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The Sandby Borg Massacre

Speaking as an archaeologist, it's an attempt to step back from preconceptions. Sometimes changing language means that is easier. :) why is that bullshit?
I think the BCE/CE thing is nonsense because the count is the same, counting from the same point, so it is just papering over its origin, which is BC/AD. Just use the same letters and get on with it.
 
The Normans (i.e. "North men") were Vikings.
Just Vikings who had appropriated Gallic language and culture.

ooooooooh! I love this stuff!:oldm:

It's like Grandpa's axe! If the Vikings intermarried and appropriated Gallic language and culture, are they still vikings?

With bikes I think it's the frame. With peoples I am not so sure.
 
I think the BCE/CE thing is nonsense because the count is the same, counting from the same point, so it is just papering over its origin, which is BC/AD. Just use the same letters and get on with it.

If being polite costs nothing and nothing is changed retrospectively, why not make a change which aids scholarship?

@Xanatic*

Sure, change to a different year 0 if you will.

I'm afaid you've lost me. I don't see how this arises from BC/AD and BCE/CE?
 
If being polite costs nothing and nothing is changed retrospectively, why not make a change which aids scholarship?

@Xanatic*



I'm afaid you've lost me. I don't see how this arises from BC/AD and BCE/CE?
How does this aid scholarship?
 
You go from having some meaningful labels to waffle words. That's for politics, not science. If you want something else, pick the moon landing or a supernova as the starting point for counting.
 
The Vikings were something of an enigma.
They kicked the Franks' arses and carved off the portion of Gaul which became Normandy, but readily adopted the Frankish/Gallic language and culture.
Of all the colonial powers that invaded Britain, they were probably the least benign.

They weren't much fun in Ireland either, my review of a book about them.

Life In Medieval Ireland: Witches, Spies and Stockholm Syndrome by Finbar Dwyer
C-format, paperback | 232pp | ISBN: 9781848407404 | Release Date: June 2019 €11.95.


This is a popular history of Norman Ireland covering the period between the late twelfth and fourteenth centuries. It is a story of dispossession of the native Irish by arriving Norman colonists, of alliances, backstabbing, wars, famine and plague. There never was a truly peaceful period as the Normans engaged in Civil War and Ireland was invaded by Edward the Bruce. The dispossessed Gaels retreated to their mountain fastnesses but often emerged to slaughter the invaders and burn towns.

But there is much of interest to Forteans as well. We have feuding Franciscans killing each other in a fracas between Anglo-Norman and Gaelic Irish Friars at a meeting in Cork in 1291, maybe someone passed the mead the wrong way around the table. Fighting clerics were not unusual in Ireland at the time as the Hospitaller Order in Dublin often sent warrior monks into the Wicklow mountains to subdue Irish raiders.

The Knights Templar were also powerful in Norman Ireland controlling ports and access to inland waterways. Their immediate access to ships may have allowed some members of the order to escape (with treasure no doubt) when they were suppressed in Ireland as no ships are listed among the items seized by Royal Officials. The accused faced a panel of Three Dominican and Two Franciscan judges in a trial that lasted for six months. No verdict is recorded and the Templar Brothers were eventually released and given a stipend of two pence a day. Better than burning at the stake as so many of their Brethern did elsewhere.

Times of famine resulted in cases of cannibalism. In 1295 the poor of Dublin were reported to have eaten the bodies of executed prisoners. On 27 June 1331 the people of Dublin were saved from starvation when several hundred whales beached themselves at the mouth of the Liffey. There are no reports of anyone trying to save the whales (other than salting down their remains).

Tales of witch trials usually resulted in the execution of servants rather than any person of status. Alice Kyteter who had four husbands die in suspicious circumstances came close to facing the gallows/stake but connections saved her.

Heresy trials in some cases came about due to the marrying of old Gaelic beliefs with Christianity. A mythical Irish hero Aedh Eanghach would save the Irish, but he gained his powers from Mother Nature.A reaction to the Christian Church supporting the Norman Invaders. For preaching such a creed, Adam Dubh O’Toole was burned at the stake in Dublin in 1328. The heresy continued to gain currency as two more men were burned at the stake in 1353 at Bunratty by order of the Bishop of Waterford.

An entertaining popular history based on surviving records than myths. 8/10.
 
Why is something meaningful to more people less meaningful than somehting only meaningful to some people? er... if you see what I mean :)

You do know that the counting isn't affected? 1 AD = 1BCE? there isn't any shift there, apart from the labels. So I don't understand why the moonlanding or somehting else is relevant.
 
That's not bad for ?1307. Mind you I've probably got the sums wrong.... 240 d to the pound in England at that date, no idea in Ireland!

Normans & the First Irish Mints (12th Century)

The arrival of the Anglo-Normans in 1169 brought dramatic change to Ireland. The most notable change? The ceding of power to the English crown – the currency from this period reflects this shift.

Under King John, Irish coins were minted in locations like Kilkenny, Limerick and Carrickfergus. They were easily distinguishable from their English equivalents. Not only were their weights and designs different, a triangle (rather than a circle) outlined the reigning monarch’s head.

https://remitr.com/blog/history-of-currency-in-ireland/


Finally its important to note most of these foods were far beyond the purchasing power of the poor. In 1344, a ploughman earned about five shillings a year which was equivalent of sixty pence. From the prices below you can see he could not have afforded most items. Two pounds of figs cost four pence, two cooked pies cost three pence, a salmon cost eighteen pence, almonds and rice cost four pence while a capon two pence.

All prices and foods are taken from Mills, J. (1996) The Account Roll of the Priory of the Holy Trinity Dublin Four courts press Dublin.

https://irishhistorypodcast.ie/food/
 
Meaning in the sense of being accurate and precise, not in the sense of having some emotional resonance.
 
Meaning in the sense of being accurate and precise, not in the sense of having some emotional resonance.

BC and AD /do/ have a negative emotional resonance for a significant number of the people I've worked with over the last 60 years.

Perhaps that is the issue - neutral tends to mean fits with my own paradigms. It can be very difficult to step furth of those paradigms and the change to BCE and CE is part of that effort. And of course BCE/CE is now part of my own paradigms - which is the point. Nothing is neutral, especially language. An ability to change your paradigm makes you a better practitioner.
 
How does this aid scholarship?
Any historical dating system needs a year zero. Inevitably, this is in a sense arbitrary, although it makes sense to tie it to a universally understood event.

When looking at things that happened millions of years ago, we say "BP" which is "Before the Present". The present is advancing very slowly compared to a timescale of millions of years. 3–5 million years BP will still mean pretty much the same in 500 years' time.

However, BP doesn't work for recent history; you would have to update the history books every year or two. Instead you need a datum, and that means some dates will be before and some are after the datum.

When setting up any system or standard, it is wise to look at what is already in established use. There are thousands of history books extant with dates linked to before or after the nominal estimated date of the birth of Jesus. Ask any Englishman the date of the battle of Hastings, or any American the date of the declaration if independence, and they will give the same number. Changing all those numbers to relate to a new datum would serve no useful purpose, and cause confusion.

However, that does not mean that it is good for scholarship to assume that the whole world accepts the Christian world view. 69% of people in the world reject it or at least do not accept it.

AD is from Latin ( a dead western European language) and refers to Jesus as "Lord", which most of us do not believe to be the case. In some countries, openly referring to Jesus as Lord, or the son of God, might be blasphemous, and in others it may simply not be understood.

The sensible compromise is to keep the numbers, but to use a designation (BC/BCE) that does not carry any cultural baggage or make any assumptions. Regardless of their cultural backgrounds or religious beliefs, scholars can agree to use a common numbering system, and to use the existing datum, but that does not mean that they must feel comfortable with "Before Christ" (we are still in the time before Christ to a Jew) or Anno Domini (no Muslim —1/4 of the world's population — or Hindu, or Sikh or Buddhist, or atheist, would call Jesus "Lord").

So BC/BCE is imperfect, but a sensible compromise: a simple change rather than a major one. That is why it has gradually become more common over the last 400 years.

A problem with any historical scholarship is the covert assumption that one's own culture is somehow the norm and that everyone else's is assessed by how it relates to ours. In my own case, I went through school and learned in detail about the battles of Crecy, Poiters and Agincourt (English victories) but was never told that we lost the 100 years war. I learned nothing about Chinese history, and the only things I learned about American history related to when "we" discovered America, and when eventually we lost the colony.

Any change that takes students away from this assumption that our own local cultural worldview is the starting point for understanding world history must surely be helpful for scholarship.
 
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Any historical dating system needs a year zero. Inevitably, this is in a sense arbitrary, although it makes sense to tie it to a universally understood event.

When looking at things that happened millions of years ago, we say "BP" which is "Before the Present". The present is advancing very slowly compared to a timescale of millions of years. 3–5 million years BP will still mean pretty much the same in 500 years' time.

However, BP doesn't work for recent history; you would have to update the history books every year or two. Instead you need a datum, and that means some dates will be before and some are after the datum.

When setting up any system or standard, it is wise to look at what is already in established use. There are thousands of history books extant with dates linked to before or after the nominal estimated date of the birth of Jesus. Ask any Englishman the date of the battle of Hastings, or any American the date of the declaration if independence, and they will give the same number. Changing all those numbers to relate to a new datum would serve no useful purpose, and cause confusion.

However, that does not mean that it is good for scholarship to assume that the whole world accepts the Christian world view. 69% of people in the world reject it or at least do not accept it.

AD is from Latin ( a dead western European language) and refers to Jesus as "Lord", which most of us do not believe to be the case. In some countries, opening referring to Jesus as Lord, or the son of God, might be blasphemous, and in others it may simply not be understood.

The sensible compromise is to keep the numbers, but to use a designation (BC/BCE) that does not carry any cultural baggage or make any assumptions. Regardless of their cultural backgrounds or religious beliefs, scholars can agree to use a common numbering system, and to use the existing datum, but that does not mean that they must feel comfortable with "Before Christ" (we are still in the time before Christ to a Jew) or Anno Domini (no Muslim —1/4 of the world's population — or Hindu, or Sikh or Buddhist, or atheist, would call Jesus "Lord").

So BC/BCE is imperfect, but a sensible compromise: a simple change rather than a major one. That is why it has gradually become more common over the last 400 years.

A problem with any historical scholarship is the covert assumption that one's own culture is somehow the norm and that everyone else's is assessed by how it relates to ours. In my own case, I went through school and learned in detail about the battles of Crecy, Poiters and Agincourt (English victories) but was never told that we lost the 100 years war. I learned nothing about Chinese history, and the only things I learned about American history related to when "we" discovered America, and when eventually we lost the colony.

Any change that takes students away from this assumption that our own local cultural worldview is the starting point for understanding world history must surely be helpful for scholarship.
I would slightly change your wording:

"Any change that takes students away from this assumption that their own local cultural worldview is the starting point for understanding world history must surely be helpful for scholarship."

I always thought that the updated BC meant Before Current, not Before Common. Duh.

In the US about 35 years ago, in different academic disciplines, but especially archeology and anthropology, academic publications from China appeared which started changing the dates, not the nomenclature of the dates, to represent the falsehood that everything civilized started with the Asian Middle Kingdom. So, for example, if something was invented in non-China 1000 years ago, the Chinese claimed it was invented in China 2000 years ago. For a short time (2-3 years?) this was so pervasive, across different fields, that I concluded it was centrally orchestrated. After vigorous opposition by non-Chinese academics, this slowly died out. WTF. Now, I doubt anyone except retired university professors even remember this. I was only aware of this because of university affiliations, especially in the social sciences.

Edited for grammar
 
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Joseph Needham claimed the Chinese invented everything.

As far as I know, no one has disagreed.
 
Joseph Needham claimed the Chinese invented everything.

As far as I know, no one has disagreed.
I hereby disagree :)
... and so does wiki - that infallible source of ...something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Needham

Edited: His Big Question could be asked about several politically organized civilizations that never got to the industrial revolution. I have wondered the same thing about the Ottoman Empire.
 
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I've worked with two people who worked on years since the founding of the Temple* first and did a running calculation if needed.

* @Victory have I got that right? It's a long couple of decades ago!

I guess there are people who do that, but it is not a common thing for Jews as far as I know.

We are in the year 5783 in our calendar, which dates from the beginning of when Adam and Eve were created.
The day of that is the festival of Rosh Hashonah, the first day of the month of Tishrei.

It is not as simple as that though, as the Sun and Moon did not exist from the beginning of "time", so there is a simultaneous allowance for many billions of years to be included in/alongside those 5783 years.

The birthday of the universe is therefore the 25th of the month of Elul, which is six days before Rosh Hashonah.
These first "days", it is almost certainly that not all of them were days in the sense of 24 hour long periods of time.
 
I always thought they were called the dark ages due to the lack of documentary evidence after the withdrawal of the Roman empire... general ignorance of the political make-up of sub-Roman Britain, who its leaders were etc.

As a slight aside, one rare piece of documentary evidence from the Dark Ages is still proving useful today.
A 9th Century Anglo-Saxon remedy found in Old English manuscript Bald's Leechbook, comprising garlic, onion or leeks, wine and cow bile, has been found to wipe out MRSA and may be effective against other "superbugs".

leech.png


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-32117815
 
Back in the dark ages, when violence prevailed and life was more often than not, nasty, brutish and short, it never fails to amaze me how some people could still devote large amounts of their precious time to creating beautiful jewellery and other artefacts.
Yes, you'd think that just growing enough food would take up all their time.
 
Back in the dark ages, when violence prevailed and life was more often than not, nasty, brutish and short, it never fails to amaze me how some people could still devote large amounts of their precious time to creating beautiful jewellery and other artefacts.
And having no electric light, their days were very short!!
 
And having no electric light, their days were very short!!
Well into the "modern" age.

Link below is an excellent look at how our ancestors viewed night and I don't think we realise how dark our countryside was even 100 years ago. Don't forget lattitude as well, longer days in summer and shorter ones in winter are more noticable in the UK and Northern Europe than in most of the USA. (Well not Alaska!):roll:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/At-Days-Close-History-Nighttime/dp/0753819406
 
Well into the "modern" age.

Link below is an excellent look at how our ancestors viewed night and I don't think we realise how dark our countryside was even 100 years ago. Don't forget lattitude as well, longer days in summer and shorter ones in winter are more noticable in the UK and Northern Europe than in most of the USA. (Well not Alaska!):roll:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/At-Days-Close-History-Nighttime/dp/0753819406
Our days in northern NJ are very short in the wintertime, it's already dark at 5:00 pm, and still dark at 7:00 a.m.
During the summer, sunset is 8:30 - 9:00 pm.
They must have started cooking dinner early in the morning back in those days, so they could get the pots & pans washed before dark!
And how on earth did they wash their clothes, my husband said they used to boil them!
 
Our days in northern NJ are very short in the wintertime, it's already dark at 5:00 pm, and still dark at 7:00 a.m.
During the summer, sunset is 8:30 - 9:00 pm.
They must have started cooking dinner early in the morning back in those days, so they could get the pots & pans washed before dark!
And how on earth did they wash their clothes, my husband said they used to boil them!
And they had to start the sprouts for Christmas Dinner in September. :)
 
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