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The Madeleine McCann Disappearance

I'd have thought it was the reverse, that people love to read that dear Maddie is still being searched for. Like they like to hear about Diana still. Oh they still do. I noticed it on the front of the usual papers a couple of weeks ago. I agree that it sells copies. But not for the carping. That's just me, Henry. And a few other annoying people.
 
drbastard said:
Jim Gamble' s response is completely correct. She's just making waves to get attention, virtue signalling "working class lass done well" gobshite.
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This is what she says -


'I stand by my point-I don’t believe a working class family who left their kids home alone and went to pub, would have received all this time/money. In fact, I’d go further & say they’d prob be charged with neglect.'

Dunno who this lady is but she's right. I've always said that the McCanns & co were neglectful when they left their children alone every night while they went out socialising. If they'd been plumbers and cleaners instead of medical professionals they would have no tabloid sympathy.

I personally have no sympathy for them. As a young working class mother I stayed in with my children and their father and we watched TV and did jigsaws or gardening. They were our children and we acted responsibly towards them.
 
The McCanns rendered themselves unassailable by assembling a superb press machine: talking heads who couldn’t believe that “naice” people - doctors, FFS! - could have anything to do with their kid’s “disappearance”.

By the time doubts began to be raised, the McCann rebuttal/pre-emptive strike machine was fully bombed-up, cleaned and oiled, and woe betide anyone who dared to question their tale.

Neither Holly Wells nor Jessica Chapman’s parents were wealthy or of “high social class”, yet Cambridgeshire police nearly bankrupted themselves bringing Ian Huntly to justice.

maximus otter
 
maximus otter said:
...Neither Holly Wells nor Jessica Chapman’s parents were wealthy or of “high social class”, yet Cambridgeshire police nearly bankrupted themselves bringing Ian Huntly to justice.

maximus otter
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Yup. And Sarah Payne's working-class council house dwelling mother became an effective campaigner for parents and childrens rights, regularly appearing on TV and radio, and pushing for a change in the law. Her equally working class daughter has a law named after her. (Erroneously, I believe, as the current regs are not exactly what was campaigned for - nevertheless, the association is there.)

I don’t doubt that social background and the ability of parents to push their case forward can influence a case - but it's clearly not an overarching issue, not by any means.
 
Spookdaddy said:
Yup. And Sarah Payne's working-class council house dwelling mother became an effective campaigner for parents and childrens rights, regularly appearing on TV and radio, and pushing for a change in the law. Her equally working class daughter has a law named after her. (Erroneously, I believe, as the current regs are not exactly what was campaigned for - nevertheless, the association is there.)

I don’t doubt that social background and the ability of parents to push their case forward can influence a case - but it's clearly not an overarching issue, not by any means.
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The Paynes are a respectable family who didn't leave their children unsupervised while they socialised. They deserve every bit of support they received.

When Sara went missing she was walking across a field five minutes in front of the rest of the family. The abductor was so cunning and determined, a child would need to be kept under lock and key to be safe from him.

The difference is that the McCanns are not being castigated for repeatedly leaving little children alone,* whereas less posh parents would be.

*In an unlocked apartment in a foreign country while the adults went out eating and drinking with their friends, etc.
 
escargot said:
The Paynes are a respectable family who didn't leave their children unsupervised while they socialised. They deserve every bit of support they received.

When Sara went missing she was walking across a field five minutes in front of the rest of the family. The abductor was so cunning and determined, a child would need to be kept under lock and key to be safe from him.

The difference is that the McCanns are not being castigated for repeatedly leaving little children alone,* whereas less posh parents would be.

*In an unlocked apartment in a foreign country while the adults went out eating and drinking with their friends, etc.
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I've probably mentioned this before, but a friend used to visit this location with his family. It was common practice for parents to leave young children in their bedrooms in the evening having been assured that it was "safe " to do so. (I wouldn't have but that's just me maybe). The McCanns possibly thought that it was therefore ok to do so since everyone else did it. And yes there have been prosecutions for "home alone" situations in the McCanns home city.

One thing that always struck me was how a pair of doctors had the knowledge and ability to assemble "a pre emptive strike machine "(as MO puts it ) in such an apparently very short space of time. They obviously did so but part of their planning did not seem to include a way to come across well to the public.
 
PeteS said:
I wouldn't have but that's just me maybe.
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Good for you. I wouldn't have either, not in a million years.

Not because of a fear of abduction but because little kids can come to harm without malice from anyone. I've listed the foreseeable dangers at length and could probably come up with more.

You certainly don't leave kids and babies alone together. Asking for trouble.
 
escargot said:
Good for you. I wouldn't have either, not in a million years.

Not because of a fear of abduction but because little kids can come to harm without malice from anyone. I've listed the foreseeable dangers at length and could probably come up with more.

You certainly don't leave kids and babies alone together. Asking for trouble.
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I've seen enough 'kids with pets' situations to know it unwise to upgrade to babies.

"The dog sneezed, so we tried to give him medicine!" etc.
 
Shady said:
And the fact that they sedated them at times, is that bit true?
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They deny it but many believe they did, the logic being that there must have been some reason they were certain none of the kids would wake up.

That is a horrific idea, to me. Drugging children to make them sleep while you go out.

At least one of the other families' children was sick in bed while they were all left alone. The parent who was checking up on him or her cleaned the kid up and went back to the bar. Who could do that? It's not parenting.
 
escargot said:
The difference is that the McCanns are not being castigated for repeatedly leaving little children alone,* whereas less posh parents would be.
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is that true ? how relevant is it to the matter at hand, a missing child ?
 
escargot said:
They deny it but many believe they did, the logic being that there must have been some reason they were certain none of the kids would wake up.

That is a horrific idea, to me. Drugging children to make them sleep while you go out.

At least one of the other families' children was sick in bed while they were all left alone. The parent who was checking up on him or her cleaned the kid up and went back to the bar. Who could do that? It's not parenting.
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As a slight aside, it wasn't uncommon for parents in the 50's/60's and before to give children some sort of over the counter med "to help them sleep", particularly if they were ill. I doubt that my parents left me, but I do remember my mother dosing me with Dr Browne's Chlorodyne, the original recipe for which contained opium, cannabis and chloroform. No wonder it put kids to sleep.
 
I'm reading all these comments and of course you're all making valid points and making a lot of sense. It would be wrong, to leave kids that young alone. Of course it would.

But... while I'm reading these I'm also mindful that... if one believes the 'alternative' viewpoints to this whole sorry saga... that the whole 'leaving them alone while out eating and drinking'... isn't... necessarily... the entire story. It's almost... what they want us to think... because it's a lesser, and perhaps more forgiveable (in some people's eyes) 'crime' than what might be the truth.

All just speculation of course, I ain't accusin' anyone of nuthin', guv', but... well if you read some of the forums and blogs dedicated to figuring out this whole mystery, you'll see what I'm saying.

(I'm not going to post loads of links due to the 'sensitivity' of the subject... but feel free to do your own research. In fact, as I've probably said/alluded to in the past on this thread, I think it would be a good idea if more people did do more research into this).



PeteS said:
One thing that always struck me was how a pair of doctors had the knowledge and ability to assemble "a pre emptive strike machine "(as MO puts it ) in such an apparently very short space of time. They obviously did so but part of their planning did not seem to include a way to come across well to the public.
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Yup. They contacted the press very early on. Extremely early. I think it is without question that they had (have) friends/contacts in very high places.


I'm gonna assume that it's ok to add this link... it's freely available to find online, just make of it what you will..

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/04/the-strange-case-of-gordon-brown-and-the-mccanns/



maximus otter said:
1. I'm confident that that is not the case. If you have an authoritative source which demonstrates otherwise, I'd love to see it.
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I never did get around to replying to this... my apologies... (for context, this was a reply to this comment of mine) :
That's what the Met police investigation is all about; they're only looking at it from the abduction angle.
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Well... there's this:



Disclaimer: Everything in this post is my own speculation/opinion/nowt to do with the forteana forums, etc, etc, don't blame them. :hide:
 
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Shady said:
And the fact that they sedated them at times, is that bit true?
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Like many 'facts' in this case, it's not a fact at all - it's innuendo morphed into a 'fact' by repetition.

I kind of get tired of repeating this: I'm no knee jerk defender of the McCann's - I'm on the fence. For innocent people, some of their behaviour looks out of place. But then, if they were people trying to hide their guilt, some of their behaviour would look decidely counter intuitive and out of place too.

But seriously, the shadow of Salem falls all heavily over this case - and I pray to God that if I'm ever picked up for anything serious about 80% of the contributors to this thread, and the rest of the internet, are not on my jury - because, if they are, I'm absolutely fucked.

And, here's the rub, so are they - a society can be judged on how readily it finds sin in others, and whether is does so by recourse to facts, or to 'facts'.
 
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Spookdaddy said:
Like many 'facts' in this case, it's not a fact at all - it's innuendo morphed into a 'fact' by repetition.

I kind of get tired of repeating this: I'm no knee jerk defender of the McCann's - I'm on the fence. For innocent people, some of their behaviour looks out of place. But then, if they were people trying to hide their guilt, some of their behaviour would look decidely counter intuitive and out of place too.

But seriously, the shadow of Salem falls all heavily over this case - and I pray to God that if I'm ever picked up for anything serious about 80% of the contributors to this thread, and the rest of the internet, are not on my jury - because, if they are, I'm absolutely fucked.

And, here's the rub, so are they - a society can be judged on how readily it finds sin in others.
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"A Dingo took my baby."

You're right to sound a note of caution here, Spook.
 
Spookdaddy said:
But seriously, the shadow of Salem falls all heavily over this case - and I pray to God that if I'm ever picked up for anything serious about 80% of the contributors to this thread, and the rest of the internet, are not on my jury - because, if they are, I'm absolutely fucked.

And, here's the rub, so are they - a society can be judged on how readily it finds sin in others, and whether is does so with facts or 'facts'.
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I feel I must address this, as one of those who has quite a strong opinion on this case! You might not believe me, but I hate 'unsubstantiated rubbish' as much as you do... and a lot of the garbage in this case has been in the tabloid press, which unfortunately a lot of people read, and they get their 'facts' from there. And it frustrates me because people will so readily believe whatever they are told.

Look, I never take anything at face value with things like this. I read what I can about something (if it interests me enough to do so, that is) and I formulate my own opinions based on the information available. And what a lot of people perhaps don't realise in this case, is that as well as the tabloid/gutter press nonsense and wild internet speculation, there is a lot of research that has been done by certain people on certain forums and websites.

And yes... perhaps they're wrong. Who knows? Only a handful of people (maximum) really know what happened in this case. But the sort of information I'm talking about is not knee-jerk opinions, it is well thought out research that I have spent many, (many!) hours reading and more importantly, those people have spent a great deal of time compiling said research.

For what it's worth, out of the various opinions and theories I've read about, I have discounted many of them, (because as I said, I don't just believe everything I read); but there are a few that are at least plausible and worth further consideration/investigation. And what frustrates me is that the vast majority of the 'viewing public' have no idea that these inconsistencies in the case, and subsequent theories, even exist at all.

Okay, so the people doing this research are not the police and authorities, they're just... people with an interest in a case. Like there are countless sites and blogs dedicated to looking into lots of crimes, this isn't any different.

And I think it is perhaps unfair to insinuate that because some of us have looked into this research and have thought about it in depth and decided that some of the theories are at least plausible, that we are somehow not fit to serve on a jury or what-have-you.

In fact, personally speaking, I would rather have someone on a jury who was able to weigh up and consider many different options and theories, and not just believe everything at face value.

Please do not lump us in with 'reactionaries' who fling insults and opinions about without substance.


That sounded very much like a rant and I didn't really want it to. We will agree to disagree on this, and no hard feelings, etc. I just wanted to get my point across. :group:
 
escargot said:
This is what she says -


'I stand by my point-I don’t believe a working class family who left their kids home alone and went to pub, would have received all this time/money. In fact, I’d go further & say they’d prob be charged with neglect.'

Dunno who this lady is but she's right. I've always said that the McCanns & co were neglectful when they left their children alone every night while they went out socialising. If they'd been plumbers and cleaners instead of medical professionals they would have no tabloid sympathy.

I personally have no sympathy for them. As a young working class mother I stayed in with my children and their father and we watched TV and did jigsaws or gardening. They were our children and we acted responsibly towards them.
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I'm with you all the way actually. What they did was criminal, and they should have been prosecuted for it imo. I have kids and it is inconceivable. Even more-I'm personally convinced their posse weren't checking on the children as regularly as they claim and had to scratch together a fictional time frame between them pretty quickly after the event. It was one of the things that made them look so damn guilty.

In no way am I defending the McCanns; if you were to look through my posts on here I've been more than vocal about the numerous inconsistencies surrounding their version of events. What I'm questioning here really is the argument that their preferential treatment was a class issue. There's some truth in that but it's being overplayed. For a whole number of reasons Madeleine's disappearance caught the public imagination, partly because of the McCann's connections and money, partly because she was pretty, other reasons too.

It's not reasonable to make the assertion that a working class couple in the same situation would had been prosecuted because every case is so different. I remember people making comparisons with Shannon Matthews before she was found...and in that case the police clearly had their own reasons not to go overboard searching for her (although they played along).
 
Spookdaddy said:
Like many 'facts' in this case, it's not a fact at all - it's innuendo morphed into a 'fact' by repetition.

I kind of get tired of repeating this: I'm no knee jerk defender of the McCann's - I'm on the fence. For innocent people, some of their behaviour looks out of place. But then, if they were people trying to hide their guilt, some of their behaviour would look decidely counter intuitive and out of place too.

But seriously, the shadow of Salem falls all heavily over this case - and I pray to God that if I'm ever picked up for anything serious about 80% of the contributors to this thread, and the rest of the internet, are not on my jury - because, if they are, I'm absolutely fucked.

And, here's the rub, so are they - a society can be judged on how readily it finds sin in others, and whether is does so by recourse to facts, or to 'facts'.
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What we do know is there were ZERO facts (that is evidence) supporting an intruder entering 5a and taking Maddie. There was at least some evidence supporting that Madeleine died in the apartment based on the cadaver dog signals. Those signals needed to be followed up with DNA evidence which proved inconclusive in 2007 testing. But advancements in DNA testing could clear things up. A US firm has offered there services to Scotland Yard at no cost but they have not been taken up on the offer:
https://www.9news.com.au/world/made...-podcast/97e1ae48-2391-4d10-805d-2055a67e49ca
Scotland Yard are not interested in revisiting DNA evidence found in the apartment and the McCann’s rental car because Operation Grange’s remit it to investigate an abduction and an abduction only. The scope of the remit is so narrow that they are not even considering other possibilities. So even though the strongest evidence ever discovered pointed to a death in the apartment, the investigation continues 12 years and millions of pounds later, chasing phantom pedophilles across Europe.

And not that’s it important but there was at least some evidence supporting Maddie was being given sedatives to sleep. Not direct evidence that this occurred on the night in question, but certainly evidence that this was a practice in the family. See pg 32 of the “Truth of the Lie”:
http://checktheevidencecom.ipage.co...ral - Truth of the Lie - Madeleine McCann.pdf
 
Brook1916 said:
What we do know is there were ZERO facts (that is evidence) supporting an intruder entering 5a and taking Maddie. There was at least some evidence supporting that Madeleine died in the apartment based on the cadaver dog signals. Those signals needed to be followed up with DNA evidence which proved inconclusive in 2007 testing. But advancements in DNA testing could clear things up. A US firm has offered there services to Scotland Yard at no cost but they have not been taken up on the offer:
https://www.9news.com.au/world/made...-podcast/97e1ae48-2391-4d10-805d-2055a67e49ca
Scotland Yard are not interested in revisiting DNA evidence found in the apartment and the McCann’s rental car because Operation Grange’s remit it to investigate an abduction and an abduction only. The scope of the remit is so narrow that they are not even considering other possibilities. So even though the strongest evidence ever discovered pointed to a death in the apartment, the investigation continues 12 years and millions of pounds later, chasing phantom pedophilles across Europe.

And not that’s it important but there was at least some evidence supporting Maddie was being given sedatives to sleep. Not direct evidence that this occurred on the night in question, but certainly evidence that this was a practice in the family. See pg 32 of the “Truth of the Lie”:
http://checktheevidencecom.ipage.com/checktheevidence.com/pdf/Goncalo Amaral - Truth of the Lie - Madeleine McCann.pdf
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:nods:


The Truth Of The Lie is definitely well worth a read for anyone interested in the case.


EDIT:
Just noticed you're new, so :welc:
 
Schrodinger's Zebra said:
:nods:


The Truth Of The Lie is definitely well worth a read for anyone interested in the case.


EDIT:
Just noticed you're new, so :welc:
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Thanks. Yeah after watching the Netflix documentary I was pretty sold on an abduction. The series did a pretty good job of making Giancarlo Amaral just look like a corrupt idiot cop who was against the McCann’s from the start. But if you read the book you realize they had a process and they were thorough in their investigation. The English media tried to paint them out to be third-world, incompetent investigators but I don’t think that was fair at all. I also watched the Maddie podcast put out by 9news in Australia. And the statement analysis Peter Hyatt did with Richard Hall on YouTube. By the end I was pretty sold on the idea that Maddie died accidentally in the apartment and the parents hid the body. Unlike a lot of people though I don’t feel need to vilify them or even see them behind bars. But I don’t want to see them on tv or front pages of newspapers anymore either. And I don’t want to see another cent spent on the investigation, especially if the remit is going to be so narrow as to only consider an abduction and not even look at possibility the parents were involved. The money and resources could be much better spent in other police work. Even if Maddie was abducted the overwhelming likelihood is that she was dead within days if not hours after being taken.

Convincing statement analysis with Peter Hyatt:
 
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Shady said:
And the fact that they sedated them at times, is that bit true?
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I don’t know if it is true about the McCanns but Doctors used to prescribe Phenergan back in the old days to knock a restless kid out and give the parents a bit of a break and a good nights sleep. Problem was they would wake up very very grumpy next day, probably a variation of a hangover. We never used it on our 4 though we did try a drop of whiskey in the last bottle before bed on Doctors orders. Didn’t work...I should have drunk the rest of the bottle, slept through and let the little bugger scream. Nowadays the doctors would be beaten to within an inch of their lives before being sent to The Wicker Man for that type of advice.

As a rule we rarely went anywhere without the kids and if we did we always had family members to stay and babysit. We regularly turned down family gatherings and functions if the kids were not invited. We went as a family or not at all.
 
Tempest63 said:
I don’t know if it is true about the McCanns but Doctors used to prescribe Phenergan back in the old days to knock a restless kid out and give the parents a bit of a break and a good nights sleep. Problem was they would wake up very very grumpy next day, probably a variation of a hangover. We never used it on our 4 though we did try a drop of whiskey in the last bottle before bed on Doctors orders. Didn’t work...I should have drunk the rest of the bottle, slept through and let the little bugger scream. Nowadays the doctors would be beaten to within an inch of their lives before being sent to The Wicker Man for that type of advice.

As a rule we rarely went anywhere without the kids and if we did we always had family members to stay and babysit. We regularly turned down family gatherings and functions if the kids were not invited. We went as a family or not at all.
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It's just pharmacology. The body has to pay for the nice things that drugs make you feel - to put it simply what goes up MUST COME DOWN - it's neurotransmission.
 
Tempest63 said:
As a rule we rarely went anywhere without the kids and if we did we always had family members to stay and babysit. We regularly turned down family gatherings and functions if the kids were not invited. We went as a family or not at all.
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Welcome to parenthood...
 
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