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Anonymous
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Before The Puddy On A Stick
Because afterwards...nothing sounds the same..
:sob:
Because afterwards...nothing sounds the same..
:sob:
The SCOLE Experiment
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- 1993 apports books david fontana grant solomon in pursuit of physical mediumship jane solomon mediums & mediumship montague keen physical mediumship professor arthur ellison professor david fontana ralph noyes robin foy seances spirit photography the new spiritual scientist the paranormal the scole experiment the scole report the society for psychical research trances
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Anonymous
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Just for some background...
It's stated in their book that Robin Foy is a former RAF pilot who went on to become a manager in a paper company.
I will assume that this is the job he had quit in order to pursue the "experiments".
It's stated in their book that Robin Foy is a former RAF pilot who went on to become a manager in a paper company.
I will assume that this is the job he had quit in order to pursue the "experiments".
A
Anonymous
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Just checking.. :err:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Ooh Page 13, 13 ! Thiiiiiirteeeeeeeennnn!
:devil:
Hi, I'm the Devil. I'm taking some time out of my busy schedule of possessing twelve year old girls, appearing vague and whispy in the clouds above The Twin Trade Towers 9/11, and recording my voice backwards in Heavy Metal albums to talk to you, yes YOU, The Fortean Times Message Board Parapsychology Thread / The Scole Group.
There's been alot of funny talk about Scole, and a few unkind remarks about those who participated. Some of them may have been gullible, but they all took part in good faith, and are smashing blokes.
Take ' Slider ' for example ~ who wouldn't want a good feel of human flesh ?
After all, he's mad for the drink, and who doesn't get a bit chummy after a night on the sauce ??
And as far as being stuck in a different time ? Tell me about it ! I've got a red face and pointy horns ! Christ ! It's soooo medieval ; I know what it's like feeling like a time-turd in a space-jacuzzi ! Not good. Who can blame them for trying to get back to their own time ? So, hey - let's be a little understanding..
Okay, that's about it from me. But remember, entities may not be entirely well-rounded, three-dimensional personalities..but they DO have feelings !
Sympathy from the Devil,
The Devil :devil:
Christ ! I really should get a new passport photo !
Hmmm..?
:goof:
:devil:
Hi, I'm the Devil. I'm taking some time out of my busy schedule of possessing twelve year old girls, appearing vague and whispy in the clouds above The Twin Trade Towers 9/11, and recording my voice backwards in Heavy Metal albums to talk to you, yes YOU, The Fortean Times Message Board Parapsychology Thread / The Scole Group.
There's been alot of funny talk about Scole, and a few unkind remarks about those who participated. Some of them may have been gullible, but they all took part in good faith, and are smashing blokes.
Take ' Slider ' for example ~ who wouldn't want a good feel of human flesh ?
After all, he's mad for the drink, and who doesn't get a bit chummy after a night on the sauce ??
And as far as being stuck in a different time ? Tell me about it ! I've got a red face and pointy horns ! Christ ! It's soooo medieval ; I know what it's like feeling like a time-turd in a space-jacuzzi ! Not good. Who can blame them for trying to get back to their own time ? So, hey - let's be a little understanding..
Okay, that's about it from me. But remember, entities may not be entirely well-rounded, three-dimensional personalities..but they DO have feelings !
Sympathy from the Devil,
The Devil :devil:
Christ ! I really should get a new passport photo !
Hmmm..?
:goof:
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Your devilish pretentions have caused a hellish glitch that robbed me of my FT-bots! No new post notification for me, the first I knew that people had posted here was when a pointed spirit light appeared on my screen and clicked the relevant "favourites" entry.
Anyway, I think we all agree that the solution to the Scole case is "puddy on a stick."
Dots of light? Puddy on a stick!
A poke in the ass? Puddy on a stick!
Grasping spirit hands? Hand-shaped puddy on a stick!
Spirit voices? Someone whispering about puddy on a stick!
Well what about -
PUDDY ON A STICK! PUDDY ON A STICK! AREN'T YOU LISTENING?! IT'S ALL PUDDY ON A F#CKING STICK!!
I need to lie down, I feel unusual.
Anyway, I think we all agree that the solution to the Scole case is "puddy on a stick."
Dots of light? Puddy on a stick!
A poke in the ass? Puddy on a stick!
Grasping spirit hands? Hand-shaped puddy on a stick!
Spirit voices? Someone whispering about puddy on a stick!
Well what about -
PUDDY ON A STICK! PUDDY ON A STICK! AREN'T YOU LISTENING?! IT'S ALL PUDDY ON A F#CKING STICK!!
I need to lie down, I feel unusual.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2002
- Messages
- 586
A guy with a scheme to make bread
Pretended to summon the dead
And with help from a buddy
Flicked luminous puddy
At guests who'd paid 10 quid a head
I'll get me coat...
A
Anonymous
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:smokin:
Stop bogarting that joint Desperado.
Since Innis is a lawyer and all.
Knowing what we do know, I wonder how this case would fare in trial court.
Would the mediums be convicted of fraud like Helen Duncan was some 50 years ago?
There were eye-witnesses who testified in her defense as well. If the readers of this thread were the jury, I suspect these mediums would suffer the same fate.
PS - Kudos to Nick for laying it all out there. I have to respect a man who has the balls to publicly defend his beliefs even when they seem obsurd to rest of us.
Stop bogarting that joint Desperado.
Since Innis is a lawyer and all.
Knowing what we do know, I wonder how this case would fare in trial court.
Would the mediums be convicted of fraud like Helen Duncan was some 50 years ago?
There were eye-witnesses who testified in her defense as well. If the readers of this thread were the jury, I suspect these mediums would suffer the same fate.
PS - Kudos to Nick for laying it all out there. I have to respect a man who has the balls to publicly defend his beliefs even when they seem obsurd to rest of us.
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But are they luminous?
I'll leave you with that slightly disturbing thought, as I need to be up before midday tomorrow and need my sleep.
Life's a bitch.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Scole charges
Found the file on Scole charges, Guys. I don't have the seminar fees, but the rest were:
Annual sub. to The Spiritual Scientist (4 issues) £10
Booklet Guide £6.75 incl. P&P
Energised crystals - single ones £3-£5 each + P&P
Energised crystals - clusters £20-£30 each + P&P
Glass Domes - £55-£144 each, incl. P&P (payable to The New Spiritual Science Foundation)
Found the file on Scole charges, Guys. I don't have the seminar fees, but the rest were:
Annual sub. to The Spiritual Scientist (4 issues) £10
Booklet Guide £6.75 incl. P&P
Energised crystals - single ones £3-£5 each + P&P
Energised crystals - clusters £20-£30 each + P&P
Glass Domes - £55-£144 each, incl. P&P (payable to The New Spiritual Science Foundation)
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2002
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- 36,446
- Location
- East of Suez
Re: Answers to more questions AND the Star Trek reference
Did we miss a 'only joking' smile here perhaps?
Anyway, more importantly:
Here, interestingly, is where we hit upon a central problem: Do such ostensibly psychical phenomena need to be proved or disproved? Its that old dichotomy of traditional empirical inductivism vs conjectures and refuations. Are we concerned, primarily, with amassing enough information to 'legally' infer that the superatural hypothesis is true, or conversely, is it wise to 'work' with such a conjecture until such time as it may be dismissed as inaccurate or unhelpful by damning evidence. In my opinion these differing approaches polarise 'believers' and 'unbelievers' (for want of clearer divisions) to such a degree that their arguments often fail to 'mesh' as they are working within different paradigms of 'truth'.
Loosely speaking, those, like Nick, who have personally experienced such stunning phenomena (term used neutrally), are more inclined to be struck with its immediate veracity to such a degree that their challenge to others is, understandably, that evidence must be found to disprove their experience. In contrast those who have not 'experienced' or have seen previous cases of fraud tend (again understandably) to ask of protagonists evidence to prove what is claimed.
Lost the whole 'puddy' thing
Good chatting people,
Nick Kyle said:
Did we miss a 'only joking' smile here perhaps?
Anyway, more importantly:
Innes Smith said:
Here, interestingly, is where we hit upon a central problem: Do such ostensibly psychical phenomena need to be proved or disproved? Its that old dichotomy of traditional empirical inductivism vs conjectures and refuations. Are we concerned, primarily, with amassing enough information to 'legally' infer that the superatural hypothesis is true, or conversely, is it wise to 'work' with such a conjecture until such time as it may be dismissed as inaccurate or unhelpful by damning evidence. In my opinion these differing approaches polarise 'believers' and 'unbelievers' (for want of clearer divisions) to such a degree that their arguments often fail to 'mesh' as they are working within different paradigms of 'truth'.
Loosely speaking, those, like Nick, who have personally experienced such stunning phenomena (term used neutrally), are more inclined to be struck with its immediate veracity to such a degree that their challenge to others is, understandably, that evidence must be found to disprove their experience. In contrast those who have not 'experienced' or have seen previous cases of fraud tend (again understandably) to ask of protagonists evidence to prove what is claimed.
Lost the whole 'puddy' thing
Good chatting people,
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- East of Suez
Re: Scole charges
Spiritual Scientists? Bunch of oxymorons mate!
Joking aside, it is a shame that any money has to be involved as it muddies the waters but i don't think we are talking huge amounts here just enough for tea, biscuits, books and rent. If you're gonna defraud anyone try Iron Rod Randi and his million dollars not 20 squid for a crystal.
Nick Kyle said:
Spiritual Scientists? Bunch of oxymorons mate!
Joking aside, it is a shame that any money has to be involved as it muddies the waters but i don't think we are talking huge amounts here just enough for tea, biscuits, books and rent. If you're gonna defraud anyone try Iron Rod Randi and his million dollars not 20 squid for a crystal.
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Anonymous
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Are we in a Scole Hole ?
Dear All,
Is there any merit in taking stock of what we've learned about Scole so far ?
And what would be the best way forward ?
I hope Nick continues to contribute, and also elaborates on his experiences..
But if we're going to make any progress, then I think the best person to seek out is the aforementioned 'magician' who contributed to the SPR investigation. If hoax is the best alternative explanation to the paranormal one, then the testimony of the magician will be most helpful. It is one thing to sit in a cellar and be astonished by the effects ; it is an entirely different matter to sit in a cellar and look for trickery.
Let's hope Mintrap can work his 'networking' magic and summon this fellow to our thread.
The JFK Assassination has " The Grassy Knoll " ; Scole has " Puddy on a Stick " . Let's hear from a Puddy & Stick expert - especially one who was there !
[ Actually, in Glasgow, we have a famous ( and very old ) Magic Shop called 'Tam Sheperds'. It's run by a gentleman called Roy Walton, who is a world class card magician - I shall speak to him tomorrow about faking physical mediumship. I wonder if he, or somebody he recommends, would be willing to enter into a debate about what is, and what is not, possible to fake. ]
If we treat Nick & Monty Keen's testimony as our source, then how far would our magician get before he, or she, admitted that the effect could not be achieved by trickery alone ?
Just a thought.
Keep up the Good Work !
Regards,
Innes
P.S - Nick, thanks for the financial details. Financial gain as a motive for Scole can only be established if we have all the facts...and I think it's unlikely that Robin Foy will disclose the details of his personal finances to a dodgy semi-anonymous discussion group.
Oh well.. we shall just have to let the innuendo linger in the air...
Dear All,
Is there any merit in taking stock of what we've learned about Scole so far ?
And what would be the best way forward ?
I hope Nick continues to contribute, and also elaborates on his experiences..
But if we're going to make any progress, then I think the best person to seek out is the aforementioned 'magician' who contributed to the SPR investigation. If hoax is the best alternative explanation to the paranormal one, then the testimony of the magician will be most helpful. It is one thing to sit in a cellar and be astonished by the effects ; it is an entirely different matter to sit in a cellar and look for trickery.
Let's hope Mintrap can work his 'networking' magic and summon this fellow to our thread.
The JFK Assassination has " The Grassy Knoll " ; Scole has " Puddy on a Stick " . Let's hear from a Puddy & Stick expert - especially one who was there !
[ Actually, in Glasgow, we have a famous ( and very old ) Magic Shop called 'Tam Sheperds'. It's run by a gentleman called Roy Walton, who is a world class card magician - I shall speak to him tomorrow about faking physical mediumship. I wonder if he, or somebody he recommends, would be willing to enter into a debate about what is, and what is not, possible to fake. ]
If we treat Nick & Monty Keen's testimony as our source, then how far would our magician get before he, or she, admitted that the effect could not be achieved by trickery alone ?
Just a thought.
Keep up the Good Work !
Regards,
Innes
P.S - Nick, thanks for the financial details. Financial gain as a motive for Scole can only be established if we have all the facts...and I think it's unlikely that Robin Foy will disclose the details of his personal finances to a dodgy semi-anonymous discussion group.
Oh well.. we shall just have to let the innuendo linger in the air...
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Anonymous
Guest
It should be noted that James Webster, the magician named by Montegue Keen, would be considered by the skeptics on this thread to be a "believer".
He's actually written a book on the paranormal and has a web site.
Here's a brief autobiography.
http://www.jamesw.clara.net/about.htm
It would be interesting to hear from him but I suspect that anything he said would be taken with a grain of salt by the hard-core skeptics.
I think it would also be interesting to get the opinion of a magician who is a "non-believer".
He's actually written a book on the paranormal and has a web site.
Here's a brief autobiography.
http://www.jamesw.clara.net/about.htm
It would be interesting to hear from him but I suspect that anything he said would be taken with a grain of salt by the hard-core skeptics.
I think it would also be interesting to get the opinion of a magician who is a "non-believer".
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Anonymous
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I just sent off an email to Mr. James Webster requesting that he visit this thread and offer his personal account.
I hope that he obliges.
I hope that he obliges.
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MindTrap - of course he was a believer! Only believers were invited! Everyone was pre-selected. And when there was the possibility that a critic might want to get in on the act - e.g. the media - they were immediately excluded.
There's just too much evidence against Scole to even consider that it might be genuine. IMO the lights and pyrotechnics have no real bearing on the case; all that's left is anecdotes from pre-selected, non-critical believers who think that they can explain every magic trick on God's earth. All video and film that could possibly have proved the case one way or the other has... what was it? ... spontaneously degenerated. What a joke. What a crock.
OK, I admit it might be of interest to hear what professional magicians and illusionists make of this, but for me it's over. If someone looks at the evidence and can't see the con then that's their problem. As far as I'm concerned, even if the medium group hired an advertising plane and flew it over my house with the message SCOLE IS A BIG CON trailing behind it I couldn't be more convinced.
And if I seem slightly irritated, that's because I am. OK, if people are dumb enough to spend their hard earned on psychic crystals and cake bowls then that's fine. But it's this constant barrage of absurd claims and obviously hoaxed scenarios, unwitting re-inforced by those desperate to validate their beliefs, that bunch all Forteans together as "kooks" and "weirdos" and "gullible fools". Is it any wonder that science as a whole has no place for paranormal studies?
Only believers were invited! Everyone was pre-selected. And when there was the possibility that a critic might want to get in on the act - e.g. the media - they were immediately excluded.There's just too much evidence against Scole to even consider that it might be genuine. IMO the lights and pyrotechnics have no real bearing on the case; all that's left is anecdotes from pre-selected, non-critical believers who think that they can explain every magic trick on God's earth. All video and film that could possibly have proved the case one way or the other has... what was it? ... spontaneously degenerated. What a joke. What a crock.
OK, I admit it might be of interest to hear what professional magicians and illusionists make of this, but for me it's over. If someone looks at the evidence and can't see the con then that's their problem. As far as I'm concerned, even if the medium group hired an advertising plane and flew it over my house with the message SCOLE IS A BIG CON trailing behind it I couldn't be more convinced.
And if I seem slightly irritated, that's because I am. OK, if people are dumb enough to spend their hard earned on psychic crystals and cake bowls then that's fine. But it's this constant barrage of absurd claims and obviously hoaxed scenarios, unwitting re-inforced by those desperate to validate their beliefs, that bunch all Forteans together as "kooks" and "weirdos" and "gullible fools". Is it any wonder that science as a whole has no place for paranormal studies?
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Anonymous
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Yithian, Puddy on down !
I quite agree that these " oh no you didn't " v " oh yes I did " arguments to be quite pointless.
I brought up the differing approaches to illustrate how much we had learned ( if anything ), or had established ( or could establish ) through our queries on this thread.
I suppose we can approach the paranormal from three positions ; scientifically, legally, and as a folklore study ( i.e - it doesn't matter if it's true, or real, but what might it mean ?? ). Oh, there's another approach, especially considering the amount of times 'mass sociogenic illness', or 'hallucination' is offered as an explanation for odd experiences - the medical approach.
The Fortean way, I suppose, is to consider all positions..with a sense of humour and..
:_pished: but of course...
As a psychic investigator, one also has to approach a paranormal account as a counsellor - it will not be helpful to the person sharing his or her story to respond with scientific rigour, or dismiss them as an incredible ( or discredited ) witness.
" I concieve of nothing, in religion, science or philosophy.." ~you know the rest.
"Puddy" is, I assume, the American word for Putty ; and it was suggested, seriously by some, and facetiously by others, that luminous puddy/putty on a stick was responsible for the light phenomena at Scole.
Re: Randi ~
I wonder what contols and conditions James Randi would put on his investigation of an alleged paranormal event ?
I only ask, because if repeatability were one of them, then how many times would he ask for the demonstation, until he could explain it ?
There are many processes in nature which are not fully understood, yet are cheerily accepted as ..natural. I expect even if Randi were stumped, he'd say " Oh Yeah, there's definately misdirection and sleight of hand going on here, I know it - just give me time to work out the particulars..."
For Randi, there is no paranormal. It doesn't happen because it can't happen.
Spiritual Science ? I think Richard Dawkins is a zealous defender of the 'Faith', as much as any religious fanatic. For him Science removes all doubt ; there is no doubt - only ignorance.
Whatever you may think of The Scole Group, they certainly managed to stimulate debate..and still do!
Regards,
Innes
Gloriously
I quite agree that these " oh no you didn't " v " oh yes I did " arguments to be quite pointless.
I brought up the differing approaches to illustrate how much we had learned ( if anything ), or had established ( or could establish ) through our queries on this thread.
I suppose we can approach the paranormal from three positions ; scientifically, legally, and as a folklore study ( i.e - it doesn't matter if it's true, or real, but what might it mean ?? ). Oh, there's another approach, especially considering the amount of times 'mass sociogenic illness', or 'hallucination' is offered as an explanation for odd experiences - the medical approach.
The Fortean way, I suppose, is to consider all positions..with a sense of humour and..
:_pished: but of course...
As a psychic investigator, one also has to approach a paranormal account as a counsellor - it will not be helpful to the person sharing his or her story to respond with scientific rigour, or dismiss them as an incredible ( or discredited ) witness.
" I concieve of nothing, in religion, science or philosophy.." ~you know the rest.
"Puddy" is, I assume, the American word for Putty ; and it was suggested, seriously by some, and facetiously by others, that luminous puddy/putty on a stick was responsible for the light phenomena at Scole.
Re: Randi ~
I wonder what contols and conditions James Randi would put on his investigation of an alleged paranormal event ?
I only ask, because if repeatability were one of them, then how many times would he ask for the demonstation, until he could explain it ?
There are many processes in nature which are not fully understood, yet are cheerily accepted as ..natural. I expect even if Randi were stumped, he'd say " Oh Yeah, there's definately misdirection and sleight of hand going on here, I know it - just give me time to work out the particulars..."
For Randi, there is no paranormal. It doesn't happen because it can't happen.
Spiritual Science ? I think Richard Dawkins is a zealous defender of the 'Faith', as much as any religious fanatic. For him Science removes all doubt ; there is no doubt - only ignorance.
Whatever you may think of The Scole Group, they certainly managed to stimulate debate..and still do!
Regards,
Innes
Gloriously
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Anonymous
Guest
"unwitting re-inforced by those desperate to validate their beliefs"
I hope you are not referring to me because I do not feel this way at all. I do not consider myself desperate to validate their beliefs in any way. A matter of fact I find the evidence for fraud very compelling and am leaning toward that side (leaning because fraud has yet to be proven). If Innis and myself were not playing devil's advocate on this thread then I doubt anyone would have the nerve to do it.
But that's besides the point. I find this discussion very entertaining and have an open mind to the possibilities. I believe that I myself have experienced paranormal events in my life (certainly nothing on par with the claims of the Scole group) and am open to the possiblity that our current level of scientific understanding does not adequately explain reality beyond our basic senses.
That being the case I consider myself open-minded. You'll read that as "believer" I'm sure. Life isn't that black and white my friend.
Lighten up. Kick back and have a drink. :_pished:
I hope you are not referring to me because I do not feel this way at all. I do not consider myself desperate to validate their beliefs in any way. A matter of fact I find the evidence for fraud very compelling and am leaning toward that side (leaning because fraud has yet to be proven). If Innis and myself were not playing devil's advocate on this thread then I doubt anyone would have the nerve to do it.
But that's besides the point. I find this discussion very entertaining and have an open mind to the possibilities. I believe that I myself have experienced paranormal events in my life (certainly nothing on par with the claims of the Scole group) and am open to the possiblity that our current level of scientific understanding does not adequately explain reality beyond our basic senses.
That being the case I consider myself open-minded. You'll read that as "believer" I'm sure. Life isn't that black and white my friend.
Lighten up. Kick back and have a drink. :_pished:
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Anonymous
Guest
""Puddy" is, I assume, the American word for Putty ; and it was suggested, seriously by some, and facetiously by others, that luminous puddy/putty on a stick was responsible for the light phenomena at Scole."
Well, puddy is obviously not technically a word, but it is often used (incorrectly I might add) in the States in place of the word putty. A silly typo on my part. That'll teach me to read and edit my messages before posting.
Hehe. Good stuff though. Puddy on a stick. Gotta love it!
Well, puddy is obviously not technically a word, but it is often used (incorrectly I might add) in the States in place of the word putty. A silly typo on my part. That'll teach me to read and edit my messages before posting.
Hehe. Good stuff though. Puddy on a stick. Gotta love it!
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Anonymous
Guest
Desperado,
If it's any consolation I don't think you're a 'kook' or a 'gullible fool'. However, you're obviously a 'weirdo'.
:gaga:
And, who are you accusing of being a gullible fool ? If by that you mean anyone that went to Scole, then I do think you're being a tad uncharitable..
I would have gone, and I'm sure if you had a chance, you would have too. And maybe, just maybe, you may have been as astonished as Nick ; remember he used the term 'awesome' ? You might have been so impressed, that you would have dismissed fraud immediately - and then been frustrated later on that you hadn't wrestled Robin Foy to the floor shouting, " Hand over your f**king Puddy Stick you Fraudster !! " And then years later, we would be listening to your testimony and stroking our collective goatee beards and scribbling ' delusional' in our psychiatrists' notepad !
It's possible. People do behave strangely under strange circumstances ( as a student of the Paranormal I'm sure you will doubtless recall numerous examples ).
So, Senior - You are so right to raise your all-too-reasonable concerns, and express your own opinion that Scole was a big fat fraud, but a little respect & restraint ! There are no 'kooks' or 'gullible fools' here !
Be good. Or you'll get a Stick up yer Puddy ! :blah:
Fondest regards,
Innesmada " Be Pure - Be Vigilant - Behave "
Rocketman !
If it's any consolation I don't think you're a 'kook' or a 'gullible fool'. However, you're obviously a 'weirdo'.
:gaga:
And, who are you accusing of being a gullible fool ? If by that you mean anyone that went to Scole, then I do think you're being a tad uncharitable..
I would have gone, and I'm sure if you had a chance, you would have too. And maybe, just maybe, you may have been as astonished as Nick ; remember he used the term 'awesome' ? You might have been so impressed, that you would have dismissed fraud immediately - and then been frustrated later on that you hadn't wrestled Robin Foy to the floor shouting, " Hand over your f**king Puddy Stick you Fraudster !! " And then years later, we would be listening to your testimony and stroking our collective goatee beards and scribbling ' delusional' in our psychiatrists' notepad !
It's possible. People do behave strangely under strange circumstances ( as a student of the Paranormal I'm sure you will doubtless recall numerous examples ).
So, Senior - You are so right to raise your all-too-reasonable concerns, and express your own opinion that Scole was a big fat fraud, but a little respect & restraint ! There are no 'kooks' or 'gullible fools' here !
Be good. Or you'll get a Stick up yer Puddy ! :blah:
Fondest regards,
Innesmada " Be Pure - Be Vigilant - Behave "
Rocketman !- Joined
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Now come on people, I was making commentry on all Fortean phenomena in their entirety, not related to people posting here or Scole or anything else specific - as well you know! 
You're right there. :devil: It's one of the longest yet least well represented threads (in terms of different people) I've ever seen here.
In my mind, I grab your face and point it towards my previous post, as with a kitten who's soiled the carpet, and cry "That's not what I said! Read it! Read it!"
I would have been astonished alright. "A hundred quid for a f#cking cake bowl! What, are you nuts!"
And why does this forum suddenly only allow 5 smilies per post?
You're right there. :devil: It's one of the longest yet least well represented threads (in terms of different people) I've ever seen here.
In my mind, I grab your face and point it towards my previous post, as with a kitten who's soiled the carpet, and cry "That's not what I said! Read it! Read it!"
I would have been astonished alright. "A hundred quid for a f#cking cake bowl! What, are you nuts!"
And why does this forum suddenly only allow 5 smilies per post?
A
Anonymous
Guest
I'd just like to ask that those who are incapable of being objective on this subject show some restraint and a little bit of respect for the witnesses that contribute.
I've asked Mr. Webster to contribute his observations and opinion on this event but you must realize that he doesn't have to do anything. He doesn't have to subject himself to scorn, and why should he. I hope that he will but understand why he may not want to.
And no Desperado that doesn't mean that he's a lying gullible fool. It just means that he has no interest in convincing you of anything. Why should he? He's apparently found what he was looking for.
I've asked Mr. Webster to contribute his observations and opinion on this event but you must realize that he doesn't have to do anything. He doesn't have to subject himself to scorn, and why should he. I hope that he will but understand why he may not want to.
And no Desperado that doesn't mean that he's a lying gullible fool. It just means that he has no interest in convincing you of anything. Why should he? He's apparently found what he was looking for.
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For the last time: Please point me at the place where I accuse ANYBODY - let alone a contributor here - of being a "lying gullible fool", because it seems to have passed me by. Or even the place where I call someone simply "a gullible fool". What I said, in plain English, is that absurd claims, when made frequently enough, are the reason that Forteans get classed as "gullible fools". If you want to get all hysterical then fine, but don't expect me to keep on repeating what I've already plainly stated over and o-v-e-r again.
And what's this "lying" part anyway? As we've only had two contributors - Mr Keen and Nick - and on both occasions I have taken pains to explain that I don't for a moment believe either are lying, this also appears to be something you've made up.
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Anonymous
Guest
It was implied.
I did recieve a response from Mr. Webster and he had read the last page but I think he got the impression that I was baiting him into an arguement based on the tone of the messages.
At any rate I explained to him that we were just curious as to his opinion with regards to the phenomenon since he was a professional Magician and all. He said that he'd get around to reading the rest of the thread and I hope that he contributes with his story.
To understand where I'm coming from I suggest you try to get James Randi to contribute to this thread and then you'll have an idea.
I did recieve a response from Mr. Webster and he had read the last page but I think he got the impression that I was baiting him into an arguement based on the tone of the messages.
At any rate I explained to him that we were just curious as to his opinion with regards to the phenomenon since he was a professional Magician and all. He said that he'd get around to reading the rest of the thread and I hope that he contributes with his story.
To understand where I'm coming from I suggest you try to get James Randi to contribute to this thread and then you'll have an idea.
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Anonymous
Guest
Replying to Mindtrap's questions
Mindtrap, as to my opinion on the survival vs. super-psi debate, I’d rather not take sides, because both positions have something to offer. At the risk of being consigned to pseuds’ corner again, the problem with adversarial approaches is that weaker points of view are usually dismissed, even if they are of value. I prefer consensus building.
Hmmff! Sitting on the fence, I hear you say, so_ if push came to shove_ I’m a survivalist. Why? Because of my own communication with ‘spirit.’ It's a personal subjective experience rather than something that I can present for argument. Mind you, I’m still struggling to devise a way of communicating after death that would ‘prove’ survival and not merely support super-psi. Edward de Bono would call both terms porridge words, that is they seem to say something, until you examine them in detail, then they become stodgy…puddy-like.
As for the character of those in the Scole Group, if I had something dreadful to say here, I’d also be liable to be sued. However, I can state that all 4 of them seemed to be genuine and I do not think that any of them would be interested in hoaxing. I particularly liked the Bennetts, who were modestly staying in the background when they attended the SPR Study Day, but I only have the briefest of chats to form surface impressions. They continue to attend spiritualist meetings and they sit in circle (just as a couple, possibly).
Robin Foy gave a slight impression of being a self-publicist, in his seminar presentations and, of course, his autobiography. On the other hand, he does have one fantastic story to tell! Monty Keen is clear that the Scole Group were never caught in a single act of deception of any kind during the years spent studying them. The only word of warning that I was given about the Scole phenomena came from a leading member of the Noah’s Ark Society (NAS), who would probably prefer to remain anonymous. He said not to trust Robin Foy because he (the speaker) knew “too much about him.” I put this down to jealousy or a history of bad feeling on other matters and the speaker had never taken part in a sitting at Scole. Does anyone know exactly what the NAS have to complain about?
It is unfortunate that Robin appears to have given up the Scole experiments. Continued phenomena, especially under controlled lighted conditions might have had startling implications for Science and our world view - but I doubt it – the pattern of past positive studies is that they get ignored.
Incidentally, Monty Keen has been studying another group who were producing similar phenomena consistently under stricter controls, but before you all e-mail him for invites, it’s stopped meeting too. Robin is now head of an organization promoting health technology. He feels that he has 'moved on' with his life.
As far as I am concerned, the Scole members were pleasant and hospitable and…extraordinary in what they were able to do. It is my view and that of my companions that the motivations of the Scole Group were honourable. I would go back to any similar sittings, but my dearest wish is that the group would improve their advice and support to other groups sitting for physical phenomena. I'll be starting another one in Scotland soon (I hope). Will keep you all posted.
Mindtrap, as to my opinion on the survival vs. super-psi debate, I’d rather not take sides, because both positions have something to offer. At the risk of being consigned to pseuds’ corner again, the problem with adversarial approaches is that weaker points of view are usually dismissed, even if they are of value. I prefer consensus building.
Hmmff! Sitting on the fence, I hear you say, so_ if push came to shove_ I’m a survivalist. Why? Because of my own communication with ‘spirit.’ It's a personal subjective experience rather than something that I can present for argument. Mind you, I’m still struggling to devise a way of communicating after death that would ‘prove’ survival and not merely support super-psi. Edward de Bono would call both terms porridge words, that is they seem to say something, until you examine them in detail, then they become stodgy…puddy-like.
As for the character of those in the Scole Group, if I had something dreadful to say here, I’d also be liable to be sued. However, I can state that all 4 of them seemed to be genuine and I do not think that any of them would be interested in hoaxing. I particularly liked the Bennetts, who were modestly staying in the background when they attended the SPR Study Day, but I only have the briefest of chats to form surface impressions. They continue to attend spiritualist meetings and they sit in circle (just as a couple, possibly).
Robin Foy gave a slight impression of being a self-publicist, in his seminar presentations and, of course, his autobiography. On the other hand, he does have one fantastic story to tell! Monty Keen is clear that the Scole Group were never caught in a single act of deception of any kind during the years spent studying them. The only word of warning that I was given about the Scole phenomena came from a leading member of the Noah’s Ark Society (NAS), who would probably prefer to remain anonymous. He said not to trust Robin Foy because he (the speaker) knew “too much about him.” I put this down to jealousy or a history of bad feeling on other matters and the speaker had never taken part in a sitting at Scole. Does anyone know exactly what the NAS have to complain about?
It is unfortunate that Robin appears to have given up the Scole experiments. Continued phenomena, especially under controlled lighted conditions might have had startling implications for Science and our world view - but I doubt it – the pattern of past positive studies is that they get ignored.
Incidentally, Monty Keen has been studying another group who were producing similar phenomena consistently under stricter controls, but before you all e-mail him for invites, it’s stopped meeting too. Robin is now head of an organization promoting health technology. He feels that he has 'moved on' with his life.
As far as I am concerned, the Scole members were pleasant and hospitable and…extraordinary in what they were able to do. It is my view and that of my companions that the motivations of the Scole Group were honourable. I would go back to any similar sittings, but my dearest wish is that the group would improve their advice and support to other groups sitting for physical phenomena. I'll be starting another one in Scotland soon (I hope). Will keep you all posted.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2002
- Messages
- 586
My aim is to oblige. Email duly sent and awaiting reply. Though if Mr Randi does read this thread I can't imagine what he'll make of the puddy on a stick. :eek!!!!:
I am available for any FREE sitting in the UK, or any situation where repeatable phenomena is claimed and absurd rules not enforced. Somehow, though, I think my socio-psychic diary will remain just as empty as Mr Randi's.
Nick - I appreciate what you say, and your views are your own. Just be aware that successful hoaxers and fraudsters are ALL of pleasant and believable demeanour, else they wouldn't be successful in the first place.
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Anonymous
Guest
True enough.
It seems that Robin Foy himself was the founder of the Noah's Ark Society but you will find no mention of that on their site. It seems that he was asked to leave this organization by the spirit communicators at Scole (which he did). Apparently there is quite a bit of animosity between Mr. Foy and the NAS for some reason as they have done nothing but criticize the proceedings.
Mr. Keen sent a letter to the NAS (which is published in the latest issue of their newsletter) inquiring about this very thing but the editor managed to dodge this question in his response. I'm not convinced that this contention between the two groups is really significant.
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Anonymous
Guest
Good deal!
I have been reading this thread with great interest and wanted to put in my feelings about it. I have no personal connection to the case, but I am sure like many others, would like to know the stories behind the story.I am glad that those witnesses connected to Scole are coming forward to give accounts as it may help to give a wider picture of what really went on. I also feel these witness should be allowed to put forward their accounts without feeling they are putting themselves up for ridicule or being patronised, implied or not. If we are not able to have access to this information, this thread can not really move forward can it?
There is still a long way to go before any real conclusion can (if ever) be reached.
Myself,personally, I am still sitting on the fence!
There is still a long way to go before any real conclusion can (if ever) be reached.
Myself,personally, I am still sitting on the fence!
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Anonymous
Guest
Hehe..
Desperado is just angry that people aren't lining up to accept his prejudiced assumptions.
Hey Nick, I'd give that seance thing a shot. What the hell. I'd probably have to start swimming now though. It's a long way to Scotland.
Desperado is just angry that people aren't lining up to accept his prejudiced assumptions.
Hey Nick, I'd give that seance thing a shot. What the hell. I'd probably have to start swimming now though. It's a long way to Scotland.
A
Anonymous
Guest
aahhh, The Fortean Fence ...
Bonjour !
The Fortean Fence is a comfortable place to be, for we are cushioned by a hearty sense of humour. Although Fort's humour was often of the acerbic wit variety, he reserved his mockery for ropey theories and dodgy explanations, not attacking the actual witness accounts - and we would do well to remember this.
There is no shame on not passing judgement until all the facts are in ; and if it is unlikely that all the facts will ever be in, then so be it !
It is not just paranormal events that present us with a challenge to our ability to interpret 'the facts' ; history does a pretty good job of presenting us with a bewildering choice of possibilities.
I don't think anyone will ever know what happened in Dallas, Texas, November the 22nd, 1963 - there are simply too many competing versions of events, and a bewildering array of 'facts', 'evidence' and 'proof'.
Who's going to tell the witnesses at Dealey Plaza that they were gullible, kooks or liars ?
They were just reporting what they saw.
Desperado - I appreciate that you were not accusing anyone directly of being gullible, etc.. but you were implying that anyone who didn't think as you would be regarded as so ! Which was crafty as it was cheeky !
So, let's hope that we can entice as many participants and witnesses to the events at Scole to come forward, and hopefully we'll learn something new.
But we should take the witness accounts seriously ; I still find it hard to believe that hoax is a reasonable explanation for the complicated and 'awesome' phenomena described by Nick.
I'm not saying hoax isn't possible, or Scole therefore was definitely a playground for extradimensional entities : I'm simply admitting to my lack of understanding.
I hope that this thread will continue to unravel, and lead us in an interesting direction !
More from the witnesses please !
Regards,
Innes
P.S - We do owe Desperado our thanks for ensuring that debate rolls merrily/violently along ~ the only problem is that some witnesses will be slightly nervous about joining a discussion which is so...adversarial.
Heated debates are much more fun in the pub ! If there is a general willingness within this thread to join a physical mediumship group, then why not combine it with hard drinking ? I know that traditionally within Spritualist circles in the west, alcohol is looked down upon. But in shamanic traditions around thew world drugs are seen as important or essential ingredients to the 'otherworldly process of getting in touch'. A completely rat-arsed circle would do much to create a feeling of jollity, and also make any success we have to be seriously questionable ( just like Scole ! ) ~ so maybe we that's the recipe for success ?? Deniability. Reality can't admit to such shocking excesses as tiny ufo's or levitation, so they are cloaked in suspicious circumstances which will guarantee posterity's raised eyebrow.
Weirdness = Unbelievability.
Unbelievability = Weirdness.
That's why I think seances do what they do - it's that dodgy shyness effect. Want reality to do the impossible ? First create the unbelievable !
I'll get started ...
Bonjour !
The Fortean Fence is a comfortable place to be, for we are cushioned by a hearty sense of humour. Although Fort's humour was often of the acerbic wit variety, he reserved his mockery for ropey theories and dodgy explanations, not attacking the actual witness accounts - and we would do well to remember this.
There is no shame on not passing judgement until all the facts are in ; and if it is unlikely that all the facts will ever be in, then so be it !
It is not just paranormal events that present us with a challenge to our ability to interpret 'the facts' ; history does a pretty good job of presenting us with a bewildering choice of possibilities.
I don't think anyone will ever know what happened in Dallas, Texas, November the 22nd, 1963 - there are simply too many competing versions of events, and a bewildering array of 'facts', 'evidence' and 'proof'.
Who's going to tell the witnesses at Dealey Plaza that they were gullible, kooks or liars ?
They were just reporting what they saw.
Desperado - I appreciate that you were not accusing anyone directly of being gullible, etc.. but you were implying that anyone who didn't think as you would be regarded as so ! Which was crafty as it was cheeky !
So, let's hope that we can entice as many participants and witnesses to the events at Scole to come forward, and hopefully we'll learn something new.
But we should take the witness accounts seriously ; I still find it hard to believe that hoax is a reasonable explanation for the complicated and 'awesome' phenomena described by Nick.
I'm not saying hoax isn't possible, or Scole therefore was definitely a playground for extradimensional entities : I'm simply admitting to my lack of understanding.
I hope that this thread will continue to unravel, and lead us in an interesting direction !
More from the witnesses please !
Regards,
Innes
P.S - We do owe Desperado our thanks for ensuring that debate rolls merrily/violently along ~ the only problem is that some witnesses will be slightly nervous about joining a discussion which is so...adversarial.
Heated debates are much more fun in the pub ! If there is a general willingness within this thread to join a physical mediumship group, then why not combine it with hard drinking ? I know that traditionally within Spritualist circles in the west, alcohol is looked down upon. But in shamanic traditions around thew world drugs are seen as important or essential ingredients to the 'otherworldly process of getting in touch'. A completely rat-arsed circle would do much to create a feeling of jollity, and also make any success we have to be seriously questionable ( just like Scole ! ) ~ so maybe we that's the recipe for success ?? Deniability. Reality can't admit to such shocking excesses as tiny ufo's or levitation, so they are cloaked in suspicious circumstances which will guarantee posterity's raised eyebrow.
Weirdness = Unbelievability.
Unbelievability = Weirdness.
That's why I think seances do what they do - it's that dodgy shyness effect. Want reality to do the impossible ? First create the unbelievable !
I'll get started ...