The Madeleine McCann Disappearance

Ghost In The Machine

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They and the other parents in the group always did it on holidays. I believe this was usually the case in hotels though rather than on open sites where they weren't in the same building.
Which is odd for a bunch of doctors. Some of em if not all must have been students or junior housemen in A & E and seen all the accidents kids get into even when you turn away for a few seconds, a minute or two. I always thought wouldn't this lot be the very last bunch of people on earth to leave children alone, at all? And this sounds like hindsight but as a parent of kids the same age as well as older, it occurred to me at the time. In fact, I remember the howls of outrage from some people when I dared to say it out loud.
 

pandacracker

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Richard Hall does a forensic analysis of the McCann's (and their friends) use/non use of the child care facilities. IIRC they had been using them but decided not to for that night, raising yet more questions.
 

escargot

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Richard Hall does a forensic analysis of the McCann's (and their friends) use/non use of the child care facilities. IIRC they had been using them but decided not to for that night, raising yet more questions.
The children of the group were put in a daytime creche each morning and afternoon. All the couples except one left them alone in the evenings.
The exception are the couple who brought a grandparent along to babysit so theirs were never left unattended.
 

maximus otter

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Madelaine is far too young for the typical paedophile predator. And there were two even younger children in the room, who would have mattered more to the sort of demon that abuses infants.

I would take issue with that:

"Approximately 20% of the victims of sexual abuse are under age eight."

I am aware of cases where babies have been sexually molested.

Also, I don't believe that a sexual predator goes into an offence with any tight age template in mind; he'll take what's available.

I still believe, however, that Madeleine died in the apartment, with no outside involvement.

maximus otter
 

Coastaljames

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Madelaine is far too young for the typical paedophile predator.

Sadly not true. To out it crassly - everyone has their own tastes and they are varied.

I am aware of cases where babies have been sexually molested.

Yes. Same. And much worse. I would not put on a public forum some of the crimes commited by people I work with.
 

Cochise

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I would take issue with that:

"Approximately 20% of the victims of sexual abuse are under age eight."

I am aware of cases where babies have been sexually molested.

Also, I don't believe that a sexual predator goes into an offence with any tight age template in mind; he'll take what's available.

I still believe, however, that Madeleine died in the apartment, with no outside involvement.

maximus otter
I do recall a case - in the 50's I think - where an infant was abducted from hospital, abused and killed. A crime totally beyond redemption.

I'm no psychologist, but I'd have thought that was a different perversion to a true paedophile - and anyway even paedophiles have varying age ranges - some lose all interest in their victims as soon as they show any sign of puberty.

But I wasn't just suggesting the child's age was the issue, but the age and the style of alleged abduction combined. You have a point, though - and of course the phantom abductor may have thought the child was older than she was.

I don't know how she died, but I don't think she was abducted - which is just an opinion.
 

Coastaljames

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I'm no psychologist, but I'd have thought that was a different perversion to a true paedophile

Legally, in this country - a paedophile is someone that has sex with children. Which is anyone between the age of 0 and 18.
 

Cochise

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Additional to the above - don't want to keep editing. Trying to clarify my objection to the abduction theory, purely on analytical grounds.

Most abuse is of course committed by family members or people known to the abused child.

Strangers looking to abduct a child usually look for a victim away from their parents, breaking in to abduct a child is therefore more unusual still. Indeed, very rare.

How would an stranger abductor silence a 4 year old in this scenario? Remember a) he presumably wants her intact and b) we are told she was already frightened from the previous day. Wouldn't she at least cry and attract attention? (unless already drugged?)

I could go on. There are so many things about the abduction explanation for me that it simply doesn't seem even remotely likely - of course the extremely unusual can happen, but...
 

Cochise

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Legally, in this country - a paedophile is someone that has sex with children. Which is anyone between the age of 0 and 18.
Understood, but I thought I made it clear I was talking about motivation, not the law. I don't think a paedophile starts out with the idea 'ooh, to qualify as a nonce I can rape anyone between 0 and 18'.

Nor do I think a 20 year old who targets 15 year olds is the same type of psychology as a 35 year old that abducts a 10 year old in a white van. They may or may not be equally bad but they are mentally different.
 

Coastaljames

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Strangers looking to abduct a child usually look for a victim away from their parents, breaking in to abduct a child is therefore more unusual still. Indeed, very rare.

Absolutely, yes.

How would an stranger abductor silence a 4 year old in this scenario? Remember a) he presumably wants her intact and b) we are told she was already frightened from the previous day. Wouldn't she at least cry and attract attention? (unless already drugged?)

Perfectly achievable if you are quick and determined. More "risky" abductions have been made relatively easily.
 

Coastaljames

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Understood, but I thought I made it clear I was talking about motivation, not the law. I don't think a paedophile starts out with the idea 'ooh, to qualify as a nonce I can rape anyone between 0 and 18'.

Nor do I think a 20 year old who fancies 15 year olds is the same type of psychology as a 35 year old that abducts a 10 year old in a white van.

I think these sort of offenders might suprise you mate. People don't so easily fit into boxes. People can be opprtunistic, taking what they want. People can start somewhere and end somewhere else. People can "pick and mix". Some people do these things and can't stop. Others do them once and then never again, never get caught...you might work with some of them, they might be family members. But one thing I've learnt - people and their tastes, and their proclivites never fit easily into boxes.
 

Cochise

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I think these sort of offenders might suprise you mate. People don't so easily fit into boxes. People can be opprtunistic, taking what they want. People can start somewhere and end somewhere else. People can "pick and mix". Some people do these things and can't stop. Others do them once and then never again, never get caught...you might work with some of them, they might be family members. But one thing I've learnt - people and their tastes, and their proclivites never fit easily into boxes.
I do tend to put things into boxes mentally yes. Comes from my career. Pity I'm not better at it round the house :)

But I've been an amateur student of true crime for 40-odd years as well, and most criminals do have a pattern of behaviour - if they didn't (pre DNA, anyway) they'd very rarely have been caught. I'm not saying every crime must have a precedent or every criminal must behave consistently, but that most crimes have and most criminals do.

Again, I'm talking about this 'crime' and the proposed abduction theory so particular circumstances apply. Either we have a reasonably professional serial abductor of an unusual type (most snatches are on the street) a lucky one-off chancer (very rare, and what happened afterwards?), or there wasn't an abduction, merely an accident of one of several possible types.

I'm suggesting that statistically the latter is far the most likely and there is no conclusive evidence to the contrary.

edit - another possibility - fairly horrible - just popped into my head which is that the poor child was killed - not died by accident - in the room and the perpetrator successfully disposed of the body. I'm done thinking about this for one day - need brain bleach.
 
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Coastaljames

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But I've been an amateur student of true crime for 40-odd years as well, and most criminals do have a pattern of behaviour

The ones you hear about yeah. Bear in mind the amount that make it into the annals of true crime is a very, very limited sample. But yes - some criminals, like anyone else, have patterns of behaviour when it comes to part of their lives. And then some just don't. Everyone's acts are a result of an almost infinite amount of possibilities, opportunies, stimuli and atttitudes. All dynamic and changinf from second to second.
 

escargot

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Also cf. the case of Shannon Matthews in 2008 which was cleared up in just over 3 weeks - the search for her up until that point cost £3.2 million notwithstanding the costs of prison and probation for the offenders, and care proceedings.

Wee girl was as about far away from Madeleine McCann on the social scale as she could be.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/nov/12/shannonmatthews-biggest-search
There's a brilliant two-part TV drama called The Moorside about it. It shows how the local community rallied in support of the family and organised their own search parties. They were not amused when Shannon's 'kidnapping' was found to have been a money-raising fraud.
 

Ghost In The Machine

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I would take issue with that:

"Approximately 20% of the victims of sexual abuse are under age eight."

I am aware of cases where babies have been sexually molested.

Also, I don't believe that a sexual predator goes into an offence with any tight age template in mind; he'll take what's available.

I still believe, however, that Madeleine died in the apartment, with no outside involvement.

maximus otter
What's your opinion re. the sniffer dogs? (And the subsequent discrediting of them)?
 

Nosmo King

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I remember some talk early on, that Madeline was a difficult child since the birth of the twins, and that her doctor parents had previously sedated her, in order to get her to sleep, it was suggested that they may have accidentily overdosed her and she died, it was then a case of disposing of the poor girls body, lots of sea around full of sharks (a major area for Great White spotting) off of Portugal.
But like with a lot of things, these were rumours.
 

escargot

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Sniffer dogs -
Someone posted a link to his article today about the search for Shannon Matthews.
Shannon Matthews hunt cost police £3.2m

Here's the relevant bit -

Prosecutor Julian Goose QC told the court today that the 24-day hunt cost almost £3.2 million and involved three quarters of all the UK's specially-trained police dogs.

Did the dogs find her, a mere mile away from her home, in the dwelling of a relation of her mother's boyfriend?
Nope, she was discovered after a tip-off from a suspicious member of the public.
 

Cochise

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Sniffer dogs -
Someone posted a link to his article today about the search for Shannon Matthews.
Shannon Matthews hunt cost police £3.2m

Here's the relevant bit -



Did the dogs find her, a mere mile away from her home, in the dwelling of a relation of her mother's boyfriend?
Nope, she was discovered after a tip-off from a suspicious member of the public.
Would that be because cadaver dogs and tracker dogs have different training? I don't know, but it would seem likely.
 

Nosmo King

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Would that be because cadaver dogs and tracker dogs have different training? I don't know, but it would seem likely.
Im pretty sure sniffer dogs (not drug/explosive/money dogs) are trained to follow a scent, usually taken from a personal item, a shoe or piece of clothing worn recently, where as cadaver dogs are specifically trained to sniff out decomposition traces.
 

escargot

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Would that be because cadaver dogs and tracker dogs have different training? I don't know, but it would seem likely.
One assumes three quarters of all the UK's specially-trained police dogs would include a selection of whatever type was available, probably apart from the explosive detection ones.
 

Sollywos

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Can anyone remember if the McCanns ever publicly expressed any kind of remorse for having left the children on their own? I can't recall their doing so but I could have missed it. All I do remember was feeling that something didn't seem right about them whenever they were shown on the TV. At the time I put it down to the fact that we all have different reactions to trauma none of us can actually predict how we would take such events.

When I discovered my baby dead in his cot I screamed and ran out into the street it was all so overwhelming and I never stopped blaming myself ... if only I'd checked earlier and not finished putting in that catalogue order for clothes for my other two son's. It was all I could think of, that it was my fault, the baby was in my care and I'd failed him. Maybe it was not getting any sense of that sort of thing coming from the McCanns that made me feel a bit uncomfortable about them? But as I said I could have missed the interview when they were reacting in that way so maybe I shouldn't draw conclusions.

At the time I went through feeling deep compassion for them which gradually morphed into anger when I realised they'd left Madeleine on her own with her two younger siblings. That is such a big fat hairy no no! What the actual fcuk? In this country it would be illegal to leave children of that age on their own AFAIK. I imagine it's not the done thing in Portugal either. (Other than by Brits on holiday)

Outwardly I was still going with the compassion after all I felt sure the feelings of guilt would come and how combined with the sorrow it would be unbearable. I was tryiing so hard to be empathetic and not judgemental. Then one day I ventured to say to a collegue that I was actually feeling very angry with them, only to discover that nearly all my collegues were feeling the same way for the same reasons but all of us falling short on actually blaming the parents as such. Just a kind of mmmm

So over the years I've tried to put my own feelings aside ... however there has always been that lingering feeling of doubt about their story. The sedation theory certainly seems plausible and for the little girls sake a gentle drifting off into 'that goodnight' is far easier to deal with than the thought of her meeting a more violent end. So perhaps that's why I'm going with it?

Sollywos x
 

AnonyJ

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Can anyone remember if the McCanns ever publicly expressed any kind of remorse for having left the children on their own? I can't recall their doing so but I could have missed it. All I do remember was feeling that something didn't seem right about them whenever they were shown on the TV. At the time I put it down to the fact that we all have different reactions to trauma none of us can actually predict how we would take such events.

When I discovered my baby dead in his cot I screamed and ran out into the street it was all so overwhelming and I never stopped blaming myself ... if only I'd checked earlier and not finished putting in that catalogue order for clothes for my other two son's. It was all I could think of, that it was my fault, the baby was in my care and I'd failed him. Maybe it was not getting any sense of that sort of thing coming from the McCanns that made me feel a bit uncomfortable about them? But as I said I could have missed the interview when they were reacting in that way so maybe I shouldn't draw conclusions.

At the time I went through feeling deep compassion for them which gradually morphed into anger when I realised they'd left Madeleine on her own with her two younger siblings. That is such a big fat hairy no no! What the actual fcuk? In this country it would be illegal to leave children of that age on their own AFAIK. I imagine it's not the done thing in Portugal either. (Other than by Brits on holiday)

Outwardly I was still going with the compassion after all I felt sure the feelings of guilt would come and how combined with the sorrow it would be unbearable. I was tryiing so hard to be empathetic and not judgemental. Then one day I ventured to say to a collegue that I was actually feeling very angry with them, only to discover that nearly all my collegues were feeling the same way for the same reasons but all of us falling short on actually blaming the parents as such. Just a kind of mmmm

So over the years I've tried to put my own feelings aside ... however there has always been that lingering feeling of doubt about their story. The sedation theory certainly seems plausible and for the little girls sake a gentle drifting off into 'that goodnight' is far easier to deal with than the thought of her meeting a more violent end. So perhaps that's why I'm going with it?

Sollywos x
I 'liked' your post not for 'social media liking' purposes but to acknowledge the awful experience of losing a child you have had. J xxxxxx
 

CALGACUS03

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Um, I don't want to be Chicken Little here, but the McCann's have proven to be litigious in the past about perceived slights upon themselves regarding the events surrounding their daughters disappearence. Also, certainly, regarding any possible involvencement that they might have had in the events of that night.

Is it safe for us to discuss things like this:

her doctor parents had previously sedated her, in order to get her to sleep, it was suggested that they may have accidentily overdosed her and she died

This isn't aimed at Souleater in particular (a poster I particulary admire) - but just a general request for guidence from our esteemed Mods. ;)

I'd like to comment on this thread and don't want to overstep any boundaries.

ETA: I can't spell "esteemed" aparently

ETA: I can't spell "apparently" apparently :psych:
 
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EnolaGaia

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Um, I don't want to be Chicken Little here, but the McCann's have proven to be litigious in the past about perceived slights upon themselves regarding the events surrounding their daughters disappearence. Also, certainly, regarding any possible involvencement that they might have had in the events of that night.
Is it safe for us to discuss things like this ...

This isn't aimed at Souleater in particular (a poster I particulary admire) - but just a general request for guidence from our esteemed Mods. ;)
I'd like to comment on this thread and don't want to overstep any boundaries.
In general ...

Our Terms and Conditions specifically disclaim any responsibility for whatever it is our members post on the forum, and we specifically assign said responsibility to the poster(s) who enter things onto our forum.

In other words - you're on your own in the event someone comes threatening or pursuing legal action.

Period / full stop.

More specifically ...

We do reserve the privilege of enforcement over postings that violate the T&C prohibitions regarding content (e.g., content judged to be defamatory). The enforced border line is fuzzy, and actions are evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

It is wise to cite sources and / or examples in alluding to claims, spins and / or insinuations associated with any incident being discussed.
 

Ghost In The Machine

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Im pretty sure sniffer dogs (not drug/explosive/money dogs) are trained to follow a scent, usually taken from a personal item, a shoe or piece of clothing worn recently, where as cadaver dogs are specifically trained to sniff out decomposition traces.
Yes,, I may be wrong but I think in Portugal it was a blood dog and a cadaver dog? Trained to alert to different things, anyway. Whereas I'm guessing with Shannon Matthews her trail would have been pretty well impossible, as she was "abducted" after leaving school, not from the house..? If they were cadaver dogs, there was no cadaver to find. So of course they'd "fail".
 
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