The Rosa Lotti Case (Italy; 1954)

Ronnie Jersey

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My point is that the object was not airborne during the encounter, so unfortunately this brings into play possible human-made contraptions, either ‘out-of-place’ or as a deliberate joke on the witness. To claim it is an alien spacecraft may be informed speculation but it is speculation nonetheles.

Im not trying to be clever or disrespectful to anyones beliefs, but I don’t feel we can overlook that fact.
Yes, you're absolutely right - but if it was a diving bell or something else similar, it was gone when they went back to take a look, with a hole left.
And who was going to move this diving bell?
In the end, I think Ms. Lotti was unable to accurately describe exactly what she saw, leaving quite a bit of doubt.
As were the two little boys who observed her.
A strange case nonetheless.
 

BS3

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Perhaps there was a scrap metal facility nearby? Perhaps it is some US or Axis abandoned military hardware from the war a few years earlier?

My point is that the object was not airborne during the encounter, so unfortunately this brings into play possible human-made contraptions, either ‘out-of-place’ or as a deliberate joke on the witness. To claim it is an alien spacecraft may be informed speculation but it is speculation nonetheles.

I‘m not trying to be clever or disrespectful to anyones beliefs, but I don’t feel we can overlook that fact.

It might worth pointing out that the landing site - if that 2006 photo is to be trusted - also includes a tall, narrow cypress tree. Now I know you'd think Lotti would have been completely familiar with the scenery, but in the dim light at that time of the morning, who's to say what details her imagination might have filled in?

I think the context is all important here: the 1954 wave was at its height in Western Europe, particularly France, and the papers of both France and Italy were full of saucer and occupant stories. Patrick Gross's list of French cases gives a flavour of what was going on.
 
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BS3

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The only other thing I can think of is that the object does bear a general resemblance to certain types of portable stove or vertical boiler. The 'pot bellied' shape, the hatch, the small 'window' - they do fit to some degree. The question is then whether a contraption of that kind might have been in the woods, perhaps in connection with some forestry related work.
 

Jokers Wild

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Two tiny Humanoid Aliens with rabbit-like teeth wanted to be friends with the Italian farm-wife Rosa Lotti :headspinner::headspinner:


God I love this kind of stuff :bthumbup:
 
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EnolaGaia

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The only other thing I can think of is that the object does bear a general resemblance to certain types of portable stove or vertical boiler. The 'pot bellied' shape, the hatch, the small 'window' - they do fit to some degree. The question is then whether a contraption of that kind might have been in the woods, perhaps in connection with some forestry related work.

The area is vineyard country, and it was the first of November. Vineyards and orchards sometimes use smudge pots / "heaters" to generate warm air around the plants. However, I haven't been able to locate any vintage versions of such heaters that match this object's description.
 

Paul_Exeter

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The only other thing I can think of is that the object does bear a general resemblance to certain types of portable stove or vertical boiler. The 'pot bellied' shape, the hatch, the small 'window' - they do fit to some degree. The question is then whether a contraption of that kind might have been in the woods, perhaps in connection with some forestry related work.
Is it a bird, is it a plane…

074015B3-C3BD-4429-9146-19A059F1F6F1.jpeg

No, it’s an antique smudge pot
 

Paul_Exeter

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Going back to Rosa’s description, there are some definite similarities: she described “two bells joined together“. So what if a local blacksmith had been asked to construct a large one specifically for a local vineyard.

Doesn‘t explain what it was doing in the forest or the two humanoids
 

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Paul_Exeter

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One last thought: Rosa didn’t look behind the object, and the child witness thought it looked like a “big animal” so was there more machinery out of her sight line?

So did Rosa stumble across an illicit still…? Imagine chancing across this one below in the dim light:


X-tempImageWYmWN1.jpg

https://www.desstilluk.co.uk/500-litre-commercial
 
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EnolaGaia

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Also so interesting results when looking at traditional copper boilers used for making alcohol and coffee ...
I‘m not pretending these are even close matches, but imagine seeing one abandoned and in the dusk light. Rosa described a “leather” exterior- boiler cladding …?

Yep ... Rosa described the object as having a "brown" color. At least one of the early accounts claimed she stated the object had a sort of shiny characteristic similar to polished metal. Even this one stopped short of claiming the object was definitely metal.

This sounds like either an older object with a uniformly brown-ish patina (corrosion?) or something made of copper.

It's unclear how close Ms. Lotti ever was to the object, but none among the published accounts claims she ever touched it. It "looked like" leather (according to some accounts), but there's no reason to believe it "felt like" leather.
 

EnolaGaia

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One last thought: Rosa didn’t look behind the object, and the child witness thought it looked like a “big animal” so was there more machinery out of her sight line?

If you stick to her explicit description the object was tapered on both its upper and lower halves, these two halves were at least roughly symmetrical, and the object was only about a meter wide at its broadest (middle) part.

How, then, did the tapered bottom half of the object effectively hide two small figures standing behind it? If the figures themselves were only about as tall as the lower half of the object (from the ground up to midpoint) their legs and lower bodies should have been visible all along.

The various accounts aren't clear on the details, but none of them claim she moved laterally around the object or saw it (in its entirety) from more than one angle.
 

EnolaGaia

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The CUFOS (Loren Gross; 1991) compendium of 1954 historical incidents gives a pretty comprehensive review of the Lotti encounter:

http://www.cufos.org/UFO_History_Gross/1954_11_12_History.pdf

It seems to be a fusion drawn from multiple sources. One interesting tidbit is that it describes Ms. Lotti's initial view of the object as follows:

Entering a clearing, the farm woman spotted a big spindle-like object standing on end close to a cypress tree.

... which helps to explain why the later photo of the alleged encounter site was identified by its being the location of a cypress tree.
 

Ronnie Jersey

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If some large pieces of equipment had been moved from the spot near the cypress tree, wouldn't there be wagon wheel marks or something similar in the area?
I mean, this was a forest, so I would imagine a vehicle might not be able to drive through.
And a large hole was mentioned in the earth, left by the 'spindle' Ms. Lotti described. So wouldn't some method of transporting this thing also be noticed?
Reading EnolaGaia's link above, Ms. Lotti was found to be illiterate, which must be why she could not give an accurate description of the thing she saw, she mentioned 'spindle' because that's something she was familiar with.
Also, these things can take off with no sound, and when she turned to run it could have simply taken off without her realizing it. She said she looked back and it was gone, and if that is true, it disappeared very quickly.
 

BS3

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The CUFOS (Loren Gross; 1991) compendium of 1954 historical incidents gives a pretty comprehensive review of the Lotti encounter:

http://www.cufos.org/UFO_History_Gross/1954_11_12_History.pdf

It seems to be a fusion drawn from multiple sources. One interesting tidbit is that it describes Ms. Lotti's initial view of the object as follows:



... which helps to explain why the later photo of the alleged encounter site was identified by its being the location of a cypress tree.

That's a very helpful source as it clarifies which details came from the 1970s investigation rather than the contemporary newspaper reports.

Incidentally Lotti lived into her 90s, and was alive until as late as 2006. I wonder if she was ever tracked down for any further interviews?
 

EnolaGaia

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If some large pieces of equipment had been moved from the spot near the cypress tree, wouldn't there be wagon wheel marks or something similar in the area?

If the object was heavy enough and required a vehicle to carry it - yes. However, there's nothing in the available reports to indicate Ms. Lotti confirmed it was a heavy metal object.

I mean, this was a forest, so I would imagine a vehicle might not be able to drive through.

No, not exactly ... We don't know where along her path this encounter occurred. The area was largely covered in scrub bushes and trees. It wasn't a large mature-growth forest.

We don't know exactly how the landscape appeared in 1954. If it was anything like its current state, there were plenty of open areas and vineyards(?) between the La Collina estate and Cennina. There are tracks running to / through these tended areas - paths big enough for a tractor or other vehicle.

And a large hole was mentioned in the earth, left by the 'spindle' Ms. Lotti described. So wouldn't some method of transporting this thing also be noticed?

The (few) accounts that mention a hole being found at the scene at least 30 minutes later state it was 10 cm X 15 cm (roughly 4 inches wide and 6 inches deep).

... She said she looked back and it was gone, and if that is true, it disappeared very quickly.

In at least one account she specifically reported seeing the object (2m tall) standing taller than the surrounding brush / foliage as she approached the clearing. We don't know the density or extent of foliage in the direction of Cennina (toward which she exited the scene). As such, we don't know whether she could have seen the object after walking or running circa 100m away toward Cennina.

Also ... If the "spindle" she saw wasn't a heavy (e.g., metal) object there's the possibility the two little men brought it down from its upright position as she left the scene, dropping it out of sight by the time she'd traveled 100m and looked back.

It's also worth noting that not all the accounts mention her looking back and determining the object was already gone.
 

Ronnie Jersey

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That article is a condensed or extensively excerpted piece derived from Sergio Conti's 1972 article about the incident (Flying Saucer Review, Vol. 18 no. 5 (September / October), unpaginated(?)).

Here (attached) is a scanned PDF file of Conti's entire / original article. I'm attaching it because the download from the source link below doesn't seem to reliably work.

SOURCE: http://www.ignaciodarnaude.com/avistamientos_ovnis/Conti,Humanoids 1954,Cennina,FSR72V18N5.pdf
I was using your link above which states:

"After running about 100 meters, she looked back. Everything had vanished." But I realize there are quite a few of her stories out there.

And if this thing was in the area of 7 feet high and had seats inside of it, according to her, must have had some weight to it,
it left an imprint in the soil allegedly.

She should have been asked to draw a definite picture of exactly what she saw, along with the beings, because her descriptions are very vague and unclear.
 

EnolaGaia

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This photo appeared in the publication Tutti, presumably in early November 1954. I can't locate a version in which the text is legible.

It shows Lotti illustrating how tall the object was. It appears to be an image of a cigar is superimposed onto the image to represent the general tapered shape of the object.

It's unclear whether Lotti ever approved the cigar-shaped representation of the object, nor is it clear the superimposed cigar shape relates to anything she stated within the article. It's not even clear she ever saw this article.

Lottie-ObjHeightIllo.jpg
 

Ronnie Jersey

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One more question:

At that cufos link: http://www.cufos.org/UFO_History_Gross/1954_11_12_History.pdf

There is mention of a UFO landing at 6:30 a.m., which is the time of Ms. Lotti's sighting of this thing, and two more sightings of the UFO, by adults:

"Stonemason Romualdo Berti, who lived across the valley in house that had good view of the wooded area in question, swore he saw "luminous cigar" spurting flame rise vertically out of the trees and then assume horizontal position, afterwhich it zoomed away in the direction of Badia Ruoti. And, hunter in the woods at the time later told the newspapers he had witnessed the landing, at distance, of strange object at 6:30 a.m. which would'put it at the same moment as Mrs. Dainelli's encounter. 11. Furthermore, it seems delivery man for local florist, Andrea Livi, had been driving his van near Bucine about 6:30 when he saw something in the sky coming from the direction of Florence which he said resembled a "red cone" about feet long that left behind a reddish smoke trail. This "cone" flew out of sight in the direction of Siene. 12. While checking these accounts investigators came up with another interest ing bit of information. They found in the newspaper Giornale del Mattino story about two young boys, ages six and nine, who had seen something while they were doing some farm chores, getting up early on November 1st to care for some pigs. The youngsters said they had seen woman talking with some strange little men. Che of the boys remembered scribbling something about the incident in his elementary school composition book. The oldest boy, the nine-year-old, said he ran to get his father to witness the encounter(It is assumed the six year-old accompanied him as best he could. There is no re ference to the actions of the younger child), but by the time he returned, with his father in tow, both the woman and the little men were gone."

Very strange.
 

Paul_Exeter

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This photo appeared in the publication Tutti, presumably in early November 1954. I can't locate a version in which the text is legible.

It shows Lotti illustrating how tall the object was. It appears to be an image of a cigar is superimposed onto the image to represent the general tapered shape of the object.

It's unclear whether Lotti ever approved the cigar-shaped representation of the object, nor is it clear the superimposed cigar shape relates to anything she stated within the article. It's not even clear she ever saw this article.

If you were to know superimpose two children of the size she claimed then there isn’t much space inside that ‘craft’ for seating, controls, motor (of whatever technology) and fuel.They certainly didn’t have any onboard toilet facilities…

Also not very comfortable for them if the craft flies in a horizontal position (second witness). If it isn’t a human-made object she misinterpreted (or used as part of a prank on her) then there is a big argument for the Distortion Theory here. For example, the second witness describes ‘flames‘as it took off, yet she saw no obvious exhaust outlet and also flames are very ‘human earth rocket’ and not very interstellar craft
 

maximus otter

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…the second witness describes ‘flames‘as it took off, yet she saw no obvious exhaust outlet and also flames are very ‘human earth rocket’ and not very interstellar craft

l recall reading an article about plane crashes in which the author mentioned that witnesses expect to see flames coming from a falling aircraft, so their accounts include them even if they weren’t present.

maximus otter
 

Aether Blue

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An illicit still operated in the woods by shady characters seems more likely to me than a diving bell.

While Italy had some pretty advanced underwater military apparatus during WWII, and this equipment could have wound up almost anywhere in the country after the war, it would be very difficult to move quickly. A still designed for portability could leave a deep impression in the earth when full, but yet be light enough to be carried by a few men when empty.

Don't operating stills have a characteristic odor though? Even if they don't, wouldn't rapidly emptying one at night leave some recognizable residue?
 

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An illicit still operated in the woods by shady characters seems more likely to me than a diving bell.

While Italy had some pretty advanced underwater military apparatus during WWII, and this equipment could have wound up almost anywhere in the country after the war, it would be very difficult to move quickly. A still designed for portability could leave a deep impression in the earth when full, but yet be light enough to be carried by a few men when empty.

Don't operating stills have a characteristic odor though? Even if they don't, wouldn't rapidly emptying one at night leave some recognizable residue?
I wondered if it was a local who was about to set the still up in the forest, put it down on the ground and then found that he'd placed it directly on the route that anyone walking from the farm to the church would use. So he picked it up (if it was a copper still without anything attached or anything inside, it would be light enough to carry) and took it deeper into the woods to hide it. It was that time in the morning that a fair few people (especially in an agricultural community) would be up and about.
 

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If we turn this around, and say what evidence do we have that an illicit still was seen, we still have nothing except, potentially, a hole in the ground. Were there rumours that were recorded? I think that generally locals have a good idea of what is going on in these close-knit rural communities (Luigi's cousin's friend can sell you cheap booze, just don't tell anyone...). The problem with these old cases is that everything amounts to speculation years after whatever happened actually happened, if anything happened at all.
 

BS3

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If you were to know superimpose two children of the size she claimed then there isn’t much space inside that ‘craft’ for seating, controls, motor (of whatever technology) and fuel.They certainly didn’t have any onboard toilet facilities…

Also not very comfortable for them if the craft flies in a horizontal position (second witness). If it isn’t a human-made object she misinterpreted (or used as part of a prank on her) then there is a big argument for the Distortion Theory here. For example, the second witness describes ‘flames‘as it took off, yet she saw no obvious exhaust outlet and also flames are very ‘human earth rocket’ and not very interstellar craft

This is something I'd been thinking, actually: even the slightly larger object given in the usual illustration is just too small for the entities shown. If the overall height was no more than that being indicated by Lotti in the picture-with-superimposed-cigar, then this is even more of a problem - as usual there are many things about the sighting which make no sense if taken in a completely literal fashion.

The height does seem reasonable enough for a portable furnace / grappa still / smudge pot / heater / whatever, though.
 

Ronnie Jersey

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Just my opinion, the UFO witnesses are of some importance, especially the sighting of the landing at 6:30 a.m., the exact time of Ms. Lotti's experience.
They do seem to corroborate that something out of the ordinary happened that morning.
 

EnolaGaia

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This is something I'd been thinking, actually: even the slightly larger object given in the usual illustration is just too small for the entities shown. If the overall height was no more than that being indicated by Lotti in the picture-with-superimposed-cigar, then this is even more of a problem - as usual there are many things about the sighting which make no sense if taken in a completely literal fashion. ...

Exactly ... It makes little or no sense to even entertain the notion that the mysterious object was a vehicle within which the two little men could ride.
 

Paul_Exeter

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This is something I'd been thinking, actually: even the slightly larger object given in the usual illustration is just too small for the entities shown. If the overall height was no more than that being indicated by Lotti in the picture-with-superimposed-cigar, then this is even more of a problem - as usual there are many things about the sighting which make no sense if taken in a completely literal fashion.

The height does seem reasonable enough for a portable furnace / grappa still / smudge pot / heater / whatever, though.
And of course she never actually saw them in the object, only two seats but without any detail. We’re they padded leather seats or simple wooden ledges? Or were they not seats at all but something mistaken for seats in the dim light and excitement of the moment?

That said, I am still open to the idea that this was a Distortion image for Rosa’s benefit and there was some sort of - possibly robotic - alien/other craft that she encountered and was witnessed by others in flight
 
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EnolaGaia

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And of course she never actually saw them in the object, only two seats but without any detail. We’re they padded leather seats or simple wooden ledges? Or were they not seats at all but something mistaken for seats in the dim light and excitement of the moment? ...

Different accounts give different descriptions of any internal "seats" Ms. Lotti saw, and some accounts don't mention any "seats" at all. The accounts that mention seats don't match as to where within the object she saw them.

Most accounts that mention "seats" (e.g., the Conti report) indicate she saw them through the little door in the lower half of the upright object. There's at least one account that claims she spied the "seats" through one of the "portholes" or glass window in the central (widest) portion of the object.

It's unclear whether these "seats" were reported as being little chairs versus stools. The Italian WikiUFO article I linked to simply describes them as "round." The WikiUFO article also specifies the seats were located at each of the two portholes in the object's central section, even though she saw them through the opened door in the lower section.

I've not seen any account in which Ms. Lotti is cited as claiming she saw any mechanical / technical apparatus (e.g., piping; machinery; controls) within the object.
 
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