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The Picts

The term 'True Romanies' is somewhat pejorative and usually employed by those wishing to impose sanctions on those of a nomadic bent. Whatever you may think of that, it's probably best left here to the Kilroys of the world.

But, yes Scotland does have a Romany (that is, Romani-speaking and observant of cultural taboos and mores found across Romani populations in Europe) community mostly concentrated in the lowlands, particularly numerous in Larkhall, West Lothian and the borders. Scotland had its own Gypsy Kings, crowned at Yetholm until the late nineteenth century. Most of them are from the Kalderash tribe.

The position of the 'Tinkers' is somewhat different. There has been a great deal of intermarriage in some parts, giving rise to the 'Gypsy Traveller' epithet. Generally though, the two groups do not get on, the Tinkers referring to the Romanies as 'thae foreigners' while the Romanies turn their nose up at them and think up much more creative names, usually in Romani.

Scottish Tinkers are of a kind with the Irish and speak Cant, although in the highlands they spoke a Gaelic backslang known as buerla regaird. Timothy Neat's The Summer Walkers was published a few years ago and is probably the most authoritative recent account of these northern Tinkers, known as the Ceardannan. their roots go back at least as far as Celtic/Gaelic Scotland, though others have posited that due to their distinctive use of words not-cognate with Gaelic, Scots or English and their physical appearance, they may be a Pictish or Neolithic throwback. Neat himself plumps for a relationship with the Lapps and Sami, supported somewhat by cultural similarities and their facial appearance. He describes Tinkers as broad-headed, relatively flat faced and stocky, often dark haired but sometimes fair-headed, like the Sami. And it is true, if you know what to look for you can usually detect Tinker ancestry among some individuals from these features - although Neat's association is very much a circumstantial theory.

However, Traveller populations are no more static than settled - the ranks of Scotland's Travelling people have been swollen since the process of land clearance began in the 17th century, reaching a height with the Highland clearances, the Scottish Potato Famine and movement towards an enclosure system. Not sure if any of these DNA wizards have been conducting any tests in this area or not.

Anyway, hope that clears up some of your questions
 
Ps...

In both Scotland and Ireland the instances of 'Iberians' - dark haired, relatively dark skinned people among the population has been long reported. In Ireland, folklore attributes it to a throwback from Milesius, the Spanish Celt who allegedly brought the current day residents over to Ireland in his prehistoric conquest of the country. The Iberians have also been linked to Spanish survivors of the Armada, washed ashore and taken up with local girls.It has also, of course, been linked to signs of the Pretani or Cruithne, the early pre-Celtic population of Scotland and Ireland and apparent progenitors of the Picts still extant among the population.

I'll shut up now.
 
tang-malow said:
I think you will also find that the Romans did infact fear the picts and there are many legends in which whole legions disappeared without a trace in Caledonia.

I've done a fair amount of research in European archaeology and I've not come across much indication of a universal Roman fear of Picts or Caldoniis (whatever you want to say). A few instances, yes, but nothing substantial.
 
Yeah, typical, work out something to say, a few good points to make and it's long after the fact. Isn't that the way it always goes :roll: lol
 
Oh and extracting the blue dye from woad produces a really strong foul smell and processing it was banned from within city limits during medeival times. Apparently it smells like excrement and boiled cabbage.
 
A link to article on a pictish stone near my home.
http://www.ancient-scotland.co.uk/site.php?a=141

There is the site of a Pictish fort at nearby Burghead, although as usual with sites in Scotland, not much has been done to exploit this site or educate people about the Pictish life.

Then of course theres Robbie the Pict, who is an interesting individual and who keeps coming up with little gems which have embarrased the government and succeeded in the abolition of tolls on the Skye Bridge.
http://www.highlanderweb.co.uk/robpict.htm
 
alytha said:
Weeelll...
There's the Nac Mac Feegle, who call themselves pictsies..as they believe in different worlds, they might well have been here at some point...
To be found on any Terry Pratchett site

Then there's the Taltos, who are the real picts, if you believe Anne Rice...but they've pretty much died out now, apparently...
To be found on Anne Rice-stuff pages

8) Alytha

I have your signature tatooed on my wrist :oops:
 
Ancient language mystery deepens
By Victoria Gill, Science reporter, BBC News

A linguistic mystery has arisen surrounding symbol-inscribed stones in Scotland that predate the formation of the country itself.

The stones are believed to have been carved by members of an ancient people known as the Picts, who thrived in what is now Scotland from the 4th to the 9th Centuries.

These symbols, researchers say, are probably "words" rather than images.

But their conclusions have raised criticism from some linguists.

The research team, led by Professor Rob Lee from Exeter University in the UK, examined symbols on more than 200 carved stones.

They used a mathematical method to quantify patterns contained within the symbols, in an effort to find out if they conveyed meaning.

Professor Lee described the basis of this method.

"It I told you the first letter of a word in English was 'Q' and asked you to predict the next letter, you would probably say 'U' and you would probably be right," he explained.

"But if I told you the first letter was 'T' you would probably take many more guesses to get it right - that's a measure of uncertainty."

Using the symbols, or characters, from the stones, Professor Lee and his colleagues measured this feature of so-called "character to character uncertainty".

They concluded that the Pictish carvings were "symbolic markings that communicated information" - that these were words rather than pictures.

Professor Lee first published these conclusions in April of this year. But a recent article by French linguist Arnaud Fournet opened up the mystery once again.

Mr Fournet said that, by examining Pictish carvings as if they were "linear symbols", and by applying the rules of written language to them, the scientists could have produced biased results.

He commented to BBC News: "It looks like their method is transforming two-dimensional glyphs into a one-dimensional string of symbols.

"The carvings must have some kind of purpose- some kind of meanings, but... it's very difficult to determine if their conclusion is contained in the raw data or if it's an artefact of their method."

Mr Fournet also suggested that the researchers' methods should be tested and verified for other ancient symbols.

"The line between writing and drawing is not as clear-cut as categorised in the paper," Mr Fournet wrote in his article. "On the whole the conclusion remains pending."

But Professor Lee says that his most recent analysis of the symbols, which has yet to be published, has reinforced his original conclusions.

He also stressed he did not claim that the carvings were a full and detailed record of the Pictish language.

"The symbols themselves are a very constrained vocabulary," he said. "But that doesn't mean that Pictish had such a constrained vocabulary."

He said the carvings might convey the same sort of meaning as a list, perhaps of significant names, which would explain the limited number of words used.

"It's like finding a menu for a restaurant [written in English], and that being your sole repository of the English language."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-10924743
 
So they were Pictograms, yes?

I was in Pictland in April, took Dad to see a few stones (and a Souterrain)

He was most upset when I told him no one knew what they meant.
 
Well, I presume Picts were the ancestors of the Scots? So I am putting this here:

'First tartan' on Roman statue

Remnants of a Roman statue in North Africa could be the "first-ever depiction of tartan", according to a BBC Scotland documentary.

A piece of a bronze statue of the Emperor Caracalla contains the small figure of a Caledonian warrior wearing what appears to be tartan trews.

The third century Roman emperor Caracalla styled himself as the conqueror of the Caledonians.

A statue marking his achievements stood in the Moroccan city of Volubilis.

It stood above a great archway in the ancient city, which lay in the south west of the Roman empire, 1,500 miles from Caledonia - modern day Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20579219
 
Well, I presume Picts were the ancestors of the Scots?


No, the Scot's ancestors were the Scoti who came from Ireland. The Picts were the culture before them.
 
I knew I was going to be corrected on this one! :lol:

But there isn't a Scoti thread and this statue would be of the time of the Picts, right? Wrong, no doubt...
 
Zilch5 said:
But there isn't a Scoti thread and this statue would be of the time of the Picts, right? Wrong, no doubt...

No you're wrong, what you say is quite right. This would definitely date from the Pict's era.
 
oldrover said:
Zilch5 said:
But there isn't a Scoti thread and this statue would be of the time of the Picts, right? Wrong, no doubt...

No you're wrong, what you say is quite right. This would definitely date from the Pict's era.
That's why the article mentions, Caledonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_during_the_Roman_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonians
http://www.unrv.com/provinces/caledonia.php


Originally they called the inhabitants of Scotland, Caledonians, after one of the local tribes and looked on them as Britons, same as the rest of the inhabitants of the Gods forsaken outpost islands. Then when the Caledonians started kicking up rough, the Romans started calling them, 'Picts', instead, which is Roman for, 'tattooed neds'.

The Romans thought they could bundle them in with the rest of Britain, too. They learned otherwise. Hence the tying of Caledonians/Picts up and the feeding of them to big cats.
 
Pictish written language discovered in Scotland
http://termcoord.wordpress.com/2013/04/ ... -scotland/
Posted on April 10, 2013 by TermCoord

A new language dating back to the Scottish Iron Age has been identified on carved stones.

These inscriptions are believed to belong to the early Pict society living from ca 300 to 843 AD, in modern-day eastern and northern Scotland. The Picts, meaning “the Painted Ones”, were named by the Roman Eumenius in 297 AD and are renowned for having repeatedly repelled invasions from both Romans and Angles, creating a clear North-South division of the British Isles.

Celtic tribes around Ireland, Wales and Scotland are known for their use of stylised stones as signs of ownership and to indicate their names. In the past, some two dozen Pictish Ogham inscriptions had been found in the north and north-west of Scotland. Oghams, also called Primitive Irish, compose a lexigraphic language and the earliest inscriptions discovered date back to the 4th century AD.

The new written language discovered in Scotland differ however very much from Ogham as the study published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society A, led by Rob Lee, Philip Jonathan and Pauline Ziman reveals.

Indeed, in order to identify the languages, the three professors applied a mathematical method called Shannon Entropy. This process studies the order, direction, randomness and other characteristics of the different engravings. The results have then been compared to English prose fictions, Chinese prose and poetry, Egyptian monumental texts, Mycenaen lists, king and genealogical list, English texts transposed in morse code and Sematogram heraldic. This calculation also included Irish, Welsh, Norse, Turkish, Basque, Finnish, Korean as well as ancient inscriptions from the British Isles (Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Old Norse, Ancient Irish and Old Welsh).

Even though the study reveals that the Pictish symbols discovered are part of a lexigraphic writing (containing symbols that represent parts of speech), the researchers came to the conclusion that the stones would also present semasiographic symbols (that do not represent speech). Thus, the stone called Hilton of Cadboll features pictures of riders and horn blowers next to hunting dogs.

The team conducting the study however did not possess enough information to achieve a decipherment. As they say: “In order to answer the question of whether the symbols are words or syllables, and thus define a system from which a decipherment can be initiated, a complete visual catalogue of the stones and the symbols will need to be created and the effect of widening the symbol set investigated”.

In the future, more research will probably derive from the existing findings leading to a complete decipherment of this Iron Age language.
 
Discovery of a new-old language is exciting, though the bits of Ogham we have don't amount to a literature exactly, being epitaphs chiefly. I'd guess these Pictish inscriptions are along the same lines. Still, every scrap of information from this period is welcome. :)
 
A couple of pictures that some might find interesting. They are of the Eagle Stone in Strathpeffer, a Pictish boundary stone from what I can understand.

211.jpg


209.jpg
 
Cheers! The uppermost has the site of Knock Ferril (sp?) vitrified fort in the background. Didn't get to visit it, a nasty looking cow barred our way as we walked along the old HR trackbed. :(
 
'Early Pictish Royal remains' discovered at Rhynie

The remains of what it is thought could be a member of early Pictish royalty have been discovered during an archaeological dig in Aberdeenshire.

The discovery at Rhynie was made by teams from the universities of Aberdeen and Chester.

The remains were found in a carefully made sandstone grave, which the experts believe suggests the person was of high status.

It is the first time remains of a body have been uncovered at the site.

Project leader Dr Gordon Noble, of the University of Aberdeen, said: "We found elements of the legs, pelvis and jaw bone which we recovered and are now analysing in the lab.

"It's extremely rare to find any human remains from this era in the north east of Scotland as the soil in this part of the world is so acidic.

"One of the graves had been carefully made from split sandstone slabs to create a cist and the stone lining and collapsed capstones helped to preserve skeletal material.

"Unlike Anglo-Saxon areas to the south, the tradition in Scotland was largely for unfurnished burial so we didn't expect to find rich grave assemblages."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-n ... d-24018459
 
I am a tinker, summerwalker, Ceardannan and whatever else you wish to call me. Had my yDNA done. Very interesting. It has been a family tale as far back as can be remembered that we tinkers of the north were in fact The Picts. Some of our traditions are very unique. The tale is that other Picts chose to marry into the Scots, while we refused to marry outside the Pictish tribes. Now this has been carried down these 1000 years or so and has become not marrying outside the Tinker/Traveller community. Whether there is validity to the tale I do not know for sure. But what I do know is that we can spot another Tinker/Traveller anywhere. We are still very tribal. And we still have secrets that the settled population are very much unaware of. And we are very violent ( I say this with a great deal of shame ). We have unwritten laws and rules that have governed us for hundreds of years ( lately postmodernism has done a great deal of harm to the old ways ). We view the world in stark terms: us (meaning Tinker/Traveller folk) and them ( everyone else ). I see so much error when people try to identify and categorize Tinker/Travellers ( remember you only see the idiots who break laws, behave like wild beasts, etc., you see the 10 to 20% that want to be seen. The rest of us are indeed among you and you will never know. We like it that way. ) The Romans scarred us, the Scots ran us off our lands, the English vilified us, the Enlish sent us in droves to Canada. The Colonies, Australia and elsewhere. So is it any wonder why most of us try to fly under the radar, so to speak?
 
A large Pictish stone carving has been uncovered during excavation work on a £35m link road in Perthshire.

The carving, which features a walking figure holding a spear, was discovered by workers on the A9/A85 project. near Perth.

Contractors Balfour Beatty temporarily stopped works to allow archaeologists to inspect the stone carving.

Similar Pictish stones have been discovered in Aberdeenshire, the Highlands and Islands and Shetland.

Mark Hall of Perth Museum and Art Gallery said the stone showed a particular kind of Pictish carving not previously known in the area.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-41816148
 
Archaeologists return to site of ‘lost Pictish monastery’

Archaeologist Alison Cameron and her team could be on the brink of making a discovery of national importance at land close to Old Deer in Aberdeenshire.

For 10 years, a search has been made for the monastery that dates from the sixth century but disappeared around 1,000 years ago. Some believe the Book of Deer, a richly decorated pocket-sized book of gospels was created here with Gaelic notes on local life later written in the margins by monks.

For 10 years, a search has been made for the monastery that dates from the sixth century but disappeared around 1,000 years ago. Some believe the Book of Deer, a richly decorated pocket-sized book of gospels was created here with Gaelic notes on local life later written in the margins by monks.


Full story at the link: https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/archaeologists-return-to-site-of-lost-pictish-monastery-1-4708593
 
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