Not taking any chances!
FFS! This sort of thought policing has to be put a stop to. A bad joke, even the most disgusting, most insulting and most tasteless, is at the very worst, only worth a reprimand, unless there is an implied threat of violence against the recipient in it. What happened to freedom of speech?
 
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