A
Anonymous
Guest
It's a generic sort of term for spiritual "essence", although the spiritual energy does seem to correlate with physical electrical energy(ie; the whole mess with electrical meters used in ghost hunts, the effect of spirits on cameras, film, tape, etc) sometimes.
As far as I can work out Quantum Physics has given us the opportunity to assign mass to energy & so where light seemed to act contrary to the laws of physics (appeared to have the properties of photons & wave structure at the same time which was patently not on) we can use the lessons learned at the sub atomic level to explain how this is so.
This is how the idea of physical 'worlds existing within worlds' has come about. It’s an attractive theory but one has to careful of the waters being muddied by people using the word energy when in fact they mean mass i.e. its tangible & detectible.
As our understanding improves, however, I think a lot of religious / spiritual beliefs are going to be rumbled as really being natural phenomena & a perfectly normal part of the universe. This is no less amazing to me but some people do need to retain the supernatural aspect as part of their faith.
:imo:
This is how the idea of physical 'worlds existing within worlds' has come about. It’s an attractive theory but one has to careful of the waters being muddied by people using the word energy when in fact they mean mass i.e. its tangible & detectible.
As our understanding improves, however, I think a lot of religious / spiritual beliefs are going to be rumbled as really being natural phenomena & a perfectly normal part of the universe. This is no less amazing to me but some people do need to retain the supernatural aspect as part of their faith.
:imo:
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A less western approach maybe?
all from here
It's interesting how views of the afterlife from the developing world are generally excepted by folk without need to question how, why, when and what. Across Africa there are many differing views about the afterlife, some of them don't consider the 'other side' as possible, spirits merely return to earth to live amongst us or up mountains or below lakes some help us, some avoid us.
Our curious, overstimulated, fast-food minds often lead us into very blinkered approaches to questions, adopting scientific babble to try and understand something that may not even exist. I'm not suggesting we have no spirit
, what I am suggesting is that the discussion so far has dwelt more upon a scientific 'heaven and hell', western approach - to the point where mediums 'talents' are unquestioned and spiritual energy can be measured with scientific equipemt . If this approach is considered in the context of a more world-centric view it's positively rediculous
My point.. ah ha... well rather than trying to gain some scientific proof of a spirits existance in a closed frame of reference there is thousands of years of knowledge (Native Australian, African, American etc) passed down intact from generation to generation that gives untainted views on what the 'Other Side' is like. People too often reject our social history in favour of science, missing the valuable lessons that our it teaches us....if only certain world leaders would look back at our historic lessons?
Peace
all from here
It's interesting how views of the afterlife from the developing world are generally excepted by folk without need to question how, why, when and what. Across Africa there are many differing views about the afterlife, some of them don't consider the 'other side' as possible, spirits merely return to earth to live amongst us or up mountains or below lakes some help us, some avoid us.
Our curious, overstimulated, fast-food minds often lead us into very blinkered approaches to questions, adopting scientific babble to try and understand something that may not even exist. I'm not suggesting we have no spirit
, what I am suggesting is that the discussion so far has dwelt more upon a scientific 'heaven and hell', western approach - to the point where mediums 'talents' are unquestioned and spiritual energy can be measured with scientific equipemt . If this approach is considered in the context of a more world-centric view it's positively rediculous My point.. ah ha... well rather than trying to gain some scientific proof of a spirits existance in a closed frame of reference there is thousands of years of knowledge (Native Australian, African, American etc) passed down intact from generation to generation that gives untainted views on what the 'Other Side' is like. People too often reject our social history in favour of science, missing the valuable lessons that our it teaches us....if only certain world leaders would look back at our historic lessons?
Peace
escargot
Disciple of Marduk
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Here's a coincidence -
After I mentioned Flight 401 on here, I chatted to Esc'ette on MSN and she told me (without my speaking of it first) that a friend of hers has a son who works in Atlanta on planes, and he has seen the famous ovens! She said, 'and they can't put'em on planes 'cause he (Don Repo) still appears!'
The son hasn't seen the ghosts on the plane but knows people who claim to have.
As Fuller said in the book, the stories people tell about the appearances always name the correct airline and crew, unlike with a UL in which the details change.
After I mentioned Flight 401 on here, I chatted to Esc'ette on MSN and she told me (without my speaking of it first) that a friend of hers has a son who works in Atlanta on planes, and he has seen the famous ovens! She said, 'and they can't put'em on planes 'cause he (Don Repo) still appears!'
The son hasn't seen the ghosts on the plane but knows people who claim to have.
As Fuller said in the book, the stories people tell about the appearances always name the correct airline and crew, unlike with a UL in which the details change.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I think I understand what you're saying. But ... we in the 'western world' *also* have a rich spiritual heritage; remnants of which may be found in many regions, particularly rural, in addition to being contained in beliefs, customs and folk-lore.
Throughout many, many centuries, organised religion, particularly Christianity, was imposed. Many thousands died in the 'western world' for clinging to and practicing their beliefs. We in the Western World had our 'wise' elders, both male and female. They were very in touch with the natural-world; with spirits good and bad, with their physical and spiritual environment.
We of the 'western-world' did not have the privilege afforded those indigenous-people to whom you refer. We were forced to abandon (or pretend to) our beliefs and to defer to those imposed upon us. *Our* 'wise' women and men were tortured, murdered, in the name of the Christian god. Many of our beliefs were forced underground, were practised in secret under fear of exposure and death. Many of our basic beliefs were hidden, or revealed only via symbolism. Organised religion perpetrated a campaign of ridicule and lies against our gods, our beliefs. Christianity practiced 'divide and conquer'; separated us from everything we believed in. Ultimately, many of our beliefs were lost to us, taken from us by force. And it was force. The history of our current day religions and the way they were imposed upon us is a horror tale. It's only a few hundred years ago that people were still being imprisoned, killed etc. for insisting on remaining true to their version of Christianity.
However, our inherent spirituality remains and is not always sustained by organised religion. And unlike those in less developed countries, we live amongst rapidly progressing technology where 'science' demands replicatable proof of our claims; particularly those of 'esoteric' nature. State and church have the power to medicate or institutionalise those in our society who might claim that spirits reside in the village pond, or that their child is the reincarnation of their grandfather. We don't have freedom of speech and the thought-police become more active and agressive by the day.
The indigenous people to whom you refer, rarely have access to Fortean forums. If they did, and if they stated their spiritual beliefs here, proof of their claims would be demanded of them relatively often, just as they are of the rest of us. *How* would they substantiate their claims; their beliefs? Are you suggesting their beliefs are more valid than those of 'western societies' and should be believed 'just because' ? What justification is there for such an expectation? Why should their beliefs and claims be regarded as 'beyond scepticism', just because they happen to draw water from a well and use a donkey as primary means of transportation? And where, basically, is the difference between their beliefs and those of 'western societies'? They sound very similar in many respects.
We in 'western societies' are required to 'back' our claims and beliefs with hard evidence. That is why people of 'western societies' spend long, cold hours with their expensive equipment in the middle of the night in hard to reach locations. We very often have no doubt of what we've experienced (and our experiences are every bit as profound to us as those of the African/Australian tribes to which you refer), but we are required to 'prove' we saw what we saw, heard what we heard, etc.
For example, it's been observed, within our western societies, that there are dramatic temperature-drops during certain paranormal events. So, we of western societies adopt a logical approach and utilize one of the many inventions that we in western societies are so skilled at devising; sensitive thermometers with which we measure and record such temperature variations. And we utilize many other brilliant inventions in an attempt to record -- thus prove -- the spirit and other activity that we observe and experience.
A brief trawl through Fortean forums would show that we of western societies experience a multitude of paranormal occurrences; we're basically still as spiritually involved/evolved as we were when we were carving homes from the frozen wastes with nothing more than flint tools and an eye on the sky and its star maps.
We in western societies are doing a great job; a brilliant job, of exploring and investigating the world around us; including the spiritual. Intelligence has been defined as 'the ability to adapt'. We're great adaptors.
Why not give us credit where it's due? We've been robbed of our strength (our deeply held spiritual beliefs); we've adapted to everything that's been imposed upon and thrown at us; we've nevertheless retained a deep spirituality and have risen to the challenge of providing a tangible record of our beliefs, experiences, etc. You think that's easier than sitting around a fire, repeating unquestioningly simply that which has been passed down to us?
There *is* no 'better than'. Our ancestors could have matched any current-day tribe for richness of belief and spirituality. We can today.
As for our 'western' mediums; in what way do they differ from the 'witch-doctors' and shamans, etc. of indigenous peoples? ?
Only difference I'm able to discern is the fact *our* witch-doctors are subjected very often to the unrelenting scrutiny of the TV close-up. *Our* 'witch-doctors' cannot get away with a handful of bones or tossing coloured powder into the fire to dazzle our native audience. They can't spread a coloured-sand painting on the floor of the studio and then proceed to translate it. Many indigenous tribes seek those of their group who suffer epilepsy for training as shamans and witch-doctors. In our society, we medicate epileptics within an inch of their lives. And our mediums are ridiculed, disbelieved. Don't think there are too many indigenous witch-doctors/shamans who would fare any better than our western mediums, if they were subjected to the same scrutiny. There are charlatan shamans in Africa, just as their are phony mediums in western society.
Just because it's over the fence doesn't make it greener. Just because it's someone else's tribe doesn't make them 'better'.
Respect for the beliefs of *all* people is the way to spiritual growth.
Throughout many, many centuries, organised religion, particularly Christianity, was imposed. Many thousands died in the 'western world' for clinging to and practicing their beliefs. We in the Western World had our 'wise' elders, both male and female. They were very in touch with the natural-world; with spirits good and bad, with their physical and spiritual environment.
We of the 'western-world' did not have the privilege afforded those indigenous-people to whom you refer. We were forced to abandon (or pretend to) our beliefs and to defer to those imposed upon us. *Our* 'wise' women and men were tortured, murdered, in the name of the Christian god. Many of our beliefs were forced underground, were practised in secret under fear of exposure and death. Many of our basic beliefs were hidden, or revealed only via symbolism. Organised religion perpetrated a campaign of ridicule and lies against our gods, our beliefs. Christianity practiced 'divide and conquer'; separated us from everything we believed in. Ultimately, many of our beliefs were lost to us, taken from us by force. And it was force. The history of our current day religions and the way they were imposed upon us is a horror tale. It's only a few hundred years ago that people were still being imprisoned, killed etc. for insisting on remaining true to their version of Christianity.
However, our inherent spirituality remains and is not always sustained by organised religion. And unlike those in less developed countries, we live amongst rapidly progressing technology where 'science' demands replicatable proof of our claims; particularly those of 'esoteric' nature. State and church have the power to medicate or institutionalise those in our society who might claim that spirits reside in the village pond, or that their child is the reincarnation of their grandfather. We don't have freedom of speech and the thought-police become more active and agressive by the day.
The indigenous people to whom you refer, rarely have access to Fortean forums. If they did, and if they stated their spiritual beliefs here, proof of their claims would be demanded of them relatively often, just as they are of the rest of us. *How* would they substantiate their claims; their beliefs? Are you suggesting their beliefs are more valid than those of 'western societies' and should be believed 'just because' ? What justification is there for such an expectation? Why should their beliefs and claims be regarded as 'beyond scepticism', just because they happen to draw water from a well and use a donkey as primary means of transportation? And where, basically, is the difference between their beliefs and those of 'western societies'? They sound very similar in many respects.
We in 'western societies' are required to 'back' our claims and beliefs with hard evidence. That is why people of 'western societies' spend long, cold hours with their expensive equipment in the middle of the night in hard to reach locations. We very often have no doubt of what we've experienced (and our experiences are every bit as profound to us as those of the African/Australian tribes to which you refer), but we are required to 'prove' we saw what we saw, heard what we heard, etc.
For example, it's been observed, within our western societies, that there are dramatic temperature-drops during certain paranormal events. So, we of western societies adopt a logical approach and utilize one of the many inventions that we in western societies are so skilled at devising; sensitive thermometers with which we measure and record such temperature variations. And we utilize many other brilliant inventions in an attempt to record -- thus prove -- the spirit and other activity that we observe and experience.
A brief trawl through Fortean forums would show that we of western societies experience a multitude of paranormal occurrences; we're basically still as spiritually involved/evolved as we were when we were carving homes from the frozen wastes with nothing more than flint tools and an eye on the sky and its star maps.
We in western societies are doing a great job; a brilliant job, of exploring and investigating the world around us; including the spiritual. Intelligence has been defined as 'the ability to adapt'. We're great adaptors.
Why not give us credit where it's due? We've been robbed of our strength (our deeply held spiritual beliefs); we've adapted to everything that's been imposed upon and thrown at us; we've nevertheless retained a deep spirituality and have risen to the challenge of providing a tangible record of our beliefs, experiences, etc. You think that's easier than sitting around a fire, repeating unquestioningly simply that which has been passed down to us?
There *is* no 'better than'. Our ancestors could have matched any current-day tribe for richness of belief and spirituality. We can today.
As for our 'western' mediums; in what way do they differ from the 'witch-doctors' and shamans, etc. of indigenous peoples? ?
Only difference I'm able to discern is the fact *our* witch-doctors are subjected very often to the unrelenting scrutiny of the TV close-up. *Our* 'witch-doctors' cannot get away with a handful of bones or tossing coloured powder into the fire to dazzle our native audience. They can't spread a coloured-sand painting on the floor of the studio and then proceed to translate it. Many indigenous tribes seek those of their group who suffer epilepsy for training as shamans and witch-doctors. In our society, we medicate epileptics within an inch of their lives. And our mediums are ridiculed, disbelieved. Don't think there are too many indigenous witch-doctors/shamans who would fare any better than our western mediums, if they were subjected to the same scrutiny. There are charlatan shamans in Africa, just as their are phony mediums in western society.
Just because it's over the fence doesn't make it greener. Just because it's someone else's tribe doesn't make them 'better'.
Respect for the beliefs of *all* people is the way to spiritual growth.
Edward,
Sorry, I think I must have been labouring under a misaprehension. I thought the thread was established to answer Wonkydog's curiosity about the after-life via comments, evidence, possibly even anecdotes & thats why I put forward my ideas based on Quantum Physics. (They could be right, they could be wrong.. to paraphrase PIL)
Unfortunately I've got one of those '....curious, overstimulated, fast-food minds...' which '... often lead us into very blinkered approaches to questions, adopting scientific babble to try and understand something that may not even exist...'
I'll take the comment as the compliment I'm sure was intended.
I scrutinise as much of my life experiences as possible to try to enlighten myself. Its held me in good stead so far even when I'm off the mark.
'Superstition sets the whole world in flames; philosophy quenches them.' - Voltaire 1764.
Cliff
PS: Finehair - Hear, hear. Well said.
Sorry, I think I must have been labouring under a misaprehension. I thought the thread was established to answer Wonkydog's curiosity about the after-life via comments, evidence, possibly even anecdotes & thats why I put forward my ideas based on Quantum Physics. (They could be right, they could be wrong.. to paraphrase PIL)
Unfortunately I've got one of those '....curious, overstimulated, fast-food minds...' which '... often lead us into very blinkered approaches to questions, adopting scientific babble to try and understand something that may not even exist...'
I'll take the comment as the compliment I'm sure was intended.
I scrutinise as much of my life experiences as possible to try to enlighten myself. Its held me in good stead so far even when I'm off the mark.
'Superstition sets the whole world in flames; philosophy quenches them.' - Voltaire 1764.
Cliff
PS: Finehair - Hear, hear. Well said.
- Joined
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Ooops There's me jumping in with both feet AGAIN.
Robotman, Finehair: My post wast not directed or a response to anybody in particular. Apologies if any offence was taken, none was meant.
Wonky dogs question:
The purpose to my post was to highlight some other civilisations and some of their ideas about what sprits do, where they abide etc
I didn't say it was in any way better. I believe that when trying to understand something to focus on one point of view/set of results/frame of reference is not condusive to a realistic answer.
In essence, they don't. All are in the business of channeling spirits but i would question the motives of some. Especially those TV, phone, internet mediums who have a commercial interest in their successes. As its been shown, anybody with a few body language and deduction skills can create similar results.
If we consider Aboriginal, Zulu, Celtic, Egyptian etc views of the afterlife and what happens to folk when they die, whilst they are no more or less valid than a modern mediums approach, they do cast a different and interesting light on the answer to WonkyDogs question.
There's me jumping in with both feet AGAIN. Robotman, Finehair: My post wast not directed or a response to anybody in particular. Apologies if any offence was taken, none was meant.
Wonky dogs question:
The purpose to my post was to highlight some other civilisations and some of their ideas about what sprits do, where they abide etc
I didn't say it was in any way better. I believe that when trying to understand something to focus on one point of view/set of results/frame of reference is not condusive to a realistic answer.
In essence, they don't. All are in the business of channeling spirits but i would question the motives of some. Especially those TV, phone, internet mediums who have a commercial interest in their successes. As its been shown, anybody with a few body language and deduction skills can create similar results.
If we consider Aboriginal, Zulu, Celtic, Egyptian etc views of the afterlife and what happens to folk when they die, whilst they are no more or less valid than a modern mediums approach, they do cast a different and interesting light on the answer to WonkyDogs question.
Edward,
'All are in the business of channeling spirits but i would question the motives of some. Especially those TV, phone, internet mediums who have a commercial interest in their successes. As its been shown, anybody with a few body language and deduction skills can create similar results'
Dead right (no pun intended)
'All are in the business of channeling spirits but i would question the motives of some. Especially those TV, phone, internet mediums who have a commercial interest in their successes. As its been shown, anybody with a few body language and deduction skills can create similar results'
Dead right (no pun intended)
Edward said:
Good point - various cultures, and various religions, differ on what we are supposed to expect once we die. Some versions of the afterlife seem nice, others seem pretty horrid (i.e. Greek and Roman ideas about the afterlife). What mediums have come up with (if at all) is just another version of this sort of thing IMHO. It doesn't mean it's any more reliable as a source of information. For a start, it's quite firmly entrenched in Western ideas about what happens when we die.
Finehair, I have to disagree with your assertion that the Catholic church was responsibel for the loss of the shamanistic areas of western culture. IMO the process happend much earlier, the romans practised a system of taking over the local gods and giving them attributes of their own religions in order to control the populace - and it was they who famously destroyed the druids.
- Joined
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I like this idea...
From here
Reading through the differing afterlife explanations on the site there is some common ground. One being the existance of the spirit/soul. Now, this may be a symptom of religious/philosophical thought and a given in any of these circumstances but its quite ovious that geographically there is commonality between religions/philosophies particularly the americas.
From here
Reading through the differing afterlife explanations on the site there is some common ground. One being the existance of the spirit/soul. Now, this may be a symptom of religious/philosophical thought and a given in any of these circumstances but its quite ovious that geographically there is commonality between religions/philosophies particularly the americas.
The Romans were religiously tolerant because they realised a populace happy with its spiritual beliefs is easier to govern.
Anyone, in any province, could worship what/who they liked (even the incumbent Roman Emperor) so long as it didn't cause trouble. Then along came Christianity & upset the apple cart somewhat by preaching about only one, jealous God. In addition, the ritual of breaking bread & drinking wine as the body & blood of Christ was seen as human sacrifice & this wasn't going to wash in the Roman Empire. (Animals yes, humans no.)
Anyone, in any province, could worship what/who they liked (even the incumbent Roman Emperor) so long as it didn't cause trouble. Then along came Christianity & upset the apple cart somewhat by preaching about only one, jealous God. In addition, the ritual of breaking bread & drinking wine as the body & blood of Christ was seen as human sacrifice & this wasn't going to wash in the Roman Empire. (Animals yes, humans no.)