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The Phaistos Disk

minordrag

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From a book I highly recommend, "Guns, Germs and Steel," by Jared Diamond (p. 239):

"On July 3, 1908, archealogists excavating the ancient Minoan palace at Phaistos, on the island of Crete, chanced upon one of the most remarkable objects in the history of technology. At first glance it seemed unprepossessing: just a small, flat, unpainted, circular disk of hard-baked clay, 6 1/2 inches in diameter. Closer examination showed each side to be covered with writing, resting on a curved line that spiraled clockwise in five coils from the disk's rim to its center. A total of 241 signs or letters was neatly divided by etched vertical lines into groups of several signs, possibly constituting words. The writer must have planned and executed the disk with care, so as to start writing at the rim and fill up all the available space along the spiraling line, yet not run out of space on reaching the center.

Ever since it was unearthed, the disk has posed a mystery for historians of writing. The number of distinct signs (45) suggests a syllabary rather than an alphabet, but it is still undeciphered, and the forms of the signs are unlike those of any other known writing system. Not another scrap of the strange script has turned up in the 89 years since its discovery. Thus, it remeains unknown whether it represents an indigenous Cretan script or a foreign import to Crete."


Here's a Google.

Has anybody else heard of this anamoly?
 
Originally posted by Minor Drag
...to start writing at the rim and fill up all the available space along the spiraling line, yet not run out of space on reaching the center.

Maybe 'he' started from the centre and worked outwards.

That would be more logical.
 
Good point, Frobush. Looking at the disk (there are pics on the googled sites), it's hard to tell where the writing begins.

Your point reminds me of a totally unrelated scientific blunder: that of Hallucigenia, a soft-bodied animal found in the Burgess Shale. This animal would have lived in the Cambrian period, IIRC. There wasn't anything that looked like a head on the beast, just some spikes on one side and noodly appendages on the other. Well, some bright bird decided that the noodles went on the dorsal end and the thing walked on spikes! Naturally, he was amazed at such a strange creature! Now, they've decided that the reverse is true.

So, yes--the Phaistos Disk would be *that* much more interested if the writing started on the outside and went in. Perhaps it doesn't.
 
The writing does appear to have been tooled from the centre, outwards. Note how the centre is very neat, while the outer part of the spiral becomes much scruffier as it reaches the edge, almost as if the scriber was running out of space and so crammed the glyphs in.

The 'accepted' theory of the disk, is that it is a portable astronomical guide, with each glyph relating to a particular
constellation, as they would have risen in the skies of Minoan-era Crete.

One theory anyway.
 
First read about this remarkable curiosity some years ago in another wonderfull book, Ancient Inventions by James & Thorpe. Another oddity about it is that the characters are identical each time they occur, strongly suggesting that stamps carved in wood or cast in metal were used to print the symbols. Moveable type used 4,000 yers ago,wow.

BTW Minor Drag, had a great time at the Jared Diamond lecture. Thanks again. When I get out of my current state of poverty, I'll definitely get the book.
 
I have a copy of it on my bookcase (the disc, I mean). Damned if I know what it's for.
 
Yes, lopaka, the disk appears to be the earliest printed document, probably being created some 3,700 years ago.

Why would someone go to all the trouble creating at least 45 different stamps if they weren't planning on using them constantly? Why are there no other examples of not only the disk's strange language, but of similar stamped documents? Why Crete, and not Mesopotamia or Mesoamerica?

Diamond has a good line: "The disk thus constitutes a threatening challenge to historians. If inventions are as idiosyncratic and unpredictable as the disk seems to suggest, then efforts to generalize about the history of technology may be doomed from the outset. (p. 241)"
 
The secret of the Phaistos disc was finally revealed in 1984 by a scholar named Steven Roger Fischer. SRF is unique in that he has deciphered two unknown scripts - that on the Phaistos disc and the Rongorongo script of Rapanui (Easter Island). You can read his story in Glyphbreaker ISBN 0387982418.
 
Minor Drag said:
.... The writer must have planned and executed the disk with care, so as to start writing at the rim and fill up all the available space along the spiraling line, yet not run out of space on reaching the center.....

So they didn't find the dozen cocku.... erm, trial runs? :D
 
Inverurie Jones said:
I have a copy of it on my bookcase (the disc, I mean). Damned if I know what it's for.

In your case, it's probably just a quaint paperweight-cum-ornament.

I'm more interested in what the original was for... :D
 
Inverurie Jones said:
I have a copy of it on my bookcase (the disc, I mean). Damned if I know what it's for.
I've got one too.
It is an example of an uncrackable code, at the moment anyway, as there can't be any crosschecking against another text.
So you can say it means anything you like.
To me it looks like a rather repetitive story about a mohican who keeps bees.
Asa possibility, it could be a traded item from an unknown source, perhaps many hundreds of kilometers from Crete, where these punches were used more regularly, but may yet be discovered (unless it lies beneath the wave)...
steve b
 
Hello. Is anyone listening?

The Phaistos disc inscription is a call to arms. It reads:

'Hear ye,Cretans and Greeks: my great, my quick! He ye, Danaidans, the great, the worthy! Hear ye, all blacks, and hear ye, Pudaan and Libyan immigrants! Hear ye, waters, yea earth: Hellas faces battle with the Carians. Hear ye all! Hear ye, Gods of the Fleet, aye hear ye all: faces battle with the Carians. Hear ye all! Hear ye, the multitudes of black people and all! Hear ye, lords, yea freeman: Hear ye, Lords of the Fleet: To Naxos!'

'Hear ye, ye immigrants, the great and the small; ye countrymen skilled, most stalwart; lords Idaian; all Cretans: Strike ye out with the Greeks and smite the Carians, mine enemy, and succor my stricken. Safeguard me, Idaians: I am sore afraid. Loose me now. My night, my great: Ye loose me now. These afflictions so terrible and so great, verily so molestful: Ye loose me now. Down to the sea, everyone! Yea, deliver me of my great afflictions!'

Steven Roger Fischer
 
An Alternate Translation

Fascinating, Mana.

Here is another proposed explanation/translation. I have not corrected spelling and grammatical errors.


"The Disk of Phaistos (Phaestos)

About 1750 B.C. somebody has given an account of the expedition of a group of people who lived in the mountains and went in search of flat land. This report has been preserved on a disk of clay and was found in Crete at the beginning of the 20th century during excavations of the palace of Phaistos. The fact that the disk was found in a room where also some sacred objects were stored, cannot be used as a solid proof that the disk itself is a sacred object, as long as we don't know who put
it there and when. It is quite possible that the disk was discovered many centuries later by a Greek ruler, who decided to put it in a special room together with other antiquities, or who himself, like some people now, thought the disk was a sacred object, because he also could not read the script of Hittite origen.
At the moment the disk is shown in the Archaeological Museum of Iraklion. The script consists of pictures in relief, arranged spirally. For a period of 90 years many attempts were made to decipher the script, alas without success, because, among other things, it was considered to be of Greek origin, (linear A script) and had to be read from the left to the right. It also was assumed that the pictures represented letters or syllables. The script probably comes from Asia Minor (Anatolia) and has to be read from the right to the left and from below upwards, the usual direction in the Middle East. That appears from some inscriptions found in Mallia (Crete) and dated to about 1700 B.C. The inscriptions are in Greek script and so they have to be read from the left to the right. On these inscriptions are 2 pictograms of the same meaning as those on the disk, but they are put in the reversed order. Here we are dealing with a simple form of picture-writing, a script composed of pictograms and used by the Hittites. Everybody could read it, independent of the language spoken. Probably this script was widely known and used in international
contacts. I found several pictures of the disk in the writings of the Aztecs, like that of the priest with a kind of cockscomb. Besides, the men seem to wear a close fitting cap that can also be seen in images from an old S. American (?) culture. (Picture script has to be read in the direction in which people are walking or looking,
so, in this case from the right to the left. Egyptian hieroglyphics are also read in that direction). It is quite possible that the author(s) of this report wrote it originally on the disk of a tree trunk or carved it in the wood and that it later on was copied on a disk of clay. The disk was baked, so that it could not be lost.

[The Philistines were not the original inhabitants of Crete. According to the Bible, Joshua 13: 1-3, they lived in the Middle-East and were chased away from their homelands by the Israelites. They (partly) fled to Crete about 1200 BC.]

I hope that at the beginning of this new millennium we shall succeed in resolving at least one problem of the past century, with the help of my translation.

The report starts in the center on the side that consists of 31 sections and continues on the reverse.


Translation.

1. In the royal house .... is a (young) prince who didn't yet come into power. His specialty is the scull.

2. We, a group of subjects, start by marching through the woods.

3. We have got with us metal ( ? ), a barbed spear of metal, fire and some idols of the god of the flat land which cannot yet take effect, because we are still without the protection of a priest.

4. The prince with the sculls becomes the head of the group.

5. He brings with him fire, a "fork" [that gives him access to the god Shamash] and a hammer.

6. We go on through the wood and now we have the protection of a priest.

7. He protects us indicating the best route by means of a horn and the flight of eagles. The route leads to the south with a slight deviation to the west.

8. A woman is accompanying us, she brings with her a "fork" and a "saucer", [both give her access to certain gods], and timber.

9. We need the god of the flat land to find flat land for timber (timber-work), for the poultry and for cages. The protection of the priest is a help to us.

10. The route leads to the east, as the priest, protecting us, indicates by means of a horn (horns) and the flight of eagles.

11. One group goes on through pasture-land (wet land).

12. They have timber, a hammer and sculls for a boat and cross the water. They go upstream. The water is smooth, the priest animates the god of the flat land.

13. The route leads west, as the priest, protecting us, indicates by means of a horn (horns) and the flight of eagles.

14. There is (wood for) a hammer and there is fish.

15. We have got with us metal ( ?) a barbed spear of metal, fire and some idols of the god of the flat land which now take effect, because there is the protection of the priest.

16. The route leads to the west, as the priest, protecting us, indicates by means of a horn (horns) and the flight of eagles.

17. Our group (also) goes then through wetland (pasture-land).

18. We have timber, a hammer and sculls for a boat and cross the water. We go upstream. The water is smooth, the priest animates the god of the flat land.

19. A boat is shipwrecked due to the god of the weather.

20. The prince from our royal house has survived, just as the hammer and the poultry, we still have the protection of the priest.

21. There is land with a well and clay, we ramble through the neighborhood.

22. There is fire for a "fork" of clay [to get access to the god] and we are protected by the priest.

23. By means of fire, a horn and the flight of eagles is indicated the direccion. The route leads to the south with a slight deviation to the east.

24. [The first pictogram is illegible]. There is the timber (timber-work) of the woman and the protection of the priest.

25. After a fight we take possession of a peninsula of this shape. It is flat.

26. There is protection thanks to an island, [it is Chios], the water is smooth.

27. There is fish and there is a well. We dismiss the priest as our protector.

28. We call upon the god of the starry sky and are guided by the constellation Canis. This is its position. A few years pass by.

29. We are on an island. This is the position of Canis.

30. There is protection thanks to a well and there is a structure (pigeon-house).

31. There is (we need) timber and we go into the woods under protection of the priest.

32(1). We are on an island.

33(2). We take the boat and go downstream. The water hammers at the boat. We call upon the god of the starry sky and are guided by the constellation Canis.

34(3). We reach a piece of land. The water hammers at the land. There is fire thanks to the woman and she pushes the priest aside.

35(4). There is land with timber due to the god of the weather. The god of the vegetation is operating here, the land is very fertile (?).

36(5). The other group fights for the possession of land that isn't very accessible. This is the position of Canis. Here some settle down.

37(6). There is a structure (pigeon-house), there is timber and (wood for) a hammer. There is land.

38(7). We are on an island, there is land.

39(8). There is (wood for) fire and timber and land.

40(9). We take the boat and go upstream. The water hammers at the boat. We call upon the god of the starry sky and the god of the flat land.

41(10). Our group fights for the possession of land that isn't very accessible. We are not that strong. This is the position of Canis.
Here some settle down.

42(11). We are on an island. This is the position of Canis.

43(12). We go through a wood and after a fight we take possession of it. This is the position of Canis.

44(13). The other group fights for the possession of land that isn't very accessible. This is the position of Canis.

45(14). We go on through flat land that is very fertile (?), thanks to the priest.

46(15). There is fish due to the god of the weather. There is poultry and there is fire thanks to the woman.

47(16). We go on through water abounding in fish. This is the position of Canis.

48(17). There is timber and (wood for) cages and arrows.

49(18). There is flint to make fire. There are some structures ( pigeon-houses). This is the position of Canis.

50(19). We go through the territory of the prince and take the boat. We go upstream, the water is smooth.

51(20). There is a well in a place that isn't very accessible, the priest uses a horn.

52(21). There is fire at the well.. There is a structure (pigeon-house) and land.

53(22). The boat touches rocky ground. We use the barbed spear to make it float again. We decide to settle down.

54(23). There is (we need) timber and we go into the wood. We reach a piece of land with a cleft. [This is the cleft they call in the 20th century A.D. the gorge of Samaria ].

55(24). There is fish due to the god of the weather, we go on through the woods.

56(25). There is a piece of sandy soil. Take care, there is danger. There is timber (and wood) for the hammer and for arrows.

57(26). There is protection thanks to the flint, there is a structure (pigeon-house) and there is fish.

58(27). There is flat land to put ashore the boat (boats).

59(28). We have a male child, a hammer a spear and a priest.

60(29). There is (wood for) fire and (or on) the island, the water is smooth.

61(30). We are going to settle down on land with a well and we have the protection of the priest."

By Hedwig Roolvink. Taken from this site.
 
I found this site , which, amongst other things, suggests Fischer's timelines may be awry (unfortunately the link they have for Fischer is to the New Scientist "Current Reviews" section, and is out of date.)
 
The translation I provided was taken directly from Glyphbreaker as mentioned in a previous post. It is not a literal translation but rather written in the style of the extremely ancient Greeks. SRF says that the language on the Phaistos disc is distantly related to Greek.

To see how he arrived at his translation you would have to read the book since it is far to long to post here. I can't really comment on Derek H's post but I will say that SRF is a well qualified researcher. He is currently the director of Polynesian Languages and Literature in New Zealand.
 
The translation I provided was taken directly from Glyphbreaker as mentioned in a previous post. It is not a literal translation but rather written in the style of the extremely ancient Greeks. SRF says that the language on the Phaistos disc is distantly related to Greek.

To see how he arrived at his translation you would have to read the book since it is far to long to post here. I can't really comment on Derek H's post but I will say that SRF is a well qualified researcher. He is currently the director of Polynesian Languages and Literature in New Zealand
It is certainly possible that the language of the Disc is related to ancient Greek; it apparently displays prefixes just like Greek, but could be in one of many ancient Indoeuropean languages. SRF may be near the truth, but without another text to cross-check against it cannot be said to have been translated fully.
For instance, I read it as-
“In the city by the mountains and the river, famous for metalwork and dentistry, the Prince Brush-head and his consort went to the shops to buy meat and flowers. Their beehive was bigger than the gardener’s nose-“
and so on
 
Zygon said:
In your case, it's probably just a quaint paperweight-cum-ornament.

I'm more interested in what the original was for... :D

Well, yes, that's rather what I meant...
 
A year and 2 months to respond to one of my wiseass smart-aleck remarks. Is this a record? :D

I'm not complaining mind: at least it's a >sniff!< response of some sort... :sad:
 
people used stamps to decorate pottery millenia ago - it's one of the very VERY early things we do.

The breakthrough of "moveable type" took off becuase of the social economic and political circumstance. It's probably been just about there any number of times before.


Kath
 
has the cia/fbi had a crack at breaking the code/ glyphs yet?

never mind its a silly question :rolleyes:
 
wouldn't be suprised melf dear... after all, it's dangerously close to a book.....

:D


Kath
 
:D

i think the one of the differcultlies in translating some acient unknown languige codes is that "we" always assume the most commonest letter/symbol is always going to be equated with the letter "E"
but i may be wrong tho
 
This link cropped up on another thread:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 318911.ece

July 12, 2008
Phaistos Disc declared as fake by scholar
Dalya Alberge, Arts Correspondent

Some say that its 45 mysterious symbols are the words of a 4,000-year-old poem, or perhaps a sacred text. Others contest that they are a magical inscription, a piece of ancient music or the world's oldest example of punctuation.

But now an American scholar believes that the markings on the Phaistos Disc, one of archaeology's most famous unsolved mysteries, mean nothing at all — because the disc is a hoax.

Jerome Eisenberg, a specialist in faked ancient art, is claiming that the disc and its indecipherable text is not a relic dating from 1,700BC, but a forgery that has duped scholars since Luigi Pernier, an Italian archaeologist, “discovered” it in 1908 in the Minoan palace of Phaistos on Crete.

Pernier was desperate to impress his colleagues with a find of his own, according to Dr Eisenberg, and needed to unearth something that could outdo the discoveries made by Sir Arthur Evans, the renowned English archaeologist, and Federico Halbherr, a fellow Italian.

He believes that Pernier's solution was to create a “relic” with an untranslatable pictographic text. If it was a ruse, it worked. Evans was so excited that he published an analysis of Pernier's findings. For the past century innumerable attempts have been made to decipher the disc. Archaeologists have tried linking them to ancient civilisations, from Greek to Egyptian.

Dr Eisenberg, who has conducted appraisals for the US Treasury Department and the J. Paul Getty Museum, highlighted the forger's error in creating a terracotta “pancake” with a cleanly cut edge. Nor, he added, should it have been fired so perfectly. “Minoan clay tablets were not fired purposefully, only accidentally,” he said. “Pernier may not have realised this.”

Each side of the disc bears a bar composed of four or five dots which one scholar described as “the oldest example of the use of natural punctuation”.

Dr Eisenberg believes that it was added to lead scholars astray — “another oddity to puzzle them, and a common trick among forgers”. The Greek authorities have refused to give Dr Eisenberg permission to examine the disc outside its display case, arguing that it is too delicate to be moved.

His misgivings could be laid to rest by a thermoluminescence test — a standard scientific dating test — but the authorities had refused, he said. In Rome, this test cast doubt recently on the provenance of another iconic archeological object.

Experts are now contending that the Capitoline Wolf, the famous bronze sculpture of a she-wolf suckling Romulus and Remus, founders of the city of Rome, dates from the Middle Ages, and not Etruscan times, as long has been held.

The Capitoline Museum's website says that the statue, known as Lupa, or she-wolf, is from the 5th century BC and was donated to the museum in 1471 by Pope Sixtus IV.

etc....
 
Hmm. Just back from Greece, where I bought some Phaistos disk earrings for my missus.

Might be a fake - who knows. Certainly nothing else like this has ever been found- but that could be said of a lot of things.
 
eburacum said:
Hmm. Just back from Greece, where I bought some Phaistos disk earrings for my missus.
blimey, I hope they weren't to scale. :)
 
if i was a phaistosian there would be something i would really want to do. i would want to sail a boat to the underworld where my hero radamanthys lived and record my journey.

i would suggest the disc is a month by month [1 month per side] captains log of a sail around what was left of okeanos in hades. the symbols represent what he saw on the shoreline but some would indicate which direction he sailed if there was a choice.

you may notice groups of symbols [days] in reverse order indicating he is retracing his route seemingly on a body of water with many inlets.

jmho
 
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