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The Rosary, The Romany & The DIY

CuriousIdent

Not yet SO old Great Old One
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
1,507
Location
Warwickshire, England.
Okay, truth be told this didn't actually happen to me, but to a friend of our family, as will become clear.

I live here in Warwickshire, in the middle of the UK, the area which I grew up in and returned to after graduating University in Wales.

My parents are both teachers (Well, my mum isn't anymore. She got sick of the paperwork and antisocial hours, retrained) and through a shool my mother taught at during the late 70s my mother met another teacher who also lived in our town, and she and her husband had two daughters.

You know how it goes, we were throqwn in together as youngsters, and spent time together, but were always in different classes at chool etc...

Anyway, I digress...

Now their eldest daughter, who is the same age as me, recently moved back to the area. She had followed her mother's example and become a teacher, and had been teaching down in London. But teachers being paid as comparitively little to the means they require, she was eventually forced to move back home and seek a position somewhere a little less ridiuclously expensive to live.

She has just taken her first step onto the property ladder, buying a small house in Earlsdon, a region of Coventry (That ridiculous city trapped within the pincers of Warwickshire, and yet remains adamantly not part of the county). Earlsdon is, by and large a fairly decent part of the city, with several floor edwardian terraced housing. It's a bugger to find a house which actually has room for parking, but it's squarely on the bus route and populated by many of the student populace of Warwick University.

When she aquired the house, which has been partly modernised, the previous owners told her that whilst they were in the process of replacing the interior and exterior doors of the property, as part of the modernisation, they had to lift up the paving slabs outside the front door. As they did, just beneath them, they found something peculiar.

A string of Roman Catholic Rosary beads.

The Rosary had clearly been placed under the slabs whenever they had been layed.

The owners told her that they had replaced them under the slabs once the new door was fitted. Her and her parents did not think too much about it. There was still work that needed doing, and as part of the final deal the previous owners had negotiated to take the old fireplace away, as her father was going to fit new central heating into the place.

Now, odd as though it may sound, some weeks later when her father came around to continue doing just that, he received an unusual visitor.

In a number of Warwickshire towns, as is the case in many parts of the country, we are occasionaly visited by Romany women, who usually come around in groups of two or three, into shopping centres, high streets and even suburban streets, forcefully selling charms and lucky heather. And forcefull, even viscous they sometimes come across. They are usually quickly huried away by police or security staff within seconds in town centres. Nobody knows where they came from, nobody sees where they go.

On this day as her father was in the ouse with the door still open, one of these very women pushed her head through the door. Her patter was well rehearsed, and she came in asking if they were interested in buying a charm to protect the house-

And then she stopped dead, with her speech, paused a moment and stepped away from the open door.

She appologized, stating that she could see this house was already protected.

Her father smiled and said, 'really?' and something along the lines of it was probably good luck, as he had no change on him anyway.

"But you're not a religious man, are you?" She asked.

He confessed, no, but that actually this was not his own house but his daughter's.

The woman stated "But she is not either? You have two daughters, don't you?"

Shortly after this strange exchange the woman left, and they have not seen her since.

Of course it may just be pure coincidence, but it is nevertheless a curious story.

But by far the what interests me the most is the Rosary. Now, it's certainly an old house, and the beads themselves may have been in the earth there even before the slabs were layed. But I was wondering what it might of signified.

So far in discussion with others I have heard mixed theories.

The clearest is that they are purely placed their in the foundation as a a deterent, to keep out ungodly and unwanted forces, and possibly Romanies.

But another guy at work also seemed to believe that rosary beads are also used one step further than this. He believed that a string of Rosary beads was buried in the earth outside a doorway by a priest, as a final deterant after he had peformed an exorcism upon a spirit within a property which had been touched by such a force. The beads were placed under the door after the spirited had been moved, to stop it from returning.

Does anybody else know of any truth in either of these concepts?

Anybody else experienced anything similar?
 
I've heard of a similar custom of burying a statue of St. Joseph in the yard of a house you wish to sell. It is explained in detail here:
http://www.irregardless.net/degage/stj_ljs.htm

"According to the U.S. Catholic Information Center in Washington, D.C., the tradition is traced back hundreds of years to Theresa of Avila, who prayed to St. Joseph when the convents needed more land and encouraged nuns to bury St. Joseph medals in the ground as a symbol of their devotion."
 
Burying stuff in a house for good luck is a pretty old custom, I think - people sometimes unearth dead cats and stuff within houses.
 
Yes, I suppose they do, but a Rosary? Can't help thinking that a specifically Catholic item was being placed there for a different reason.

:?:
 
Well your reasoning is as good as any, actually.
If any-one takes up the skirting boards in this bedroom, the may wonder why some-one stuck a gold crucifix in the wall, but actually I accidentally kicked it under there when my chain broke, nothing interesting.
I've heard before of things being buried on properties, I'll try and think more on it, I'm sure my grandmother told me something not disimilar years ago, but unfortunately she is passed on, I'll rack my brains.
 
Somewhere 'round here I saw a thread about cats, babies etc. deliberately put into building foundations.
 
That's really interesting. I'm a Coventry resident myself, and have lived in a number of places in Earlsdon myself (Albany Rd, Poplar Rd, Hawkins Rd) when I was a student here ( I just kind of stayed on). I'd be curious to know which street the house is on.
 
master_of_skeletons said:
That's really interesting. I'm a Coventry resident myself, and have lived in a number of places in Earlsdon myself (Albany Rd, Poplar Rd, Hawkins Rd) when I was a student here ( I just kind of stayed on). I'd be curious to know which street the house is on.

Sadly I'm not actually sure. Like I say family friend, who I only actually bump into 2 or 3 times a year. But our parents are still very much in touch. I'll try badgering mine when I next see them.

Did you encounter such a character while you were around that way?
 
Lethe said:
Well your reasoning is as good as any, actually.
If any-one takes up the skirting boards in this bedroom, the may wonder why some-one stuck a gold crucifix in the wall, but actually I accidentally kicked it under there when my chain broke, nothing interesting.
I've heard before of things being buried on properties, I'll try and think more on it, I'm sure my grandmother told me something not disimilar years ago, but unfortunately she is passed on, I'll rack my brains.

Oh yeah, I know what you mean. It's just this Rosary bead was in a dug out area under slabs which had been concreted in some good many years earlier. Certainly predating the previous owners.by a fair time.

It seems a little less likely that this just slipped down there directly infront of the front door when the slabs were being laid. Somebody put them there on purpose. I guess the question though, is why?

I don't know much about Rosary beads myself. I'm Methodist, not Catholic, but are there different kinds?
 
I have had a couple of sets, though I'm not Catholic, I don't think there are differences in them unless say, the Eastern Orthodox Church uses something different, although I'm not sure, as you say, if it was a bit of one, a few beads, broken, it could have been dropped, a full set of beads does suggest a reason for it being there. Even if some-one just happened to drop their beds there, few people would just leave them, even if they only picked them up to dispose of them.
 
I vaguely remember from RE (Catholic) that for thing like rosary beads, you weren't supposed to throw them in the bin if they got broken but bury them.

Whether this was official Catholic teaching or the ranting of our Parish Priest at that time (he didn't last long, moved on at the request of the parishioners for being deranged).
 
I'm out of my depth here, but maybe someone can help me out...

I think I remember reading somewhere that the religion of some Romanies incorporates elements of Catholicism. Maybe rosaries play a part in these beliefs. And maybe the house was at some stage inhabited by a Romany family who gave up the traditional lifestyle.

Perhaps the visitor noticed some other tokens left by the previous inhabitants, which would escape the eye of the unititiated. That's how she knew the house was already 'protected'. And that's why she backed off - because she thought she might be dealing with people of Romany descent.

It's a theory! :roll:

Duncan.
 
Please excuse me for using Wikipedia as a source, but here's what they have to say on the religion of the Roma:

Usually Roma have adopted the dominant religion of the host country, but keeping their particular way of believing and worshipping. Eastern European Roma are either Orthodox or Catholic, those of Western Europe either Catholic or Protestant, as well as in the USA, while in Latin-America they usually kept their European religion, most of them being Orthodox. After WWII, a consistent and constantly growing number of Roma have embraced Evangelical movements, and for the first time in history, Roma have engaged themselves as religious leaders and ministers, creating their own, autonomous churches and missionary organizations. In some countries, the majority of Roma now belong to the Romany churches. This unexpected change, usually hardly criticized by many, has greatly contributed to a better image of Roma in society, as they have begun to perform legal work and obtain legal permits for commercial activities. The Evangelical Romany churches exist today in every country where Roma are settled, particularly strong is the movement in France and Spain (in this last State, there are more than one thousand Romany churches –“Filadelfia”–, of which almost one hundred only in Madrid); in Germany the most numerous group is that of Polish Roma, having their main church in Mannheim. Other important and numerous Romany assemblies exist in Los Angeles, Houston, Buenos Aires and Mexico. Some groups in Romania and Chile have joined the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

source

Curious Ident, I think your story is one of the most interesting I have read in a while, though I regret that I have nothing really to contribute!
 
light said:
Curious Ident, I think your story is one of the most interesting I have read in a while, though I regret that I have nothing really to contribute!

Not a problem. Thank you for your contribution all the same.

At a bit of a tangent I was talking to my girlfriend about this last night, and she was sure that it is not only Roman Catholics who use Rosary beads. Obviously they are the most well known, but she seems pretty certain that other slightly more pagan religions have also used them.

I've still no more proof of my work coleague's 'excorsim' claim mind...
 
Hello.
Your grlfriend is correct,muslims jews hindus and buddhists all use some form of rosary beads as a means of keeping count of prayers psalms and mantras,and earlier religions also used them in the form of pebbles counted into a bowl or bag.

I also know..(Although I cant remember where I heared it) that in days of yore,superstitious folk used all sorts of things built into or placed around the house in order to ward off evil...such as witch bottles under the doorstep or hearthstone...cats in the plaster of the walls....a cows heart stuck through with iron nails up the chimney....childrens shoes under the floors or behind walls.

We still see this sort of thing today with the iron horseshoe over the door and brightly coloured witch balls hanging in windows.

Being superstitious myself,and believing in luck both good and bad,I have placed my sons first baby shoes into the ceiling of my new cellar conversion,an iron horeshoe nail under the front and back doorsteps and a small black glassed mirror on the roof.

My partner thinks I am mad,but I don`t like taking any chances.LOL!

I like to think the rosary under the paving stone is someone weaving a protecting spell upon the house.
I hope your sister is very happy there. :D
 
The house in which I used to live had a set of rosary beads firmly fixed under a shelf under the stairs. I don't remember my parents' explanation but I assumed they had been placed there as a good-luck charm by my grandparents. There was also a small image of the Sacred Heart, such as is used as a bookmark in Catholic Missals.

Lifting the floor of the cupboard under the stairs provided access to the rickety steps down to the cellar, which was where the family had taken refuge during the air-raids of WWII. I always assumed these religious charms were left where they were to protect the house from the bombs.

They did this very well and those beads were firmly fixed, resisting every one of my childish attempts to free them. :)
 
So, so far it's all good with the beads. I think the previous pwners were a little afraid to remove them.
 
Now this little black glassed mirror was given to me about 17 years ago by a guy I only ever knew as Northly.He used to be into all kinds of ritualistic occult-type practices,and to be honest I used to think he was more than a bit odd.
He basically scared the life out of me by telling me he could see negative energy being projected at me by.."a bad person"..and handed me this little black concave circular piece of glass that he told me had been used in skrying rituals and deflection spells...he expained that I should fix it onto my house preferably the roof and it would send back any negative energy to the person sending it to me.
Well,just to be on the safe side...thats exactly what I did and have done in every house I`ve lived in since.
I`m sure it`s probably all hocus pocus nonesense,but.......you never know really do you. :oops:
 
Possibly.I`m not very clued up about all of this stuff.

Another point....when my little boy was 4 months old he had menengitis and was in hospital for weeks.....the first six were spent on an isolation ward but when he got a bit better he was moved to a ward and in the next cot to him was a little baby from a Romany family.....everyday his daddy would come in and sprinkle holy water on his son......so there must be some kind of link with Romanys and catholics....maybe?
 
We will have to find some-one who knows more about Romany traditions, although perhaps it varies, and there probably are not too many ' real ' Romanies around in the UK these days.
As every-one knows, there is a lot of Catholic ritual in Voodoo or Voudon, if that is the correct word, and the African slaves were an ' ethnic minority ' like the Romanies, in a certain way. I have been in quite a few houses where there are religeous symbols or paintings, even though the occupants are not religeous, they are more for ' good luck '.
But I like the idea about the exorcism, since it's interesting :D , I never let the truth spoil a good idea. :lol:
 
The bagua I have (purchased at a Chinese store) does have a mirror at the centre.According to my wife and her family(Chinese) the mirror is to deflect negative energies and is placed on the outside of the house
 
Traditional rural Catholics in Ireland would have great belief in the Holy Water, my mother scatters it around sick farm animals, etc. and claims this - not the antibiotics - is what cures them. She also distributes little relics of St Martin de Porres to people who are ill, and believes totally in 'Holy wells', which have 'the cure' for warts, dandruff, whooping cough, whatever. Dried up so-called 'palms' (bits of spruce, etc.) from Palm Sunday, clutter up our vehicles, sheds, each room in the house, etc.

It is totally impossible to explain to her that this is all superstition and nothing to do with Catholic church doctrine. These little rituals and beliefs have built up over the centuries and become attached to catholicism somehow. It is not new of course, in medieval times some of the relics and pilgrimages were as silly and irrational. This simple sort of traditional faith is also strongly followed by Irish Travellers (who are not Romanies). Not sure what religion the Roma are, though would assume given the geographical origin of this people that it is either Roman or Orthodox Catholicism.
 
I have heard of the tradition of putting childrens shoes in the walls and ceilings of a house to protect it from bad luck.
 
I placed little Palm Sunday palm-crosses on the window-sills, many years ago when the children were young. And kept open Bibles in the rooms; discreetly placed. A few years earlier, when single, I would probably have laughed at such behaviour and regarded it as childish. But the house had given me a few frights and I was sole protector of the children. Our house didn't have much in the way of security; we had just ordinary locks on the door, most of which were the sliding glass type. And the window-closures were next to useless. So I derived reassurance from the crosses and Bibles and pushed logic to one side. The palm-crosses became very dried out and brittle, so I was always very careful of them when I was dusting. If they fell over, I always stood them upright again, against the windows.

One night, approx. half a dozen immediate neighbours were robbed, very systematically, even the father and son policemen who lived diagonally opposite us. Our house was not touched; not even an attempt to break in. There may have been a perfectly logical reason, as I was aware, but I had a primitive suspicion the palm-crosses had protected us.

Looking back, I suspect my mind had created a protective bubble around our home, using the palm-crosses as external focus. The lady who heals and protects her animals and friends .. and who also places faith in aged palm-crosses, etc. ... may unknowingly be doing the same thing. In other words, faith and belief may actually be the charge that empowers inanimate objects such as rosary beads, crosses of all kinds, potions, etc.
 
Abraxas12 said:
A bit like the Chinese Bagua mirror then,deflecting negative energes

In Southern Germany it is fashionable to place colored glass balls on sticks in the garden. You see them almost everywhere, as long as I come there. Sometimes you will see ten in one garden. They look like Christmas decorations, but solid and sometimes almost football sized. I've always wondered whether there isn't a "good luck" superstition behind this practice.

Another angle:

My friends and I like to explore deserted buildings and last week we traveled to Charleroi (Belgium). We parked the cars next to a deserted water tower and I saw that there was a decayed Muslim prayer bead-chain on the ground. I found this remarkable until I found several more! It seems that Muslim families were using this deserted parking place as an illegal garbage dump. I was surprised that they threw away the beads. I think a devout Catholic wouldn't throw away a Rosary like that, even if it was broken.
 
Thanks for all the responses so far guys.

But does anybody know of any ill-links or reason why this would have been placed under the slabs of the front door?

That mate of mine is still claiming Exorcism.

Anybody know of any truth in that at all...
 
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