The Roswell Incident [1947]

I have to read up on the Corona crash, around the same time as Roswell.
Is there a thread on that one?
 
As I noted a few posts earlier, there were 42 crashes in 1947. Not to mention the Aztec 'crash' which supposedly happened in 1948.
JahaRa said:
If the Aztec crash is a hoax, it is a very expensive and intricate hoax. What would the purpose of hoaxing in that area be?
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I don't know why you think this hoax was particularly expensive. Indeed, it was intended to be a money-spinner for the two men who promoted it, Silas M. Newton and Leo A. Gebauer. They were eventually convicted of fraud in 1953.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec,_New_Mexico_UFO_hoax
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
I have to read up on the Corona crash, around the same time as Roswell.
Is there a thread on that one?
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No ... We don't have a separate thread dedicated to Corona. The various Corona claims are mixed in among the Roswell threads.
 
eburacum said:
As I noted a few posts earlier, there were 42 crashes in 1947. Not to mention the Aztec 'crash' which supposedly happened in 1948.

I don't know why you think this hoax was particularly expensive. Indeed, it was intended to be a money-spinner for the two men who promoted it, Silas M. Newton and Leo A. Gebauer. They were eventually convicted of fraud in 1953.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec,_New_Mexico_UFO_hoax
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Maybe you could go to Aztec and see the site. It is expensive as there is a monument, The rancher had to put up an extra fence to keep visitors from wandering around the rest of his ranch. As far as I know the only money that has been made is the 11 years the Friends of the Library held their symposium, which included a lot of other incidents and books. It took 11 years for them to earn enough money to build their new libraray. Other than that the only people who earned any money on that stroy are Scully and that guy from Colorado that wrote a book claiming people he interviewed said ... that they did not say in the 90's. So, how was it a money spinner?
 
JahaRa said:
... Other than that the only people who earned any money on that stroy are Scully and that guy from Colorado that wrote a book claiming people he interviewed said ... that they did not say in the 90's. So, how was it a money spinner?
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As Eburacum said - it was intended to be a money-spinner.

Newton and Gebauer were peddling "doodlebugs" - devices that supposedly detected underground deposits of (e.g.) oil and gold. Their sales gimmick was claiming their doodlebugs were derived from alien technology obtained from a crashed flying saucer.

They managed to reel in Denver industrialist Herman Flader, who initially invested several tens of thousands of dollars and would eventually claim to have been taken for over a quarter of a million dollars. Flader wasn't the only one ...

Each doodlebug supposedly cost around $800,000 to produce, making Flader’s $50,000 buy-in seem very modest by comparison. In exchange for this initial investment, Flader was granted partnership in GeBauer’s Colorado Geophysics & Development company, as well as the promise of long-term profits. Unsurprisingly, the device failed to perform as advertised, and the subsequent long-term payoff never materialized. Newton’s role as petroleum promoter wasn’t limited to Flader, as Dr. Alfred D. Kleyhauer, a Denver optometrist, also lost $15,000 to the scheme.
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SOURCE / FULL STORY: https://history.denverlibrary.org/news/flying-saucers-and-fraud-silas-m-newton-story

See Also:
Mysterious New Mexico: Miracles, Magic, and Monsters in the Land of Enchantment
By Benjamin Radford
https://books.google.com/books?id=40a4AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT68#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
I know you have discussed all this, but in the end, Jesse Marcel was a lieutenant colonel in the United States Air Force -
what possible reason could he have for lying after 30 years about Roswell.
And his son, Jesse Marcel Jr, who actually saw and handled some of the debris, I don't understand what his motivation could be for lying either.
 
EnolaGaia said:
As Eburacum said - it was intended to be a money-spinner.

Newton and Gebauer were peddling "doodlebugs" - devices that supposedly detected underground deposits of (e.g.) oil and gold. Their sales gimmick was claiming their doodlebugs were derived from alien technology obtained from a crashed flying saucer.

They managed to reel in Denver industrialist Herman Flader, who initially invested several tens of thousands of dollars and would eventually claim to have been taken for over a quarter of a million dollars. Flader wasn't the only one ...


SOURCE / FULL STORY: https://history.denverlibrary.org/news/flying-saucers-and-fraud-silas-m-newton-story

See Also:
Mysterious New Mexico: Miracles, Magic, and Monsters in the Land of Enchantment
By Benjamin Radford
https://books.google.com/books?id=40a4AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT68#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Lots of poetic license there, obviously the auther never went to Aztec. There is no bike trail, the dirt road going near to the site is a well road, traveled dailly by oil well workers visiting the wells, and that road existed in 1948 as well. There were improvements to that road to get heavy equipment to the site, the concrete footings still exist.
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
I know you have discussed all this, but in the end, Jesse Marcel was a lieutenant colonel in the United States Air Force -
what possible reason could he have for lying after 30 years about Roswell.
And his son, Jesse Marcel Jr, who actually saw and handled some of the debris, I don't understand what his motivation could be for lying either.
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No, he was in the Army. The Air Force did not exist yet. But your point is valid, it makes no sense that he would make the story up.
 
Maybe that is the problem in that UFOs are designed for space travel and not for our atmosphere.

I can see a lighting bolt causing a disruption in the magnetic field around the UFO.

A typical lighting bolt is 300 million volts and 30,000 Amps.

UFO witnesses describe UFOs in our atmosphere like a falling leaf back and forth not steady.
 
charliebrown said:
Maybe that is the problem in that UFOs are designed for space travel and not for our atmosphere.

I can see a lighting bolt causing a disruption in the magnetic field around the UFO.

A typical lighting bolt is 300 million volts and 30,000 Amps.

UFO witnesses describe UFOs in our atmosphere like a falling leaf back and forth not steady.
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This is what makes me think they are experimental earth vehicles. There are som many disparate reports there is no way to say they are all one thing.
 
JahaRa,

I am actually a non conformist in that I am 100% sure we are dealing with an another dimension.

We are not looking at space travel at all.
 
charliebrown said:
JahaRa,

I am actually a non conformist in that I am 100% sure we are dealing with an another dimension.

We are not looking at space travel at all.
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Ok. I can get with that program. What I have seen and experienced makes more sense from that perspective. It seems that people who believe the crashed ships can only be aliens from outer space and they have traveled through space probably are only reading books and have not had any of their own experiences. But even so, the universe is electrical so ligtning and electrical issues would be the first hazard that would have to be overcome no matter how one travels from one solar system to another.
 
charliebrown said:
Maybe that is the problem in that UFOs are designed for space travel and not for our atmosphere.
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“Here, Exploration Pilot Zzzzplurg, is the craft we have designed to enable you to travel the 100,000 lightyears to Earth. We have considered every eventuality, and prepared the ship for them!”

“What about the last 50 miles through Earth’s atmosphere?”

“Errrr…I don’t know! You’re the ****ing expert; play it by ear!”

maximus otter
 
EnolaGaia said:
Newton and Gebauer were peddling "doodlebugs" - devices that supposedly detected underground deposits of (e.g.) oil and gold. Their sales gimmick was claiming their doodlebugs were derived from alien technology obtained from a crashed flying saucer.
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This sounds surprisingly relevant to our modern era; similar frauds have been perpetuated in recent years, although without the alien connection.

The Theranos company were selling worthless 'blood testing' kits that could not detect the things they claimed,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theranos

and the Quadro Tracker, a hand-held explosives detector, was equally worthless
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29459896

A confidence trick that has been tried many times, that depends on 'the will to believe'.
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
Jesse Marcel was a lieutenant colonel in the United States Air Force -
what possible reason could he have for lying after 30 years about Roswell.
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I am perfectly prepared to accept everything Marcel Sr said about Roswell. In particular he maintained that the debris in the photos was the actual debris found at the ranch. Since the debris in the photos consists of debris from a crashed balloon train, then we must conclude that the crash was nothing more than a balloon - there is no other logical conclusion.
 
Jesse Marcel Sr. saying 'One thing I am certain of, it was not a weather balloon, or an aircraft, it was something else of which we didn't know what it was' at 00:25, speaking for a short time in an interview in the 1970's:


And Marcel stating 'he didn't know what it was' (short video):

 
I'm okay with him saying that he didn't know what it was, since it was not a weather balloon, and he was unfamiliar with Mogul balloon trains. He has accurately stated his opinion. But the photos prove that it was a Mogul balloon train, and Marcel said that the debris was not swapped.
 
And Marcel also claimed that 'it was not of this earth':

"The story begins when rancher Mack Brazel found some strange debris on his land. Maj. Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer at the Army air base in Roswell, went to investigate and was convinced that the debris was "not of this Earth."

Marcel put the strange wreckage in his car and drove it back to the base."

https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/P...razel found,car and drove it back to the base.

Marcel also said on the videos I posted above, that there 'were hieroglyphics' on some of the items which could not be read.
And he woke his wife and son to take a look at some of this debris he took away, a very strange thing to do over a dull 'weather balloon'.
 
We can see the 'heiroglyphics' in one of the photos, I think; it looks like an unidentifiable pattern of some sort.

Charles Moore, who launched the Mogul balloon train, says that they used patterned tape, although the pattern in the photo seems to be printed straight onto the balsa wood. Perhaps exposure to the desert sun has transferred the pattern to the wood somehow.

Screenshot_20220414-175009.jpg
 
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And here's a drawing made more than thirty years later, that purports to show the hieroglyphics. This image certainly resembles the pattern on that stick
beam.jpg


I note that it also roughly matches the drawing made by Moore, showing the patterns on the tape he used.
flower-ufo-patterns.jpg
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
I know you have discussed all this, but in the end, Jesse Marcel was a lieutenant colonel in the United States Air Force -
what possible reason could he have for lying after 30 years about Roswell. ...
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Ronnie Jersey said:
And Marcel also claimed that 'it was not of this earth' ...
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There's a lie right there - no matter which way you interpret it.

Was he lying about the material being "not of this earth" because - as an intelligence officer managing the professed semantics of the situation - he was inclined (or instructed) to link the debris Brazel discovered to the UFO flap in progress at the time?

OR

Was he lying in not revealing he was either omniscient or an experienced space traveler himself - the only ways he could have authoritatively claimed the materials were "not of this earth"?
 
EnolaGaia said:
There's a lie right there - no matter which way you interpret it.

Was he lying about the material being "not of this earth" because - as an intelligence officer managing the professed semantics of the situation - he was inclined (or instructed) to link the debris Brazel discovered to the UFO flap in progress at the time?

OR

Was he lying in not revealing he was either omniscient or an experienced space traveler himself - the only ways he could have authoritatively claimed the materials were "not of this earth"?
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Jesse Marcel couldn't tell the truth at the time, because he was ordered not to.
Many years later, he came forward to tell the truth.
 
The really disappointing UFO report from the Pentagon in 2021 never said yes or no.

To believe in UFOs one must think “outside of the box “ and forget what we believe is normal.

There is nothing normal about UFOs.
 
One question about Roswell, I am asking this as a genuine question and not to disparage anyone's beliefs.

I understand the debris field was spread over a considerable area and that no large 'chunks' of the flying object were discovered, so why were the supposed bodies allegedly intact and not also spread over the ranch in little pieces...? For a spacecraft to disintegrate to such an extent is evidence of huge destructive forces at work, otherwise they would have found intact seats, control panels, engine parts etc and not just some flimsy beams with hieroglyphics and some torn fabric. For example, with the tragic Challenger crash the crew compartment was found with the badly dismembered bodies inside but there was no mistaking it was a part of a space shuttle, so where was/was there a similar crew compartment at Roswell...?
 
There are so many questions that will always be attached to Roswell -
What to do with the testimony of Glenn Dennis, the mortician who claimed there were bodies found at Roswell, that he provided child-size coffins for. And Walter Haut left an affidavit to be opened after his death, stating the same, and apparently believed there were 2 crashes in the area, along with 'several bodies'. (as per wikipedia).
 
Paul_Exeter said:
One question about Roswell, I am asking this as a genuine question and not to disparage anyone's beliefs.

... so where was/was there a similar crew compartment at Roswell...?
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If by "Roswell" you mean the Brazel / Marcel debris (etc.) storyline from July 1947 the answer is a firm "No."

The first claims of alien bodies didn't emerge (in the New Mexico context of the time) until the Newton / Gebauer / Aztec hoax in 1948. The Aztec story's elements were patched onto the basic Roswell story in the 1950s to yield a narrative that appeared here and there in UFO / paranormal literature at the time.

There was a resurgence of claims about a New Mexico crash with alien bodies when the Barney Barnett story (Plains of San Agustin) surfaced 3 decades later. As happened with the Aztec story in the 1950s, the Barnett story (and / or its derivative variants) was blended into the basic Roswell story to produce multiple "two sites" theories alleging the final crash site was (e.g.) somewhere in the Corona area.
 
EnolaGaia said:
If by "Roswell" you mean the Brazel / Marcel debris (etc.) storyline from July 1947 the answer is a firm "No."

The first claims of alien bodies didn't emerge (in the New Mexico context of the time) until the Newton / Gebauer / Aztec hoax in 1948. The Aztec story's elements were patched onto the basic Roswell story in the 1950s to yield a narrative that appeared here and there in UFO / paranormal literature at the time.

There was a resurgence of claims about a New Mexico crash with alien bodies when the Barney Barnett story (Plains of San Agustin) surfaced 3 decades later. As happened with the Aztec story in the 1950s, the Barnett story (and / or its derivative variants) was blended into the basic Roswell story to produce multiple "two sites" theories alleging the final crash site was (e.g.) somewhere in the Corona area.
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Thanks for the concise answer ;)
 
Wernher von Braun supposedly said the Roswell UFO craft was in his opinion an alive entity with very few controls.

Wernher von Braun said the occupants and ship became one ( Borg like ).

Later on Bob Lazar emphasized that the UFOs he worked on were extremely simple with few controls, so I assume these UFOs are simple in design.
 
Paul_Exeter said:
One question about Roswell, I am asking this as a genuine question and not to disparage anyone's beliefs.

I understand the debris field was spread over a considerable area and that no large 'chunks' of the flying object were discovered, so why were the supposed bodies allegedly intact and not also spread over the ranch in little pieces...? For a spacecraft to disintegrate to such an extent is evidence of huge destructive forces at work, otherwise they would have found intact seats, control panels, engine parts etc and not just some flimsy beams with hieroglyphics and some torn fabric. For example, with the tragic Challenger crash the crew compartment was found with the badly dismembered bodies inside but there was no mistaking it was a part of a space shuttle, so where was/was there a similar crew compartment at Roswell...?
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That is a good question. I think we don't have all the information or any of the right information. Someone does but this was after the 1945 crash when the army was surprised and did not do anything to cover anything up until the whole thing had been cleaned up, and it was very close to the Trinity site a few weeks after the last test and before the drop on Japan. And that was visiting all the residents in the area and telling them to be quiet about it or they would be put in prison.

After that they must have had a meeting to be sure everything was swept under the rug and the Roswell one was clumsy too. In fact so clumsy it could have been a hoax to keep the Russians distracted. And none of the stories after the newspaper claimed it was a weather balloon came out until a couple of decades later, when there were different stories, a secret Project to us special weather balloons to spy on Russia (but if that were true they would have crashed in Alaska) etc.

The one in Aztec that many claim was a hoax, was less clumsily hidden, but why did the military show up hours after the sheriff was told about it. And why would some of the Navajo have a story about it that has nothing to do with anything else? The problem is that all the people who actually were there are dead.
 
I know I must be annoying to all the skeptics and non-believers, but here is a very interesting quote:

"If Marcel was standalone, then there would be some real problems here, but he is not. There are many credible witnesses — men who achieved high military rank, men and women who were prominent in their communities — who believe the craft was alien," Randle said. "We have attempted to eliminate the fakers from those who had information to provide. We have been taken in, for a time, by some of those fakers, but in the long-run it was we who investigated the case that removed many of those fakers, though based on evidence and not a belief there is no alien visitation. The point is that Marcel was backed up by other high-ranking officers and many civilians who were part of the case. Marcel told [us] what he had seen and done, and there was little embellishment in his testimony."

https://www.livescience.com/roswell-ufo-crash-what-really-happened.html

Which is why Roswell has not and will not die.

Have you discussed 'Frankie Rowe'?
 
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