The Outrageous Life & Suspicious Death Of Jeffrey Epstein

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
I wasn't quoting Maxwell, didn't know she'd used that term, those were my words. As for trafficking, we've all seen the photos of her with Andrew, happily smiling and probably thinking there was a good pay day in it for her . The time period too, in which she's just decided after all this time to make a play for a few quid fills me with mistrust in her motives.
You weren't quoting Maxwell, you were slurring Guiffre in your very own words. Guiffre has been speaking out against Maxwell and Epstein for years and has already, as I mentioned, made Maxwell eat her words.

The photo of Guiffre with HRH shows her smiling because that was expected of her as a trafficked sex object. Getting the photo was a clever move. She couldn't have managed that without looking compliant.

Guiffre escaped the Maxwell/Epstein situation by appearing obedient enough to get sent abroad on a massage course and then ringing them to say she wasn't coming back. They still harassed her for years afterwards.

You believe that if a woman is paid for sex she is a. immoral and b. completely recompensed even if she was not willing.

This is how Epstein originally wriggled out of serious charges of having coercive sex with minors; he managed to have the matter downgraded to prostitution, putting the shame on the victims.

The days when young women were too ashamed of being used by unscrupulous adults to speak out might be over.
 

Nosmo King

I'm not a cat
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
7,180
Reaction score
13,496
Points
283
I wasn't quoting Maxwell, didn't know she'd used that term, those were my words. As for trafficking, we've all seen the photos of her with Andrew, happily smiling and probably thinking there was a good pay day in it for her . The time period too, in which she's just decided after all this time to make a play for a few quid fills me with mistrust in her motives.
I think the timing is down to the statute of limitations in the US.
 

Austin Popper

Emperor of Antarctica
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
1,253
Reaction score
2,852
Points
159
Location
Colorado, where the gold is still elusive
You weren't quoting Maxwell, you were slurring Guiffre in your very own words. Guiffre has been speaking out against Maxwell and Epstein for years and has already, as I mentioned, made Maxwell eat her words.

The photo of Guiffre with HRH shows her smiling because that was expected of her as a trafficked sex object. Getting the photo was a clever move. She couldn't have managed that without looking compliant.

Guiffre escaped the Maxwell/Epstein situation by appearing obedient enough to get sent abroad on a massage course and then ringing them to say she wasn't coming back. They still harassed her for years afterwards.

You believe that if a woman is paid for sex she is a. immoral and b. completely recompensed even if she was not willing.

This is how Epstein originally wriggled out of serious charges of having coercive sex with minors; he managed to have the matter downgraded to prostitution, putting the shame on the victims.

The days when young women were too ashamed of being used by unscrupulous adults to speak out might be over.
Thank you. Blaming the victim is as old as it is despicable.
 
Last edited:

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
The time period too, in which she's just decided after all this time to make a play for a few quid fills me with mistrust in her motives.
A skilled abuser can easily silence children and teenagers.

Many adults of both sexes don't grasp the enormity of childhood abuse against them until they are old enough to have children of their own, or are at least themselves adults.

They then understand how vulnerable they had been.

The British actor and comedian Alan Davies describes this process in his autobiography which was incidentally recently mentioned on this very messageboard in that exact context.

Davies' own father abused him and kept him compliant by telling others Davies Jnr was a liar and fantasist so nobody would believe him.*

Some of Michael Jackson's victims defended him in court and only disclosed the abuse after Jackson's death; not because he couldn't then answer back, but because by then they were grown men with an adult perspective.

This is very common with victims of abuse. Admitting it to oneself is a big step and risking humiliation by taking it further is another.
I am full of admiration for people who can do this.

*I used to dislike Davies because I found his diffident manner and slight lisp false. He seemed to be putting on a front for some reason.
I can see now what it was and have changed my opinion of him. He is a good father.
 
Last edited:

Cochise

Priest of the cult of the Dog with the Broken Paw
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Messages
7,253
Reaction score
11,065
Points
299
The days when young women were too ashamed of being used by unscrupulous adults to speak out might be over.
Sadly i think that might be optimistic. Depending on status, race, location etc.

It's still a mess. Probably better discussed on a more general thread, of which we have a couple.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
Sadly i think that might be optimistic. Depending on status, race, location etc.

It's still a mess. Probably better discussed on a more general thread, of which we have a couple.
You're sadly right. However, at least these days youngsters can talk about sex without being seen as knowing too much.
 

hunck

Antediluvian
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
6,676
Reaction score
10,518
Points
299
Location
Hobbs End
I know the two cases aren't connected, but every time I read about prince Andrew and this law suit, I can't help but think about Anne Saccoolis . She killed that poor kid, then pissed off back to the US, screaming diplomatic immunity . Do the Yanks really think we'd give up a Prince of the realm just to appease some greedy little tart and her grasping lawyers? He should just tell 'em to piss off.
You’ve said it yourself - the two cases have nothing whatsoever in common other than neither perpetrator will be extradited.

As for greed, I think any greed she displayed would likely be far & away exceeded by Epstein, Maxwell & our glorious prince of the realm. I’d like to see him tell ‘em to piss off as well - it would be the worse for him. By keeping schtum he’s effectively doing that not in so many words.

You seem to be saying that all these underage girls, & let’s not forget that sex with a minor is illegal in the first place whether willing or not, & I’ve lost track of exactly how many there are, were quite OK with whatever they were coerced to do by enormously rich & powerful people & thought at the time there’d be a big payday in it for them. I’d suggest that that opinion is quite some distance from the reality. Others here have put it better in explaining why.
 

Austin Popper

Emperor of Antarctica
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
1,253
Reaction score
2,852
Points
159
Location
Colorado, where the gold is still elusive
It takes a hell of a lot of courage for someone like her to stand up and name the rich and powerful creeps she was pimped to.

It takes no courage at all to spend a trivial fraction of your wealth in sending an army of lawyers after her. Likewise with having the palace guards protect you from being served the papers you pretend to not know about.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
It takes a hell of a lot of courage for someone like her to stand up and name the rich and powerful creeps she was pimped to.

It takes no courage at all to spend a trivial fraction of your wealth in sending an army of lawyers after her. Likewise with having the palace guards protect you from being served the papers you pretend to not know about.
Agreed. I'm really sorry Epstein wasn't kept alive to face the music, however he died - suicide or murder.

I do worry about Guiffre's safety and I'm glad she lives in Australia. Hopefully there is less chance of accidents there.
 

hunck

Antediluvian
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
6,676
Reaction score
10,518
Points
299
Location
Hobbs End
Agreed. I'm really sorry Epstein wasn't kept alive to face the music, however he died - suicide or murder.

I do worry about Guiffre's safety and I'm glad she lives in Australia. Hopefully there is less chance of accidents there.
Can’t see her coming to trouble, though it might make things tidier for a couple of people.

Maxwell on the other hand.. Still a couple of months til November.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
Can’t see her coming to trouble, though it might make things tidier for a couple of people.

Maxwell on the other hand.. Still a couple of months til November.
Ohhh yussss. :cool:

Maxwell might have to suffer a more creative end than Epstein's though.
Can't have too much of a coincidence. Lightning doesn't strike twice an' all that.

I seem to remember a discussion about this a while back. I'm not bored though. :chuckle:
 

Mythopoeika

I am a meat popsicle
Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
46,549
Reaction score
41,296
Points
334
Location
Inside a starship, watching puny humans from afar
Ohhh yussss. :cool:

Maxwell might have to suffer a more creative end than Epstein's though.
Can't have too much of a coincidence. Lightning doesn't strike twice an' all that.

I seem to remember a discussion about this a while back. I'm not bored though. :chuckle:
A car crash in a tunnel in Paris?
Falling out of a window?
 

hunck

Antediluvian
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
6,676
Reaction score
10,518
Points
299
Location
Hobbs End
A car crash in a tunnel in Paris?
Falling out of a window?
Hard to have a crash in Paris when you’re in jail in New York. And the windows have bars.

No it’d have to be heart attack, brain aneurism, falling downstairs & hitting head fatally, sudden alien abduction. ’Suicide’ is the obvious fallback option but another suicide might be a bit too coincidental.

If I were the prison governor I’d have her in a cell with concealed cctv. You wouldn’t want that unexplained death on your watch. No-one would be given authorisation access to the video unless something happened to her. I don’t know if this is allowed under privacy/human rights laws however.

I’d also make sure the cameras on her cell door were working.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
Hard to have a crash in Paris when you’re in jail in New York. And the windows have bars.

No it’d have to be heart attack, brain aneurism, falling downstairs & hitting head fatally, sudden alien abduction. ’Suicide’ is the obvious fallback option but another suicide might be a bit too coincidental.

If I were the prison governor I’d have her in a cell with concealed cctv. You wouldn’t want that unexplained death on your watch. No-one would be given authorisation access to the video unless something happened to her. I don’t know if this is allowed under privacy/human rights laws however.

I’d also make sure the cameras on her cell door were working.
Yup, letting Maxwell also slip away would look bad for whoever's in charge. :wink2:

I'd like to think she's bricking it 24/7, and that people don't spend time with her in case they're also present at the Chop.
Seems a real danger to me. She knows too much and is in a position to bargain.
 

hunck

Antediluvian
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
6,676
Reaction score
10,518
Points
299
Location
Hobbs End
Yup, letting Maxwell also slip away would look bad for whoever's in charge. :wink2:

I'd like to think she's bricking it 24/7, and that people don't spend time with her in case they're also present at the Chop.
Seems a real danger to me. She knows too much and is in a position to bargain.

Sings-

Bang bang Maxwell’s silver hammer came down upon her head

Bang bang Maxwell’s silver hammer made sure that she was dead
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
In R4's Today just now (3 minutes in so must be a Top Story with more to come :cool: ) there was mention of a denial by HRH's office that the papers had been correctly served.

Desperate talk, there! Straws clutched.
Not to mention pearls. :chuckle:

So what happens now, do we think? Will Randy Andy be commanded to take one for the Queen in a bizarre but inevitable hunting accident?

Who will order him to fall on his gralloching knife?
 
Last edited:

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
Ah yup, there was indeed a spot on the Today programme, available on BBC Sounds. The item begins at about 17:20.

HRH's argument is that as the papers were left with a police officer at his home who promised to hand them to him they weren't actually served.

HRH*'s lawyer in New York is the famous Andrew B. Brettler, Hollywood Attorney to the Stars. Mr Brettler has so far addressed the pre-case hearing to contest the validity of the service of the court documents.

This seems like normal American lawyer-play to me. We've all seen the fillums. :chuckle:

*He's getting HRH because I can't be bothered to keep typing out Randy Andy, Handy Andy, Sweaty Betty etc.
 

Austin Popper

Emperor of Antarctica
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
1,253
Reaction score
2,852
Points
159
Location
Colorado, where the gold is still elusive
We love our technicalities over here. This one is ludicrous, since the serving of papers is a formality to ensure the legitimacy of the court's decision. The defendent can't claim ignorance of the charges if their receipt of them is certified. This made perfect sense hundreds of years ago, but there is no way Andy doesn't know the nature of the charges. Evading the process server is a favorite maneuver of petty thieves and other small time criminals. Seeing the Royal Family stoop to such tawdry stunts is pathetic. It would actually be shocking if not for the history of the past several years. We're all so jaded by crap we never thought possible, we aren't really surprised.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
We love our technicalities over here. This one is ludicrous, since the serving of papers is a formality to ensure the legitimacy of the court's decision. The defendent can't claim ignorance of the charges if their receipt of them is certified. This made perfect sense hundreds of years ago, but there is no way Andy doesn't know the nature of the charges. Evading the process server is a favorite maneuver of petty thieves and other small time criminals. Seeing the Royal Family stoop to such tawdry stunts is pathetic. It would actually be shocking if not for the history of the past several years. We're all so jaded by crap we never thought possible, we aren't really surprised.

Evading the process server is it called then? Not original or daring, just stalling.
Good old technicalities. As you say, pathetic and tawdry. Makes people look as guilty as.

Reminds me of the defence that used to be offered by defendants of early British Breathalyser cases: as the arresting officer was not wearing his uniform hat he was improperly dressed to do his duty so the Breathalyser reading was invalid blah blah blah...

It worked a few times until some judge threw it out. :chuckle:
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
2,193
Reaction score
5,882
Points
204
Whether you have been involved in nefarious activities or not, in his position you have to be thick as a pile of Accrington bricks to allow yourself to be photographed with your arm around a young woman. I have to wonder whether someone had an eye on a future payoff/blackmail scenario to arrange for that piccie to be taken. (not meaning the woman in question)
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
2,193
Reaction score
5,882
Points
204
A skilled abuser can easily silence children and teenagers.

Many adults of both sexes don't grasp the enormity of childhood abuse against them until they are old enough to have children of their own, or are at least themselves adults.

They then understand how vulnerable they had been.

The British actor and comedian Alan Davies describes this process in his autobiography which was incidentally recently mentioned on this very messageboard in that exact context.

Davies' own father abused him and kept him compliant by telling others Davies Jnr was a liar and fantasist so nobody would believe him.*

Some of Michael Jackson's victims defended him in court and only disclosed the abuse after Jackson's death; not because he couldn't then answer back, but because by then they were grown men with an adult perspective.

This is very common with victims of abuse. Admitting it to oneself is a big step and risking humiliation by taking it further is another.
I am full of admiration for people who can do this.

*I used to dislike Davies because I found his diffident manner and slight lisp false. He seemed to be putting on a front for some reason.
I can see now what it was and have changed my opinion of him. He is a good father.
Exactly this. I've known people who were abused as children and it's only decades later that they have summoned up the courage to do something about it. Very very easy for critics with their "why wait so long, got to be a scam" type attitude when they have absolutely no idea what some kids have gone through. The fact that true allegations are historic makes them no less real. And as a small benefit no reason why real victims shouldn't at the very least grab every penny they can from their abusers as well as seeing them suffer behind bars.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
Whether you have been involved in nefarious activities or not, in his position you have to be thick as a pile of Accrington bricks to allow yourself to be photographed with your arm around a young woman. I have to wonder whether someone had an eye on a future payoff/blackmail scenario to arrange for that piccie to be taken. (not meaning the woman in question)
Agreed, it's a deeply incriminating photo. HRH says he 'can't explain' it, which actually sounds like he can't explain it away.

The original photo was a print from a film camera and was handed to the FBI in 2011 with other snaps from Giuffre's travels with Epstein and Maxwell. So it went from her to the FBI and was scanned and then released.
One assumes HRH would LOVE to accuse the FBI of doctoring it. Perhaps he hopes that's what we will infer.

Epstein had his residences bugged with video surveillance and is known to have kept copies of goings-on in a safe which was opened when his New York townhouse was raided. The Andrew photo is the tip of a large and incriminating iceberg.

One assumes Maxwell's house wasn't bugged so a little snap would have to do. Also, Epstein and Maxwell were arrogant and confident enough believe Giuffre wouldn't dare use the photo against them.

Evening Standard article about the photo from December 2019 -
No way' photo of Prince Andrew with arm around Virginia Giuffre is fake, photographer who copied image says

Ms Giuffre insisted to Panorama the photo was "authentic" and said she gave the original to the FBI in 2011.
She told the programme: "I think the world is getting sick of these ridiculous excuses. It's a real photo. I've given it to the FBI for their investigation and it's an authentic photo. There's a date on the back of it from when it was printed."
Panorama reported that a redacted court document showed Ms Giuffre handed 20 photos to the FBI in 2011 and they were scanned front and back.
But only 19 photos were shown in the public version with two reference numbers - 03956 9431 and 03956 9432 - missing, the programme reported, adding it had been told the numbers related to the Andrew photo and that it was removed from the public document to protect his privacy.

HRH was also groomed by Epstein and Maxwell. As a grown man he should really have known better.
'Thick as a pile of Accrington bricks' indeed. :chuckle:
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
Exactly this. I've known people who were abused as children and it's only decades later that they have summoned up the courage to do something about it. Very very easy for critics with their "why wait so long, got to be a scam" type attitude when they have absolutely no idea what some kids have gone through. The fact that true allegations are historic makes them no less real. And as a small benefit no reason why real victims shouldn't at the very least grab every penny they can from their abusers as well as seeing them suffer behind bars.
Yup, kids often can't even process what's happened to them. No wonder it messes with their heads and wrecks their lives.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
Heh, for some reason my spellchecker has been 'correcting' Giuffre to Guiffre.

There's a tip for HRH.
:bthumbup:
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
and then people call them mercenary wee prozzies, or similarly offensive words to that effect.
Yup, they were children who didn't understand what was going on. When they did understand it was because they'd been abused and taken advantage of.
 

pandacracker

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Messages
1,336
Reaction score
3,245
Points
189
I watched an interview with Virginia Giuffre. She said that when she first met Maxwell and Epstein they were really kind and friendly and she opened up to them about having been abused in the past. When the Loathsome Couple started their manipulations (quite soon after she confided in them I think) Virginia said that she thought something along the lines of 'Oh!, it's turned to shit, again. Maybe this is my life.'

I've not quoted her very accurately but basically part of her died/gave up. She didn't have the strength to fight it at the time so maybe part of her went along with it, like Stockholm syndrome. Luckily the part of her that didn't give in won through in the end but at quite a cost I fear.
 

Austin Popper

Emperor of Antarctica
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
1,253
Reaction score
2,852
Points
159
Location
Colorado, where the gold is still elusive
I watched an interview with Virginia Giuffre. She said that when she first met Maxwell and Epstein they were really kind and friendly and she opened up to them about having been abused in the past. When the Loathsome Couple started their manipulations (quite soon after she confided in them I think) Virginia said that she thought something along the lines of 'Oh!, it's turned to shit, again. Maybe this is my life.'

I've not quoted her very accurately but basically part of her died/gave up. She didn't have the strength to fight it at the time so maybe part of her went along with it, like Stockholm syndrome. Luckily the part of her that didn't give in won through in the end but at quite a cost I fear.
Sometimes I hope there really is a Hell.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
35,990
Reaction score
50,514
Points
334
Location
HM The Tower of London
I watched an interview with Virginia Giuffre. She said that when she first met Maxwell and Epstein they were really kind and friendly and she opened up to them about having been abused in the past. When the Loathsome Couple started their manipulations (quite soon after she confided in them I think) Virginia said that she thought something along the lines of 'Oh!, it's turned to shit, again. Maybe this is my life.'

I've not quoted her very accurately but basically part of her died/gave up. She didn't have the strength to fight it at the time so maybe part of her went along with it, like Stockholm syndrome. Luckily the part of her that didn't give in won through in the end but at quite a cost I fear.
As you may know, Giuffre eventually escaped the situation by co-operating to the extent of being trusted to travel aboard alone for a massage course.

From there she went to Australia and eventually married, settled down and had a family. She still didn't feel safe because Maxwell would always find her number and ring her with a reminder to keep her mouth shut.
 
Top