The Madeleine McCann Disappearance

catseye

Old lady trouser-smell with yesterday's knickers
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
5,442
Location
York
I think the fact is that NONE of us know how we would react in this circumstance. Hopefully none of us will ever find out.

Some people instantly go into a state of practicality, others become so emotional they can't stand up. There are mothers of missing children who immediately organise searches, make TV announcements etc, and only become really emotional in private. Then there are those who are such a weeping mass of inability to function that they don't come out of doors.

Nobody should be berated for 'not behaving as expected' when something bad happens. There should be no expectations on behaviour here.

I think the McCanns probably felt (and still feel) an enormous amount of guilt for leaving the children unattended. It's probably sufficient to make them defensive, which people perceive as an admission of involvement in her disappearance.
 

Tunn11

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
941
Location
Under the highest tree top in Kent
I think the fact is that NONE of us know how we would react in this circumstance. Hopefully none of us will ever find out.

Some people instantly go into a state of practicality, others become so emotional they can't stand up. There are mothers of missing children who immediately organise searches, make TV announcements etc, and only become really emotional in private. Then there are those who are such a weeping mass of inability to function that they don't come out of doors.

Nobody should be berated for 'not behaving as expected' when something bad happens. There should be no expectations on behaviour here.

I think the McCanns probably felt (and still feel) an enormous amount of guilt for leaving the children unattended. It's probably sufficient to make them defensive, which people perceive as an admission of involvement in her disappearance.
Agreed, but I still find it odd that they seem to both react in the same way.

It is depressing that in any missing person case there has to come a time when searches are scaled down or abandoned and that must be awful for their loved ones. The McCanns say they are trying to keep the case open which is understandable but again IMO they have done it the wrong way. The focus should have been on finding Maddie and they should have accepted some responsibility and have been prepared to have been investigated in the same way that I imagine most parents are if their children go missing, suffer a lot of injuries, etc.
 

queenofwands

Junior Acolyte
Joined
Jan 24, 2022
Messages
88
I think the fact is that NONE of us know how we would react in this circumstance. Hopefully none of us will ever find out.

Some people instantly go into a state of practicality, others become so emotional they can't stand up. There are mothers of missing children who immediately organise searches, make TV announcements etc, and only become really emotional in private. Then there are those who are such a weeping mass of inability to function that they don't come out of doors.

Nobody should be berated for 'not behaving as expected' when something bad happens. There should be no expectations on behaviour here.

I think the McCanns probably felt (and still feel) an enormous amount of guilt for leaving the children unattended. It's probably sufficient to make them defensive, which people perceive as an admission of involvement in her disappearance.
I agree that everyone reacts differently, in situations , such as these . However , Kate sat on the bed , doing nothing ,while others searched for Maddy. That is a very unusual response , when your child has gone missing from the surrounding area. Most mothers would be tearing the sand off the beach, with their bare hands , in such a situation.
I also think it odd that she refused to answer the questions asked of her by the portugese police. Most people would want to give the police as much information as they could . Anything at all , that might provide a clue that could help locate her and provide a clue to the alleged abductor.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Spookdaddy

Cuckoo
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
7,168
Location
Midwich
...I also think it odd that she refused to answer the questions asked of her by the portugese police. Most people would want to give the police as much information as they could . Anything at all , that might provide a clue that could help locate her and provide a clue to the alleged abductor...

Was this in the very first instance - that is, immediately after Madeleine was reported missing in May - or when the McCanns were subsequently questioned as formal suspects some weeks later? Some reports are muddy on the precise timing, but it's important because official UK advice is that a detainee should contact the local British consulate or embassy as soon as possible, and general legal advice in the UK suggests that this should be done immediately, and wherever possible, before answering any questions. At least part of this is to ensure the person being questioned has access to English speaking legal representation and/or accredited independent translator.

An old flatmate of mine was arrested in Italy back in the 90's - he was told by the local consulate not to talk to the Italian police under any circumstances until he could be provided with the services of an accredited translator. Even where detainee and questioner have some knowledge of the respective languages involved, the potential for misunderstanding and misinterpretation - and sometimes deliberate manipulation - is very considerable.
 

catseye

Old lady trouser-smell with yesterday's knickers
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
5,442
Location
York
All I know is, that if one of my children had gone missing and my own neglect had led to it happening, I would be so paralysed by the guilt and the 'what might be' and the possibilities and probablities that I doubt I'd be able to speak coherently to anyone, let alone people whose English might not be great.

But, again. NOBODY knows how they would react. Being able to say 'I would do this' or 'I wouldn't have reacted like that' doesn't really mean much. It's all so personal. I have ADD, so I would probably be pacing the route between the table and the room over and over. It would be no help to anyone, but my brain would be trying to recapture that night.
 

queenofwands

Junior Acolyte
Joined
Jan 24, 2022
Messages
88
All I know is, that if one of my children had gone missing and my own neglect had led to it happening, I would be so paralysed by the guilt and the 'what might be' and the possibilities and probablities that I doubt I'd be able to speak coherently to anyone, let alone people whose English might not be great.

But, again. NOBODY knows how they would react. Being able to say 'I would do this' or 'I wouldn't have reacted like that' doesn't really mean much. It's all so personal. I have ADD, so I would probably be pacing the route between the table and the room over and over. It would be no help to anyone, but my brain would be trying to recapture that night.
When you really examine the facts of this case , not just what was reported by the mainstream media, nothing that was stated in the official story adds up. If you take the trouble to watch the series of documentaries by Richard D hall , A very different picture emerges , of what happened the night she went missing .

As for being questioned by the portugese police , who ,as part of their job ,have to consider all possibilities , if Kate was telling the truth about the events of that night, what is the problem with answering the questions?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

queenofwands

Junior Acolyte
Joined
Jan 24, 2022
Messages
88
Richard D Hall made a series of extremely informative and enlightening documentaries about the case . They are worth a watch for anyone interested in the case. They are very well researched .


part 2 of the documentary , here


part 3


part 4


part 5


part 6

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Spookdaddy

Cuckoo
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
7,168
Location
Midwich
if yo watch the series of videos , and perhaps some research of your own , it becomes obvious that the abduction story is a complete fabrication.

By research - do you mean looking at the internet, at videos that someone else has constructed by, well, looking at the internet?

Seems to me that far from being an alternative to it, a lot of Richard Hall's stuff uses mainstream media as a direct source, but with the addition of his own spin. It's also worth pointing out that certain areas of that mainstream media have been as active as anyone in casting aspersions at the McCanns - and the alleged MSM/actual truth dichotomy isn't a particularly great fit (several UK newspapers have been forced to apologise to the McCanns - and they successfully sued the Sunday Times, which would have been a little unnecessary if they were all in cahoots).

I'm wouldn't deny Hall's tenacity, but a lot of what's contained in those videos is now old hat, and has been discussed many, many times on this thread already. (To be honest, he lost me completely with the bloody dogs - if their evidence really is 'the main line of forensic evidence in this case' as Hall states, then it's a totally lost cause.)

Yes, there are anomalies. Yes, there are contradictions. As there will be in the minute examination of any case. And maybe, just maybe the McCanns do have a bigger hand in this than they or their supporters claim. But I don't know what happened, neither does anybody else here - and staring at the internet for hours on end won't help, because neither do people like Hall.
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
54,458
Location
Eblana
Yes, there are anomalies. Yes, there are contradictions. As there will be in the minute examination of any case. And maybe, just maybe the McCanns do have a bigger hand in this than they or their supporters claim. But I don't know what happened, neither does anybody else here - and staring at the internet for hours on end won't help, because neither do people like Hall.

We do know that the McCanns went on the piss and left their kids unattended. They could have had a babysitter at the apartment complex but chose not to.
 

Spookdaddy

Cuckoo
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
7,168
Location
Midwich
We do know that the McCanns went on the piss and left their kids unattended. They could have had a babysitter at the apartment complex but chose not to.

Yes we do. In fact, we know an awful lot of detail. But when I say I don't know what happened, and neither does anyone else here, I'm talking about the overall event, not particular aspects of it.
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
54,458
Location
Eblana
Yes we do. In fact, we know an awful lot of detail. But when I say I don't know what happened, and neither does anyone else here, I'm talking about the overall event, not particular aspects of it.

Given that sociopathic behaviour plus an unwillingness to answer questions from the police that might have helped in the search for Madeline It should hardly be surprising that some of us have queries about how involved the McCanns were in Madeline's disappearance.
 

Spookdaddy

Cuckoo
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
7,168
Location
Midwich
Given that sociopathic behaviour plus an unwillingness to answer questions from the police that might have helped in the search for Madeline It should hardly be surprising that some of us have queries about how involved the McCanns were in Madeline's disappearance.

I really don't have a problem with people having queries about the McCanns behaviour - I have my own, as I've stated many times before. I'm neither for nor against and am somewhat bemused by some people's apparent belief that you have to be one or the other - I don't believe that this is some sort of football match, where you have to show unqualified support for a particular team. I'm in two minds, but I temper any ambivalence with that tiresome old presumption of innocence business.
 

Endlessly Amazed

Endlessly, you know, amazed
Joined
Aug 6, 2020
Messages
956
Location
Arizona, USA
if yo watch the series of videos , and perhaps some research of your own , it becomes obvious that the abduction story is a complete fabrication.
Well, it became obvious to you; I disagree that if someone watches the videos and does some research, that person will reach the same conclusions as you have.

Given that sociopathic behaviour plus an unwillingness to answer questions from the police that might have helped in the search for Madeline It should hardly be surprising that some of us have queries about how involved the McCanns were in Madeline's disappearance.

? What sociopathic behavior? By whom?
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
54,458
Location
Eblana
I really don't have a problem with people having queries about the McCanns behaviour - I have my own, as I've stated many times before. I'm neither for nor against and am somewhat bemused by some people's apparent belief that you have to be one or the other - I don't believe that this is some sort of football match, where you have to show unqualified support for a particular team. I'm in two minds, but I temper any ambivalence with that tiresome old presumption of innocence business.

Obviously I agree that the McCanns are innocent In The Eyes Of The Law. But they're not before any criminal court.

They're far more than innocent in The Eyes Of The Law though.

When a new team of detectives are assigned to investigate a case they are supposed to cast fresh eyes over any clues, potential suspects or evidence/leads. However none of these teams of British detectives have ever treated the McCanns as suspects or even interviewed them under caution.

Maybe every DCI assigned to the case automatically knows that the McCanns are innocent, no need to treat them as suspects. Hardly the usual approach though.

Or maybe they are told not to treat the McCanns as suspects?
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
54,458
Location
Eblana
Well, it became obvious to you; I disagree that if someone watches the videos and does some research, that person will reach the same conclusions as you have.



? What sociopathic behavior? By whom?

Leaving children unattended in an apartment in a foreign country while you go on the piss is sociopathic behaviour imho.
 

queenofwands

Junior Acolyte
Joined
Jan 24, 2022
Messages
88
Well, it became obvious to you; I disagree that if someone watches the videos and does some research, that person will reach the same conclusions as you have.



? What sociopathic behavior? By whom?
Well, all I can add , is that unless you take the time out to look at the evidence that researchers have taken the time out to discover , and perhaps , to look into the case , objectively , yourself , you will always remain blindsided by the mainstream media 's version of events, which , simply ,has no foundation , in fact. Your choice , to believe that version, of course . I just wanted to point out that there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions in the official version of events, one has to question why this is the case, There is stacks of evidence against the official story , if you can be bothered to look into it . Peace out
 

Earthly oddity

Ephemeral Spectre
Joined
Dec 19, 2021
Messages
315
If either one or both of the McCanns are involved in the disappearance in any way, without any physical evidence of what happened, it might only be discovered if someone involved provides evidence/information to the police/investigators of the likely whereabouts of the girl.

Presumably someone might only do this if there is a falling out or argument of some sort, a cooling of some sort of relationship that is keeping the secrets hidden and the case unsolvable.

Unless she is still alive.

If the child had wandered off and been involved in an accident, they might have turned up in a hospital (unless it was fatal/got covered up). The parents are still guilty of leaving 3 children unattended (every night of the holiday possibly) while they went out. It is not safe anywhere in the world to do that.

I really wonder how the other children's lives have been affected by it and how they feel. It is a really awful thing to grow up with.
 

queenofwands

Junior Acolyte
Joined
Jan 24, 2022
Messages
88
If either one or both of the McCanns are involved in the disappearance in any way, without any physical evidence of what happened, it might only be discovered if someone involved provides evidence/information to the police/investigators of the likely whereabouts of the girl.

Presumably someone might only do this if there is a falling out or argument of some sort, a cooling of some sort of relationship that is keeping the secrets hidden and the case unsolvable.

Unless she is still alive.

If the child had wandered off and been involved in an accident, they might have turned up in a hospital (unless it was fatal/got covered up). The parents are still guilty of leaving 3 children unattended (every night of the holiday possibly) while they went out. It is not safe anywhere in the world to do that.

I really wonder how the other children's lives have been affected by it and how they feel. It is a really awful thing to grow up with.
The portugese police , pretty early on in the investigation , discovered the truth . They concluded that Maddy died in the apartment , and the cadavar dogs also alerted to a body ,having being there. They were forced , by higher powers , to butt out and Amaral lost his job . GM is a high ranking mason , and his golfing buddy , Gordon Brown's brother , pulled strings to cover what really happened up. Brown , who was prime minister , at the time, even rang G and K , to offer his condolences. No prime minister called Kerry Needham , though , when little Ben went missing from Greece . Nor was a million pound find Ben fund set up for her , either. Go figure
 

Endlessly Amazed

Endlessly, you know, amazed
Joined
Aug 6, 2020
Messages
956
Location
Arizona, USA
Well, all I can add , is that unless you take the time out to look at the evidence that researchers have taken the time out to discover , and perhaps , to look into the case , objectively , yourself , you will always remain blindsided by the mainstream media 's version of events, which , simply ,has no foundation , in fact. Your choice , to believe that version, of course . I just wanted to point out that there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions in the official version of events, one has to question why this is the case, There is stacks of evidence against the official story , if you can be bothered to look into it . Peace out
Respectfully, I disagree. You assume that I accepted mainstream media versions and you assume that if I examined the same evidence that you did and did so objectively, I would reach the same or similar conclusions which you did.

I actually don't have enough interest in this case to review multiple hours of videos or read lots of written accounts.

I have some sense of empathy to everyone involved, including the "sociopathic" parents. For various reasons, several members here have written about the parents in highly judgmental ways, diagnosing basic personality disorders at third or fourth remove, describing meeting friends for dinner and drinks as going boozing or on the piss, interpreting larger sociological implications as the perennial favorite that rich people are given special treatment regarding resources assigned to the missing child (despite evidence to the contrary by, I believe, MO), etc.

It appears to me that this topic has provided a wonderful platform for virtue-signalling and airing increasingly entrenched opinions.
 

catseye

Old lady trouser-smell with yesterday's knickers
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
5,442
Location
York
It's possible that 2 doctors know the true story.
I know several doctors and think that they could come with a dozen better ways to explain away a child's death than having to go to the lengths here. Even a simple 'we left the top off the medicine bottle, she drank it all, nobody realised, and when we came back to check on her she was dead.'

Doctors would be absolutely the best placed people to cover up a death. But if it really was an accident, why would they need to? And I don't think anyone is saying that they could have killed her deliberately.
 

catseye

Old lady trouser-smell with yesterday's knickers
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
5,442
Location
York
I do have to say that I don't think they had any involvement in their daughter's death. But I'm just pointing out that, should they HAVE done something more suspicious than leave the children alone, there really wouldn't be all this need for investigation. They would have explained the death away.

So, curiously, the more involved they become in the investigation, the less guilty they look.

Well, to me anyway.
 

maximus otter

Recovering policeman
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
10,911
I know several doctors and think that they could come with a dozen better ways to explain away a child's death than having to go to the lengths here. Even a simple 'we left the top off the medicine bottle, she drank it all, nobody realised, and when we came back to check on her she was dead.'

In that single paragraph is the end of both of their medical careers:

a) Left their child unattended...

b) ...with an insecure, potentially-lethal medication

Both of their lucrative jobs gone; vilified; unable to find alternative work, other than the most menial after changing their names and moving house several times. (The OECD reported that, in 2007, doctors earned 4.2 times the UK's average wage.)

Or make up a plausible tale, and attain that most desirable status, that of victim.

maximus otter
 
Last edited:

Tunn11

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
941
Location
Under the highest tree top in Kent
I think most people will find it difficult to avoid prejudices in emotive cases like these. I haven’t studied the case in detail and I don’t know what happened. I also agree with @catseye that nobody can know how they would react in a similar situation.

What does bother me is:

They left the children alone, the twins younger than Maddie. They are both doctors surely they are aware of the risks in doing this.

There was an alternative to leaving them alone.

They’ve never AFAIK publicly shown any remorse for this.

They both react in the same way, in other interviews with parents there is usually some difference one being emotional while another stays calm etc. Back to @catseye’s point , but it looks odd.

They are very fond of litigation about any criticism. A personal prejudice of mine maybe but it always make me think that it is a resort of people with something to hide and who want to frighten off criticism.

Their point about the effects on parents when a search is called off or scaled down is a good one but couldn’t they have used the publicity they are generating for Maddie to also help others in a similar situation? Diana Lamplugh achieved this and it may have helped the McCanns both in how they are perceived by many people and also in keeping search efforts going.
 

catseye

Old lady trouser-smell with yesterday's knickers
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
5,442
Location
York
In that single paragraph is the end of both their medical careers:

a) Left their child unattended...

b) ...with an insecure, potentially-lethal medication

Both of their lucrative jobs gone; vilified; unable to find alternative work, other than the most menial after changing their names and moving house several times. (The OECD reported that, in 2007, doctors earned 4.2 times the UK's average wage.)

Or make up a plausible tale, and attain that most desirable status, that of victim.

maximus otter
But they could make up a plausible tale that didn't involve having to 'disappear' the body of a child so totally, without support, in a foreign country at very short notice. Even made the death look nothing to do with leaving the children unattended and had an 'accident' happen when they got back to the flat.

Occam's Razor and all that. If they killed her by accident, just change the timing of that accident. By morning, are too many questions going to be asked? Grieving parents with a dead child? And they are doctors, their word is likely to be taken without forensic raking through of the events.

I think they could have fudged things sufficiently to cover up an accidental death, is all.

But I still think the little girl woke up, let herself out and wandered off. Possibly went for a paddle alone somewhere (because children and water are inextricably attracted to one another) and drowned. Body could be caught in a cave somewhere along the coast. We may never know. My only qualifications for saying this are that I have a daughter who would have done exactly that at the same age. She used to let herself out of the house and wander down the road in the night looking for hedgehogs. She could, so easily, have met a dreadful fate, until we found out how she was getting out and secured the doors (which wasn't easy, she was quite capable of dragging chairs and unlocking high bolts and windows!).
 

maximus otter

Recovering policeman
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
10,911
But they could make up a plausible tale that didn't involve having to 'disappear' the body of a child so totally, without support, in a foreign country at very short notice. Even made the death look nothing to do with leaving the children unattended and had an 'accident' happen when they got back to the flat.

Occam's Razor and all that. If they killed her by accident, just change the timing of that accident. By morning, are too many questions going to be asked? Grieving parents with a dead child? And they are doctors, their word is likely to be taken without forensic raking through of the events.

I think they could have fudged things sufficiently to cover up an accidental death, is all.

But I still think the little girl woke up, let herself out and wandered off. Possibly went for a paddle alone somewhere (because children and water are inextricably attracted to one another) and drowned. Body could be caught in a cave somewhere along the coast. We may never know. My only qualifications for saying this are that I have a daughter who would have done exactly that at the same age. She used to let herself out of the house and wander down the road in the night looking for hedgehogs. She could, so easily, have met a dreadful fate, until we found out how she was getting out and secured the doors (which wasn't easy, she was quite capable of dragging chairs and unlocking high bolts and windows!).

This was all done on the spur of the moment. That they came up with "a lie that would fly" that fast is impressive.

There are so many components to their tale that just reek: Gerry coming back from the restaurant to check on the kids, and "sensing that someone was hiding behind the door" in the apartment, yet not even pulling the door open to check? Putting Maddie's favourite soft toy through the washing machine? Their rental car, seen with all the doors & windows open for several days? Those are just three off the top of my head.

maximus otter
 
Top