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I'm working hard at this Shamanic Initiation thing....
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Desperado is just angry that people aren't lining up to accept his prejudiced assumptions.
Right, that's enough from all of you. I quote this post as an example - most of the major players in this thread are getting sidetracked into questioning one another's objectivity and motives, and it's not really contributing to the debate at all.MindTrap said:Hehe..
Desperado is just angry that people aren't lining up to accept his prejudiced assumptions.
And, for the record, Desperado has not implied that anyone is a gullible fool. He's a good, impartial poster. Now back off and stick to the point.
A woman who experimented with a Ouija board had been experiencing classic bedroom visitations of a dark man.
I think we may be grinding to a halt unless we can get some fresh info from persons in the know, living or dead.
[MindTrap],
I understand your position and appreciate that you would categorize yourself as a "believer". Sceptics come in various forms and flavours. The hard-core sceptic, best known as a debunker (e.g. magician James Randi) will not accept anything as "paranormal" - the word does not seem to exist in their vocabulary. Then there are the professionally paid sceptics, the like of Dr. Richard Wiseman, Dr. French and Dr Susan Blackmore who are often employed by the media to make certain that they project something, however obscure, to "explain" an alleged paranormal event or experiment. This is not always in accord with their own private thoughts on the matter, but only what they are paid for to present to the public at large. These types would be a complete waste of time attending such as The Scole Experiments for the obvious reasons I have outlined.
The other group of sceptics are those, myself included, who research with a careful attitude and with a healthy scepticism, and look first for all possible explanations to a supposed "paranormal event". Often those in this group have had some personal unexplained phenomena occurring in their life to set them thinking. Certainly those in this important group were invited to sit with The Scole Group. I and my wife sat three times with them. I cannot speak on behalf of The Scole Group as to who exactly was invited, but I do know that scientists and SPR members were included as well as other professionals and academics. Apart from that I can only speak for myself and what I experienced and witnessed.
My credentials include a career in the medical profession as a qualified Podiatrist, fifty years researching into the paranormal and survival (life after death) and a number of years spent as a professional stage magician and entertainer with the qualifications of:
Member of The International Brotherhood of Magicians, member of The Magic Circle and Assoc. member of The Inner Magic Circle with Silver Star. I also write and lecture on all these subjects and recently published a book "LIFE IS FOREVER" and am in the process of writing a further book.
I will now reply to other questions arising in your email letter:
1. You stated: 'the crazy means in which the sittings concluded'. This does not cast doubt on the proceedings, in my opinion, and can be compared with other cases of paranormal phenomena. A case in point I followed up in recent years after reading the book 'The Vertical Plane' by Ken Webster (no relation but it was discovered that we were both full members of The Scientific & Medical Network). It would take far too long to go into details here, but briefly it was an amazing case of phenomena which took place in an old cottage being renovated in the village of Dodleston Cheshire on the Welsh border in the 1980's. A BBC television documentary was made. I interviewed those concerned who were involved with the poltergeist and other bizarre activity which took place over a period of about two years. Communications allegedly coming from an entity from the 16th Century in what seemed to be a 'time warp' through an early BBC "B" type computer (difficult to bug) was a feature of the phenomena. Eventually there was "interruption" from another source coming from what appeared to be the future ("2109") and things became even more bizarre to the point that everything was forced to stop with an unsatisfactory conclusion. Those concerned were brought into the situation quite unwillingly and it caused much disturbance to their already busy academic life as teachers at a grammar school.
This whole subject is alien to orthodox and textbook science and physics which cannot provide the "strait and tidy" conclusions and answers you and most would like. It does not fit neatly into that pattern. "Crazy" can mean "misunderstood".
Thankfully physics is getting into quantum mechanics and sub-atomic research which will, I am sure, open the doors.
2. You stated: 'no verifiable evidence was produced that couldn't have been fraudulently produced'. As a stage magician/conjuror, I could not have convincingly replicated what I witnessed under the same strict conditions applied and I would challenge anyone else, professional magician or not, to do so with myself to witness, rather than they criticise from the sidelines.
I will not go so far as to say that it was beyond the scope of fraud ( I am a healthy sceptic not a gullible) as quite obviously there is the problem with manifestation in darkness and safe infra-red video filming would be a great asset in séances as I have always maintained. But I can say that the amount of light from the orbs (spirit/energy lights) and other phenomena did create a certain amount of energised light to counteract complete and total darkness. I would also add, if anyone in that group was able to perform the phenomena by fraud and trickery then they were wasting their time with such pranks and artistry with little reward. They could do themselves proud with fame and fortune in the World of Entertainment.
3. You stated: 'the fact that sitters were charged for the privilege'. I was never charged at Scole where the group normally met and sat, and to my knowledge sitters were invited without charge. A charge obviously had to be made when a seminar was held at a conference centre/hotel etc. to include cost of accomodation, meals etc.. and as far as I am aware any profits went to the Foundation to help and inform others and disseminate knowledge about life after death, healing etc.
My actual personal experiences with The Scole Group have been published and I can provide references to these if required.
I hope and trust that the forgoing will provide something of value. There is a great deal I could go into with this whole matter but it would take much space!
As a final thought, I share the opinion and optimism of Sir William Crookes who, when asked to explain how the psychic, D.D. Home, managed his feats, retorted: 'I didn't say it was impossible, I said it happened!'
With best regards
James Webster
MindTrap said:A snip from Mr. Webster's reply :
Communications allegedly coming from an entity from the 16th Century in what seemed to be a 'time warp' through an early BBC "B" type computer (difficult to bug) was a feature of the phenomena. Eventually there was "interruption" from another source coming from what appeared to be the future ("2109") and things became even more bizarre to the point that everything was forced to stop with an unsatisfactory conclusion.
From our very own archives: Are fiends electric? - good, if succinct overview of the Dodleston saga.TVgeek said:WOW! Thats the stuff I love to read -- anyone
have any further info on this case?!?
TVgeek
Innes Smith said:And in regard to Mr. Neville & MR. Geek :
The most paranormal part about the Dodleston Case was the involvement of The BBC Computer. Even in it's day it was the most archaic late medieval P.C - Could Ken have borrowed an Atari 800 ?? At least the communicators could have had a decent game of Pac-Man ( which would have been very apt ).
Dear Innes and All
You will have to forgive me for not going into full details of the three sittings I had with The Scole Group as it would be too lengthy and time filling here. I am trying to get another book written and all in all I am kept very busy and try to avoid being drawn into anything of an inquisitional nature. There is obviously a mixture of people on this site, some genuine and keen to want to find out in a serious sense whilst others prefer to make some kind of fun and entertainment from the subject. I have no time for those with retarded intelligence e.g. debunkers, paid professional sceptics and gullible fools. And so for the benefit of those, who like myself have a serious investigating mind, I will respond as follows to the questions posed to me by Innes Smith:
1. What exactly did Mr. Webster witness at Scole?
The table vibrated with energy. Loud knocks were heard from various parts of the room (cellar) and from under chairs. Small bells hanging just above me from the ceiling started to ring. Voices were heard. A ping-pong ball raced around in a bowl on the table after which a cup of ash was found deposited in the bowl. Apports appeared. Various entities spoke through the mediums.
I was particularly impressed with the energy lights (small balls/orbs of light) which displayed in a variety of movements. They were tangible and I watched them and could feel them dancing on my fingertips and hovering just inches in front of my eyes. I watched as one of them travelled down my body to my shoes on the floor. One bounced up and down on the table and we could plainly hear it tapping, and then suddenly it went straight through and out the other side to repeat it again. It was truly fascinating and there is more I could report on this phenomena.
I received some fine A1 evidence from my maternal grandfather (in the spirit world) through the lady medium. Something personal to me which had only occurred the previous day and I had not even told Shirley (my wife) about it.This was stunning evidence to both of us. We also received other fine evidence of a personal nature at these séances. So it was not just physical mediumship that took place, but evidence of survival from friends and family communicating.
It is difficult to convey this to a third party. One really had to be there to witness and experience it at first hand.
2. (a) How much of what he witnessed could have been faked and (b) how much was way beyond the abilities of even the most expert and well-equipped illusionist?
Answer to (a) All, part or nothing. (b) Not beyond the most expert, or myself for that matter!
That is the short answer but in my opinion, with respect to my experience and judgment of such, I maintain that under the conditions , regulations and purposes of these séances, nothing was or was required to be faked and I would not have attempted to replicate the "performance" under such terms. Also I would ant to be a witness to any sceptic, magician or not, willing to attempt it. How about James Randi having a go??
3. Did he look for hoaxing/fraud? i.e. Did he sometimes not focus on the phenomena but concentrate on what the mediums
were up to?
I am always looking out for possible hoaxing and fraud. I work like a detective in my research and investigation using my physical senses as well as my non physical sensitivity as I have the added advantage of a fair degree of psychic and mediumistic
awareness. I had known Robin and Sandra Foy from the early days (1991) of the Noah's Ark Society of which I was a member for seven years.
4. How bright was the light phenomena? Did it illuminate the surrounding walls?
No it was not bright enough to light up the cellar walls. But just consider that the cellar was quite small with a single door which was locked closed, and with 13 adult persons and a table plus a small table for the tape recorder beside Robin, it was like a tin of sardines and for anyone to attempt to get up and move around would have been precarious to say the least and a feat in itself!
Fluorescent tabs were placed on each corner of the table and similar were also attached to the arms and legs of the mediums before we entered the cellar.
5. As someone within the magical fraternity, are any of the Scole Group known locally as amateur magicians? Has Robin Foy ever been spotted at the local magic trick shop or the local hologram emporium?
What a lovely one! This brought a big grin to my face
I am sure I would have been one of the first to know about it if it had been so. If any of them had been capable of this or even half the talent in the art of magic and deception for so little reward and for so long, what a waste when they could have their name in lights in the "glitzy world of showbusiness"! So eat your heart out James Randi ... you are no match!!
Remember fact is often stranger than fiction.
Best regards
James Webster
There is obviously a mixture of people on this site, some genuine and keen to want to find out in a serious sense whilst others prefer to make some kind of fun and entertainment from the subject...
I have no time for those with retarded intelligence e.g. debunkers