The Navajo Skinwalker & 'Skinwalker Ranch'

I don’t know, unless Bigelow buried a selection of exotic materials in the mesa.

This circuit board material or material from sophisticated planes should not be in the mesa, or if it is an exotic object that for the last 3 years Travis Taylor and gang have been trying to get to.

It was mentioned in the beginning that Bigelow gave no information from their experiments to Fugal.

It was mentioned that no information about the Bigelow-Fugal sale was ever made public.

Lots of questions.
 
eburacum said:
I admit that repeating the experiment numerous times would probably fail to prove anything; paranormal events are notoriously difficult to replicate, and seem to suffer some kind of diminishing returns over time. Perhaps this is because the space ghosts get tired of performing on command.

But we do have the data from this one experiment, and if only Fugal or Taylor would release the full details for analysis, rather than this sequence of pretty pictures that could never pass peer review.
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I will ask one question that I fear I already know the answer to -- have you ever personally investigated any "paranormal" phenomena yourself? I mean actively, not by just commenting on Forteana or other sites -- interviewing witnesses, examining the location yourself, searching for physical evidence etc.?
 
I have discussed various UAPs with witnesses, yes, and in some cases found a fairly reasonable explanation for the events. In a smaller number of cases the witnesses have accepted my explanation; more often they remain doubtful, and quite rightly so. In one case I recall I gave a fairly good explanation of events which they rejected, then some time later they were recounting this explanation as if they had thought of it first.

I leave ghosts and other paranormal phenomena to my wife, who has a much more sympathetic ear, but is almost as sceptical as I am (except in the dead of night).
 
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eburacum said:
I have discussed various UAPs with witnesses, yes, and in some cases found a fairly reasonable explanation for the events. In a smaller number of cases the witnesses have accepted by explanation; more often they remain doubtful, and quite rightly so. In one case I recall I gave a fairly good explanation of events which they rejected, then some time later they were recounting this explanation as if they had thought of it first.

I leave ghosts and other paranormal phenomena to my wife, who has a much more sympathetic ear, but is almost as sceptical as I am (except in the dead of night).
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I knew of your interest in UFOs specifically, but when you say you leave all other phenomena to your wife I begin to see why you are using what I would regard as inappropriate concepts when discussing the Skinwalker evidence. In particular, many of your comments relate more to writing up findings and submitting to peer review (which is not the new, brilliant concept that it seems to be thought of as -- it has been the norm pretty well since 1950, so it's been going a long time). When you are researching what are often described as new phenomena (even though they may have been known of for thousands of years) you have to do the best you can to get any kind of clue as to what direction to take. Often the clues come regardless of your efforts. In the case of the impossible heat phenomena at Homestead 2 there is absolutely no way that conventional models can explain those results. There is no physical theory that can explain the apparent transfer of a huge amount of heat energy, and a sudden cold zone developing inside the homestead within 10 seconds, a 20deg (F I assume) drop, as shown in the infrared video. However, such sudden changes are known to take place in many poltergeist cases, and in some hauntings. In a haunted and quite active house that I spent some time in, there was a cold spot in a large lounge, near an old chest of drawers, which would chill people even on a baking hot day! Patterns like this are what will, hopefully, give us more clues as to what is happening.
 
Carl Grove said:
In the case of the impossible heat phenomena at Homestead 2 there is absolutely no way that conventional models can explain those results. There is no physical theory that can explain the apparent transfer of a huge amount of heat energy, and a sudden cold zone developing inside the homestead within 10 seconds, a 20deg (F I assume) drop, as shown in the infrared video.
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Do you have the actual figures, or is this just the spoken commentary? I've given several examples of where the data in the commentary does not quite match the data on screen. In order to prove an actual physical phenomenon associated with the chanting, we would need to perform a range of experiments with and without chanting, at different times of day, and with and without the Skinwalker crew present (in case they were affecting the data in some way). We would also need to have the exact colour equivalences of these temperatures, something that has not yet been established.
 
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And as I've mentioned earlier, I've experienced an unexplained cold spot in a haunted house, so I know they happen.
 
eburacum said:
And as I've mentioned earlier, I've experienced an unexplained cold spot in a haunted house, so I know they happen.
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So you realise that in some situations systematic experimentation is just not possible. Maybe Travis could run many replications of the H2 experiment as you suggest, although I'm sure viewers would complain if they kept seeing the same thing every week!
 
Carl Grove said:
So you realise that in some situations systematic experimentation is just not possible. Maybe Travis could run many replications of the H2 experiment as you suggest, although I'm sure viewers would complain if they kept seeing the same thing every week!
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I would be interested in establishing a baseline of temp changes and ranges. I would like to see several readings at different times of day to see what the normal temp range and changes are. You cannot say that something is out of ordinary when you have not identified what "ordinary" is. All good research starts with establishing a baseline.

Though, as you say, viewers would not find it interesting. Trying to maintain viewership is the huge obstacle when you are trying to provide good research. Research is tedious, but this attention detail is necessary.

I do not believe that systematic experimentation is not possible. The temp readings would not be difficult to do. The difficulty lies in trying to replicate the anomaly.

Without any baseline data to compare to show that this particular result is out of ordinary, you have no reliable data. You only have conjecture.
 
brownmane said:
I would be interested in establishing a baseline of temp changes and ranges. I would like to see several readings at different times of day to see what the normal temp range and changes are. You cannot say that something is out of ordinary when you have not identified what "ordinary" is. All good research starts with establishing a baseline.

Though, as you say, viewers would not find it interesting. Trying to maintain viewership is the huge obstacle when you are trying to provide good research. Research is tedious, but this attention detail is necessary.

I do not believe that systematic experimentation is not possible. The temp readings would not be difficult to do. The difficulty lies in trying to replicate the anomaly.

Without any baseline data to compare to show that this particular result is out of ordinary, you have no reliable data. You only have conjecture.
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I think that the logical baseline would be temperatures normal for that time at night in Utah at that time of year. Clearly a temperature change that dramatic and that rapid would be noteworthy under any circumstances. How would you reproduce that effect at that location using conventional heating and cooling methods? You would need to simultaneously cool down the inside of the homestead and create a 20degree warmer zone just above its roof (which is damaged but still a substantial barrier). I can't begin to imagine how it could be done. "Ordinary" in this case clearly means normal environmental sources of heat and cold. What could these sources be and how would they operate? I would still call this very much "out of the ordinary".
 
Carl Grove said:
I think that the logical baseline would be temperatures normal for that time at night in Utah at that time of year. Clearly a temperature change that dramatic and that rapid would be noteworthy under any circumstances. How would you reproduce that effect at that location using conventional heating and cooling methods? You would need to simultaneously cool down the inside of the homestead and create a 20degree warmer zone just above its roof (which is damaged but still a substantial barrier). I can't begin to imagine how it could be done. "Ordinary" in this case clearly means normal environmental sources of heat and cold. What could these sources be and how would they operate? I would still call this very much "out of the ordinary".
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All temperatures are averages. I didn't say to reproduce the effect, as that can be difficult. I only suggested that a variety of temperatures be taken in the area of the anomaly. Any area has its own microclimate. Then you know the standard range for that specific area.
 
brownmane said:
@dr wu, are you referring to the metal traces that @Min Bannister mentioned here:
Post in thread 'The Navajo Skinwalker & 'Skinwalker Ranch''
https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...skinwalker-skinwalker-ranch.6888/post-2263402

Some discussion follows this post.
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Yes after drilling they found many pieces of metal flakes which were never really explained. The trace elements are one thing but how in the heck did they end up inside the mesa? I have not heard any decent explanation yet and it seems they have ignored it on the show also.
 
Carl Grove said:
I think that the logical baseline would be temperatures normal for that time at night in Utah at that time of year. Clearly a temperature change that dramatic and that rapid would be noteworthy under any circumstances. How would you reproduce that effect at that location using conventional heating and cooling methods? You would need to simultaneously cool down the inside of the homestead and create a 20degree warmer zone just above its roof (which is damaged but still a substantial barrier).
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My hypothesis:
They chose a time of day when the heat of the desert is preplaced by cool breezes. The Homestead building is surrounded by trees, which retain heat better because of the specific heat of water; as the breeze came in it lowered the ground temperature quickly (where it is dry), but the trees remained at approximately the same temperature as before (except, perhaps, on the edge of each tree facing into the breeze, which may not have been visible from the camera set-up).

As I have repeatedly said, we need to obtain the exact scale of correspondences between the colours in that image and the temperatures involved. Hard data is necessary to show what is really going on - if the colours are set to display a few degrees change in fahrenheit, that really is fairly easy to explain. And why repeatability is a crucial factor.

More difficult to explain is why a Jewish mystical chant was chosen at all; why not a Navajo, Ute or even a Mormon chant? Were these tried and proved negative? Or is the fact that the Jewish chant takes place soon after sundown the important factor? I'm sure we've all experienced the cold breezes of early evening, even if we don't live in a desert.
 
eburacum said:
My hypothesis:
They chose a time of day when the heat of the desert is preplaced by cool breezes. The Homestead building is surrounded by trees, which retain heat better because of the specific heat of water; as the breeze came in it lowered the ground temperature quickly (where it is dry), but the trees remained at approximately the same temperature as before (except, perhaps, on the edge of each tree facing into the breeze, which may not have been visible from the camera set-up).

As I have repeatedly said, we need to obtain the exact scale of correspondences between the colours in that image and the temperatures involved. Hard data is necessary to show what is really going on - if the colours are set to display a few degrees change in fahrenheit, that really is fairly easy to explain. And why repeatability is a crucial factor.

More difficult to explain is why a Jewish mystical chant was chosen at all; why not a Navajo, Ute or even a Mormon chant? Were these tried and proved negative? Or is the fact that the Jewish chant takes place soon after sundown the important factor? I'm sure we've all experienced the cold breezes of early evening, even if we don't live in a desert.
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The range of temperatures displayed at the end was said to be 20 degrees F. What was missing (and would have been vital evidence) was a control infrared scan showing temperature before the Rabbi started his chant! Nothing was said about why a Rabbi was invited there except that he did seem to have an interest in UAPs and other topics prior to this. I think it quite likely that the local Navajo leaders would have been very reluctant to do anything that might "wake up the Ranch!" The capacity of certain sounds to trigger various effects has been part of the esoteric tradition for millennia. Interesting too is that even mainstream archaeologists have realised that many ancient stone sites were designed to generate certain high frequency sounds.
Returning to points raised earlier, we really need to know far more about what Bigelow and NIDs found. Given their close involvement with the Intelligence community it is virtually impossible that he would have been allowed to keep information about his findings to himself. Someone in the Pentagon must have a good idea what is under that mesa.
 
dr wu said:
Yes after drilling they found many pieces of metal flakes which were never really explained. The trace elements are one thing but how in the heck did they end up inside the mesa? I have not heard any decent explanation yet and it seems they have ignored it on the show also.
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It was discussed fairly briefly then left. However from what has leaked from the 4th series it seems they are going to try another way of accessing the unknown object.
 
Ringo said:
Well Atari buried a load of games and consoles in the desert of New Mexico. Maybe they also got rid of a few on the edge of an Indian reservation?
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I don't think it was Atari that buried them, some business that wanted to get rid of them. They were found in the landfill, not some remote area.
 
Carl Grove said:
Please explain exactly what you would describe as "hard evidence"! I have seen plenty of very strange happenings on the ranch that I would regard as strong evidence of something: if you can explain these I would be impressed:
1. Huge temperature inversion recorded over Homestead 2 following ancient Jewish prayer recital, and also after a recording of the prayer played.
2. The systematic deletion of data from the star map drives on two astronomical telescopes when attempting to probe the anomaly above the triangle.
3. Visual distortions such that Travis was seeing the triangle directly below him from the helicopter and dropping the sensor packs when he was actually hundreds of metres north over the mesa.
4. Total magnetic field reversals on several occasions when digging and drilling operations in progress.
5. Dangerously high levels of microwave and other forms of radiation at times.
6. Bizarre physical effects such as sudden headaches and fainting often in the vicinity of digging operations or near H2.
7. Effects of playing the weird 1.6Ghz signal over radio channel including UAP sightings.
8. Repeated UAP sightings following (usually failed) attempts to send rockets up to the anomaly.

These just occur to me randomly and I know there have been plenty more.
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I agree with you, but I am also suspicious. All the equipment is electronic and the visuals we see are on computer screens, so we don't really Know what is real and what isn't.

As for your number 1 question, I know a lot of "ghost hunters" who claim temperatures change (usually get colder) when ghosts are around. They may have experienced something and want it to be ghosts, but maybe it is just something we don't understand yet. There is so much weirdness based on our physical perspective that we can't explain, so maybe we need to start thinking outside the box and explore things without preconcieved notions of what is physically possible. We are more than the sum of our physical parts so the world probably is as well.
 
JahaRa said:
I agree with you, but I am also suspicious. All the equipment is electronic and the visuals we see are on computer screens, so we don't really Know what is real and what isn't.

As for your number 1 question, I know a lot of "ghost hunters" who claim temperatures change (usually get colder) when ghosts are around. They may have experienced something and want it to be ghosts, but maybe it is just something we don't understand yet. There is so much weirdness based on our physical perspective that we can't explain, so maybe we need to start thinking outside the box and explore things without preconcieved notions of what is physically possible. We are more than the sum of our physical parts so the world probably is as well.
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I have myself experienced cold in a haunted house, but I agree that it is hard to interpret. The suggestion in some poltergeist cases is that heat energy is being employed for the physical effects observed. (In the house I mentioned, there were physical effects including movement of fairly heavy objects.) Ghosts may be a number of things -- I don't think most of them are peoples' spirits, though a few may be. I agree 100%, the "world" is a lot more complex than we imagine. As for Skinwalker, there is a Catch 22 here -- some people demand evidence from sensors and electronics, but when they are shown such evidence remain sceptical. I would take a different tack, I would focus on the implication that there is some non human intelligence behind what is going on and see whether some kind of dialogue could be established with it. It is clear too that however ingenious the experiments, if the ranch knows in advance what is going to happen it is no surprise that the experiments mostly fail.
 
Carl Grove said:
Let's be blunt, you're basically saying that they are lying about all these findings?
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They may not be lying but they are exagerating and obfuscating. Every time they seem to have something useful it is dropped and they go on to something else without telling the television audience what happened to the last thing. Those are the ones that seem like they might have something, OR they build up and drop it because it is really nothing. It is entertainment, that is all.
 
Carl Grove said:
The range of temperatures displayed at the end was said to be 20 degrees F. What was missing (and would have been vital evidence) was a control infrared scan showing temperature before the Rabbi started his chant! Nothing was said about why a Rabbi was invited there except that he did seem to have an interest in UAPs and other topics prior to this. I think it quite likely that the local Navajo leaders would have been very reluctant to do anything that might "wake up the Ranch!" The capacity of certain sounds to trigger various effects has been part of the esoteric tradition for millennia. Interesting too is that even mainstream archaeologists have realised that many ancient stone sites were designed to generate certain high frequency sounds.
Returning to points raised earlier, we really need to know far more about what Bigelow and NIDs found. Given their close involvement with the Intelligence community it is virtually impossible that he would have been allowed to keep information about his findings to himself. Someone in the Pentagon must have a good idea what is under that mesa.
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I believe that rabbi is involved on another history channel show. I only saw one episode where William Shatner sat at a table with all kinds of people and asked questions that they took turns answering. The rabbi was one of them as well as a couple of scientists with different specialties and a few other people. I don't remember what it was called.
 
Carl Grove said:
I have myself experienced cold in a haunted house, but I agree that it is hard to interpret. The suggestion in some poltergeist cases is that heat energy is being employed for the physical effects observed. (In the house I mentioned, there were physical effects including movement of fairly heavy objects.) Ghosts may be a number of things -- I don't think most of them are peoples' spirits, though a few may be. I agree 100%, the "world" is a lot more complex than we imagine. As for Skinwalker, there is a Catch 22 here -- some people demand evidence from sensors and electronics, but when they are shown such evidence remain sceptical. I would take a different tack, I would focus on the implication that there is some non human intelligence behind what is going on and see whether some kind of dialogue could be established with it. It is clear too that however ingenious the experiments, if the ranch knows in advance what is going to happen it is no surprise that the experiments mostly fail.
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I would just like them to fixate on One area and finish that before going to the next area. They spend too much time jumping around. They started moving boulders to uncover what ever is buried under the mesa, then they went off and shot some more rockets at the anomoli over the triangle.... Then they used some sonar or something to see what was under the mesa, then they went back and shot some more rockets.
 
JahaRa said:
I think they are a buried space shuttle. :p
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Maybe Bigelow buried a space shuttle for the US as part of his deal. :p
But for me the flakes are the most interesting thing so far yet no one seems to care or know what they are.
 
dr wu said:
Maybe Bigelow buried a space shuttle for the US as part of his deal. :p
But for me the flakes are the most interesting thing so far yet no one seems to care or know what they are.
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They are certainly physical evidence of something out of the ordinary. In an excerpt from the new series I see they have tried to go above the thing in the mesa and drill down onto it, but again their equipment fails at the critical moment.
 
According to the internet, this current Skinwalker Ranch runs an unusually long 14 episodes.

How can they fill up that much air time ?

We might not find out our answers for awhile.
 
dr wu said:
Maybe Bigelow buried a space shuttle for the US as part of his deal. :p
But for me the flakes are the most interesting thing so far yet no one seems to care or know what they are.
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My aunt agrees. She is bothered that they have not dug down to see what is there.
 
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