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The Rotherhithe Obelisk

Victory

Justified & Ancient
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Does anyone know what this Obelisk is for?


Obelisk photo j.jpg


Rather than being an old monument for something well-known, it seems to have been made in the 1990's, when a new housing development was opened in Rotherhithe Street, London.
On the South side of the River Thames.

The Obelisk is on the Thames Path walkway, at Pageants Stairs.

(There remain in London a number of what were once about 300 named "stairs" used for access from the embankment to the river.)

The Obelisk has no inscription, neither on it nor nearby on a plaque.
The land was previously used for warehouses, timber yards and factories before it became housing 25 years ago.

Obelisks traditionally marked boundaries between authorities, the Port of London Authority has a few, but this does not seem to mark any boundary.

It lies solely within the London Borough of Southwark far from the border of the Borough, and in turn solely within The Metropolitan Borough of Bermondsey, one of it's three precursors, far from the border of that Borough, and in turn solely within No 3 Bermondsey Ward and far from any border of that ward, one of it's constituent wards.


A website called "knowyourlondon" thinks it marks a line that runs through Westferry Circus and then Canary Wharf on the North of the Thames.
It may be so, but I cannot see why such an arbitrary line would need to be marked?

https://knowyourlondon.wordpress.com/2018/07/20/pageant-stairs-obelisk/

The Obelisk can be seen from the riverside terrace of The Grapes pub in Limehouse, on the opposite North side of the river.

Rotherhithe Obelisk Georgraphics.jpg



This slightly blurred screenshot shows the Pageant Stairs Obelisk's position in relation to Westferry Circus and Canary Wharf which lie to the East on the North Side of the River..

Obelisk Map j.jpg
 
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Does anyone know what this Obelisk is for?


View attachment 45294

Rather than being an old monument for something well-known, it seems to have been made in the 1990's, when a new housing development was opened in Rotherhithe Street, London.
On the South side of the River Thames.

The Obelisk is on the Thames Path walkway, at Pageants Stairs.

(There remain a number of what were once about 300 stairs from the embankment to the river.)

The Obelisk has no inscription, neither on it nor nearby on a plaque.
The land was previously used for warehouses, timber yards and factories before it became housing 25 years ago.

Obelisks traditionally marked boundaries between authorities, the Port of London Authority has a few, but this does not seem to mark any boundary.

It lies solely within the London Borough of Southwark far from the border of the Borough, and in turn solely within The Metropolitan Borough of Bermondsey, one of it's three precursors, far from the border of that Borough, and in turn solely within No 3 Bermondsey Ward and far from any border of that ward, one of it's constituent wards.


A website called "knowyourlondon" thinks it marks a line that runs through Westferry Circus and then Canary Wharf on the North of the Thames.
It may be so, but I cannot see why such an arbitrary line would need to be marked?

https://knowyourlondon.wordpress.com/2018/07/20/pageant-stairs-obelisk/

The Obelisk can be seen from the riverside terrace of The Grapes pub in Limehouse, on the opposite North side of the river.

View attachment 45295


This slightly blurred screenshot shows the Pageant Stairs Obelisk's position in relation to Westferry Circus and Canary Wharf which lie to the East on the North Side of the River..

View attachment 45296
It appears it was built by Barrett Homes and is purely decorative.

"Pageant Steps, Housing for Barratt housing, by Lawrence & Wrightson built in 1994-5. There is a decorative obelisk at the top of the steps with no apparent purpose.

Pageant Crescent. This goes along the whole length of what was Pageant Wharf on the riverside. Gated boring development by Barratt"

https://www.layersoflondon.org/map?l=eyJmcmVlX3RleHRfcXVlcnkiOm51bGwsInNlYXJjaF9wYWdlIjoxLCJjYXRlZ29yeV9hbmRfdGVybV9maWx0ZXJzIjp7InRlcm1faWQiOm51bGwsImNhdGVnb3J5X2lkIjoxfSwiYWN0aXZlX2xheWVyX2dyb3VwX2lkcyI6W119&m=eyJjZW50ZXIiOls1MS41MDc0LDAuMTI3OF0sInpvb20iOjEwLCJsaWdodHNPdXQiOmZhbHNlfQ==&record=3626
 
Does anyone know what this Obelisk is for?

I'd suggest that it's nothing more than a decorative flourish by the people who built that housing development.

Google Earth demonstrates that it is on the centre line of the estate, and that for someone standing at the south entrance to said estate, it would provide a skyline feature to draw the eye off to the distance.

Rotherhithe-obelisk-03.jpg


The south end of this line begins at this point:

Rotherhithe-Obelisk-01.jpg


(Try as I might, I can't get Google Earth to stop at the precise point allowing the view as described above; this is the best I can do.)

So: I reckon it's nothing more than the equivalent of a Grecian urn on a pedestal, such as garden designers use at the end of long avenues to lure the viewer's eye off into the distance.

They probably meant to put a plaque on it telling the world how great Smith & Co. builders are, but the order got lost in Pay & Accounts.

maximus otter
 
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It's probably been made out of something really hard-wearing like granite, deliberately, so that in 500 years it will still be standing and future generations will have attached some kind of historical significance or Urban Legend to its existence, long after all the housing and other street furniture etc are gone.
 
It's probably been made out of something really hard-wearing like granite, deliberately, so that in 500 years it will still be standing and future generations will have attached some kind of historical significance or Urban Legend to its existence, long after all the housing and other street furniture etc are gone.
Archaeologists of the future would say it was used in dark rituals.
 
A website called "knowyourlondon" thinks it marks a line that runs through Westferry Circus and then Canary Wharf on the North of the Thames.
It may be so, but I cannot see why such an arbitrary line would need to be marked?
This slightly blurred screenshot shows the Pageant Stairs Obelisk's position in relation to Westferry Circus and Canary Wharf which lie to the East on the North Side of the River..
I noticed this possible correlation on the map. It makes me wonder whether the obelisk placement is intended to represent the intersection of the centerlines of the Westferry / Canary layout across the river and the Pageant Stairs layout.
 
There was something there at one point. The left one of the two little squares in the old photo is exactly where the obelisk is now. Not sure what it was though.
 

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Well, the area was mainly marshland until it was developed into The Surrey Docks, followed by the redevelopment into housing as it is now.
The area of the Thames there, known as Limehouse Reach, would have been plied by Thames Barges so the banks would have been lined by a series of cranes on the wharf, and the associated huts for the workers, so it could most likely have been a pair of small huts there.
 
Thanks all.

There certainly was something there before, but nothing unusual for the Docklands mid 20th century...cranes, industrial buildings, timber yards.

Like @Nosmo King and @maximus otter I think it is a decorative obelisk by Barret Homes who built the housing estate in the mid-1990's.

As such, I think it is misleading, suggesting a architectural grandeur that is not appropriate.

And a missed opportunity.
Though the views from there are spectacular, The Dickensian Grapes pub, the Limehouse Basin, the new skyscrapers at Westferry Circus,
if they wished to add something to adorn the embankment, far better to have a statue there relating to the history of the area.

There already exist a Dockers memorial at the Tower of London, and statues commenorating Dr Salter and his family in Rotherhithe by the riverside Angel pub, and a Pilgrim Fathers memorial near there too.

But a little imagination could have come up with something...even a statue of dock cranes or of one of the famous inhabitants of the area.
 
But a little imagination could have come up with something...even a statue of dock cranes or of one of the famous inhabitants of the area.
Might that get torn down by people who object to it? That seems to be fashionable right now.
 
Could it be that the obelisk was installed in anticipation of an inscription that somehow never happened or was canceled?
 
I'd suggest that it's nothing more than a decorative flourish by the people who built that housing development.

Google Earth demonstrates that it is on the centre line of the estate, and that for someone standing at the south entrance to said estate, it would provide a skyline feature to draw the eye off to the distance.

Rotherhithe-obelisk-03.jpg


The south end of this line begins at this point:

Rotherhithe-Obelisk-01.jpg


(Try as I might, I can't get Google Earth to stop at the precise point allowing the view as described above; this is the best I can do.)

So: I reckon it's nothing more than the equivalent of a Grecian urn on a pedestal, such as garden designers use at the end of long avenues to lure the viewer's eye off into the distance.

They probably meant to put a plaque on it telling the world how great Smith & Co. builders are, but the order got lost in Pay & Accounts.

maximus otter

Dear UK correspondents: Forgive my ignorance, but are these typical homes in London? Are these the council houses people write about? Are these considered townhomes, condos, or what? I think these are really nice - backing into that common garden area. This is a very different approach to housing development than commonly is seen in the US.

I'd love to live in one of these! My husband and I have been discussing for the past year what country we would move to for a couple of years or forever if our current country (USA) gets too, er, weird.
 
Certainly not council houses I would consider typical, but I'm not from the area. Rotherhithe has been transformed by the regeneration of London Dockland and when I visited a couple of years ago, I was amazed at how attractive the streets bordering the Thames are. The Mayflower Pub with a cobbled road is near Cumberland Wharf where the Pilgrim Fathers set off to the New World (stopping at Plymouth for repairs). The old warehouses to the right have kept their street-side facade but behind these are courtyards with trees with spiral staircases leading to river-side converted flats that must cost millions. I visited the beach for a spot of mud-larking and then onto the Brunel museum and Rotherhithe tunnel, the first public foot tunnel under the Thames. Walking away from the river to the Canada Waters station, the housing and their occupants becomes more 'typical' ie the original tenants before the money moved into the area.

Mayflower0451.jpg
 
Developers do stuff like that sometimes, just for decoration. Sometimes it doesn't come off so well, and sometimes it's like Enola suggested and it's never finished for whatever reason. Running out of money is high on the list. Here's the entrance to Aquarian Acres, a subdivision from back at the Dawning of the Age of Asparagus. I worked in there on some of the later houses, in the 80s, driving past this obelisk twice a day. It seems to be in pretty good shape. Looks like it may be stucco. I had forgotten how many groovy hieroglyphics were on it. Moving around it in Street View shows them well. That had to cost some money.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.015...ie-nFMEQ!2e0!5s20210701T000000!7i16384!8i8192
 
are these typical homes in London?
No not 'council houses' but I would say this style of construction is fairly typical for a property developer when they are maximising the space of a 'new build' estate these days.
'Council houses' as a term has been used as a 'catch all' term for any housing provided by a local authority in the UK.
In some areas during the 1950s and 1960s (particularly in the larger suburbs of places such as London, Birmingham and Manchester etc) a large scale construction of 'council housing' was carried out to provide a reasonable quality of affordable rental property for people that were displaced by the requirement to rebuild after WW2 bombing campaigns that destroyed large parts of London.
The 'council houses' needed to be constructed as quickly as possible and as a result were pretty much all made the same, with longer lasting, sturdy materials, but often poorly put together, with little effort over the years to maintain them properly.
This led to a huge amount of Local Authority (the council) 'housing stock' becoming costly to repair and so getting sold off to their tenants under the 'right to buy' scheme in the 1980s onwards.
Hence the term 'Council House' became a bit of disparaging remark used to describe shoddy properties with little character, often occupied by those of a lower 'class' demographic.

These days there is a requirement that 'new build' estates include a proportion of 'affordable' properties for the local authority (in other words, 'council houses') and these affordable properties are often provided for rent through a housing association.

If you really want to get a flavour of UK properties I would suggest looking at google street view for a historic market town which has seen many hundreds of years of expansion, so that you can see the property density of the town centre and the old style of building design, and then move away from the town centre in stages so that you can adjudge that against later housing developments.
St Albans is probably quite a good indication - it has an ancient town centre, surrounded by rings of development that have been added over the years.
(The last picture below is 'Oaklands Grange', one of the most recent housing developments)
1632215926232.png

churchill road.png

heath road.png
hunt close.png

oaklands grange.png
 
Council houses used to be highly desirable back in the 50's and 60's for the respectable working class. Sometimes they were built in small developments , but more often they were concentrated into large estates. Until the 60's these were mostly normal houses, but then a large number of what in the UK were called 'high rise' developments occurred. These 'blocks of flats' coupled with unfortunate changes of policy in the 70's and 80's caused a lot of council estates to become 'sink estates' and some of the worst of these are literally 'no go' arrears for outsiders.

It's something of a national tragedy that this has happened.
 
The then vogue for 70s 'brutalist' architecture didn't help either. The style leant itself to large concrete constructions which were utilitarian and ugly. They might have made good use of the space available but were quickly thought to be an eyesore, and have even been accused of causing 'sick building syndrome', in which the aesthetic qualities of the construction and the design of the surrounding spaces is responsible for many maladies afflicting those living within.
It has long been considered by many studies that the 'high rise' developments caused more problems than they solved which is why that when these places get redeveloped now they tend to go for much more spread out properties with any blocks of flats limited to just a handful of floors.
 
Also St Albans has a very old WH Smith store which first opened in 1907.

whsmith st albans.png
 
There's always a way to keep the pesky lower-orders out;
 

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Council houses used to be highly desirable back in the 50's and 60's for the respectable working class. Sometimes they were built in small developments , but more often they were concentrated into large estates. Until the 60's these were mostly normal houses, but then a large number of what in the UK were called 'high rise' developments occurred. These 'blocks of flats' coupled with unfortunate changes of policy in the 70's and 80's caused a lot of council estates to become 'sink estates' and some of the worst of these are literally 'no go' arrears for outsiders.

It's something of a national tragedy that this has happened.
I grew up in a new town in the 60s and the houses were really nice, spacious with big gardens. Most of the families were ex serviceman who had served in WW2 and the houses and gardens were really well kept.. In the 80s though most of those were sold to tenants and replaced with cheaper, less well built ones with tiny gardens.
 
My family were rehoused in 1962 as part of the East End slum clearances. We were moved into a 'maisonette' (very cockney!) on a brand new estate. My Mum thought it was a palace, which it was compared to where we used to live. However, by the early 80's it had become the normal run down council sink estate. These estates were put up with the best of intentions and solved an urgent short term need but were never going to work in the long run. It is somewhat ironic that there were prefabs that outlived some tower blocks!
 
No not 'council houses' but I would say this style of construction is fairly typical for a property developer when they are maximising the space of a 'new build' estate these days.
'Council houses' as a term has been used as a 'catch all' term for any housing provided by a local authority in the UK.
In some areas during the 1950s and 1960s (particularly in the larger suburbs of places such as London, Birmingham and Manchester etc) a large scale construction of 'council housing' was carried out to provide a reasonable quality of affordable rental property for people that were displaced by the requirement to rebuild after WW2 bombing campaigns that destroyed large parts of London.
The 'council houses' needed to be constructed as quickly as possible and as a result were pretty much all made the same, with longer lasting, sturdy materials, but often poorly put together, with little effort over the years to maintain them properly.
This led to a huge amount of Local Authority (the council) 'housing stock' becoming costly to repair and so getting sold off to their tenants under the 'right to buy' scheme in the 1980s onwards.
Hence the term 'Council House' became a bit of disparaging remark used to describe shoddy properties with little character, often occupied by those of a lower 'class' demographic.

These days there is a requirement that 'new build' estates include a proportion of 'affordable' properties for the local authority (in other words, 'council houses') and these affordable properties are often provided for rent through a housing association.

If you really want to get a flavour of UK properties I would suggest looking at google street view for a historic market town which has seen many hundreds of years of expansion, so that you can see the property density of the town centre and the old style of building design, and then move away from the town centre in stages so that you can adjudge that against later housing developments.
St Albans is probably quite a good indication - it has an ancient town centre, surrounded by rings of development that have been added over the years.
(The last picture below is 'Oaklands Grange', one of the most recent housing developments)
View attachment 45379
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View attachment 45381View attachment 45382
View attachment 45384

Trevp666 (and others) - thanks for the explanation and especially the photos! Amazing capture of evolving changes. The homes in UK seem to be, on the whole, in better shape than the ones in the US. The US has its own versions of council homes, but I don't want to further the distraction I started from the main point of this thread.

Onward obelisks! Onward!!!
 
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