The Second World War / World War Two

Swifty

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gerhard1

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Same as Mytho .. I remember watching it as a nipper and being impressed, that's going to be one epic viewing binge gerhard1 ..
Quite so.


As an aside, my sister in law has complied quite a bit research on WWII glider pilots. Her late father was one and was in Operation Varsity, and also possibly Market Garden.
 

Dr_Baltar

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For those who don't know, The World at War is usually on pretty much a constant loop on the Yesterday channel in the UK.
 

Yithian

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The Bomber

"White moon setting and red sun waking.
White as a searchlight, red as a flame
Through the dawn wind her hard way making.
Rhythmless, riddled, the bomber came.

Men who had thought their last flight over,
All hoping, gone, came limping back.
Marvelling, looked on on bomb-scarred Dover.
Buttercup fields and white Down track.

Cottage and ploughland, green lanes weaving,
Working-folk stopping to stare overhead-
Lovely, most lovely, past all believing
To eyes of men new-raised from the dead."​

-Beatrice R. Gibbs.
 

Yithian

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I shared with Yith a few days ago that I am off to Belgium soon to visit the places my Grandfather was stationed during 1939/1940. I'm so looking forward to the adventure.
I'm very jealous. I've had a standing invitation to visit Cassino to and see what my father's division went through there, but time and distance have conspired against me.
 

Yithian

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I shared with Yith a few days ago that I am off to Belgium soon to visit the places my Grandfather was stationed during 1939/1940. I'm so looking forward to the adventure.
Forgot to say--make sure you post a shed-load of pictures for us here.
 

Ringo

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Sure thing. I hope I find something worth photographing.
 

Yithian

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A costume designer has turned up today on my other virtual haunt (ww2talk.com) researching Second World War-era costumes for a new BBC drama.

It looks promising:

BBC1 to make epic Second World War drama called World on Fire
The A Word and Marvellous writer Peter Bowker will script the seven-part series which will tell the human story from both sides of the conflict, to mark 80 years since the start of World War Two

By Ben Dowell
Wednesday, 4th October 2017 at 11:00 am

World on Fire will focus on the human stories of the war, beginning with the German invasion of Poland in September 1939 and ending with the Battle of Britain in 1940.

The drama will be produced by Victoria and Poldark producers Mammoth Screen.

“World on Fire tells the hidden human stories within the big historical events we think we know,” said writer Bowker. “From Harry, a young English translator in Warsaw caught up in negotiations with the Nazis and trying to smuggle his Polish lover Kasia out of the country, to Lois, the girl who is waiting for him at home, a young Mancunian factory worker who will come to take all the opportunities the war can offer to live a different kind of life. To Nancy, a female US war correspondent who can’t find peace unless her life is at risk, to the Rossler family in Berlin, worried for their soldier son and willing to do anything to protect their disabled daughter from the attentions of the ruling Nazi regime.”

He continued, “These are the stories of the ordinary people who shaped our world. Stories of loyalty and brutality, courage and fear, hopes, stories of love and loss, hopes and dreams forged in extraordinary times.”

Damien Timmer, Mammoth Screen Managing Director, added, “Our aim is to tell a properly epic, deeply characterful and intensely adrenalised story, shot through with Pete’s characteristic irreverence and humanity. A drama that pieces together the story of World War Two from the inside, that traces the connections between allies and enemies, an epic story told on a human scale.”

The drama was announced today by Piers Wenger, Controller of BBC Drama, who said of the series: “Eighty years on from the start of World War Two, Pete Bowker deploys his unique talent for creating utterly relatable and vividly drawn characters to tell the story of one of the great tipping points in twentieth century history, drawing us gradually and deftly into the creeping horror of the outbreak of war.”

Filming will commence next year in locations in the UK and across Europe for a likely broadcast in 2019, the 80th anniversary of the start of the war.

NEWS OF OTHER PRODUCTIONS SNIPPED:
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2017-10-04/bbc1-world-on-fire/
 

maximus otter

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Hitler had to have existed, and has to be believed to have been capable of surviving, or today’s telly would be seven minutes of news, a three-minute weather forecast, then 7:50 of hands throwing pots on wheels.

It’s fortunate that other, left-wing, monsters like Stalin, Mao, Saddam, Ceaușescu and so on have so many documentaries made about them in order to fill out the TV schedules.

:tumble:

maximus otter
 

Megadeth1977

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Hitler had to have existed, and has to be believed to have been capable of surviving, or today’s telly would be seven minutes of news, a three-minute weather forecast, then 7:50 of hands throwing pots on wheels.

It’s fortunate that other, left-wing, monsters like Stalin, Mao, Saddam, Ceaușescu and so on have so many documentaries made about them in order to fill out the TV schedules.

:tumble:

maximus otter
Hitler was not left wing.
 

Naughty_Felid

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1. Debatable.

2. "Other COMMA left-wing COMMA monsters..."

maximus otter
I'd be interested to hear your argument that by the height of his power how Hitler was "left-wing"?

I never took the principal of Führerprinzip to be particularly egalitarian or in fact his attempted annihilation of the Jews, Romanies, Learning Disabled etc to be egalitarian either.

My understanding was that he coined the term "socialist", (not left-wing that is separate), to gain some popularity in the early days and promote his view that everything wrong with the world was down to Jewish Capitalists.
 

Naughty_Felid

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Further debate over the distinguishing features of fascism Vs communism will be moved elsewhere.

Possibly the place where used tissues the three-week-old apple core and the most recent pages of the 'Venezuela Next' thread should reside.

Might I recommend?
http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php
or the WW2 thread? As I not a communist or a fascist or anything and it was a remark about Hitler.
 

maximus otter

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I'd be interested to hear your argument that by the height of his power how Hitler was "left-wing"?
The Nazis' 25-Point Program contained many items we'd associate with Socialism, e.g.:

11. Abolition of unearned incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore, we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

"Hermann Rauschning, for example, a Danzig Nazi who knew Hitler before and after his accession to power in 1933, tells how in private Hitler acknowledged his profound debt to the Marxian tradition. "I have learned a great deal from Marxism" he once remarked, "as I do not hesitate to admit".

"[Hitler] add[ed] revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx."

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/hitler-and-the-socialist-dream-1186455.html

See also their espousal of animal rights, atheism, anti-smoking campaigns, Hitler's vegetarianism etc.

maximus otter
 
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The Nazis' 25-Point Program contained many items we'd associate with Socialism, e.g.:

11. Abolition of unearned incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore, we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

"Hermann Rauschning, for example, a Danzig Nazi who knew Hitler before and after his accession to power in 1933, tells how in private Hitler acknowledged his profound debt to the Marxian tradition. "I have learned a great deal from Marxism" he once remarked, "as I do not hesitate to admit".

"[Hitler] add[ed] revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx."

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/hitler-and-the-socialist-dream-1186455.html

See also their espousal of animal rights, atheism, anti-smoking campaigns, Hitler's vegetarianism etc.

maximus otter
This was their 1925 programme but under the Nazis Capitalism flourished, there were no divisions of profits. Far from being nationalised the big German combines made huge war profits.

The fact that a party claims to be Socialist or influenced by Marx does not make that a fact.

There are many Conservatives and Fascists who espouse animal rights, atheism, anti-smoking campaigns and vegetarianism etc.

Why not follow Yith's instructions and stop turning this thread into yet another Left V Right Punch n Judy Show?

Did Hitler Survive WW2 Or Did He Die In It is a Fortean Topic which could be fruitfully discussed. No need for any of us to divert from that Fortean Topic.
 
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Yithian

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I suppose this is good news, but the dark cloud to the silver lining is that there are only nine Battle Of Britain pilots left alive.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...le-Britain-veterans-increases-eight-nine.html

When I was a child, they were all over the place. Although we can be grateful that they have left a great recorded legacy of the venture of which they were part, it's sad to think that this chapter of our history is leaving living memory. And what venture could be greater? We send up thousands of all-but-schoolboys to fight against (numerical) odds, and defeat threatens invasion, enslavement and the snuffing out of civilisation in Europe.

And they win.
 
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Ringo

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Tonight I'm coming to you live, from possibly the worst design hotel in Belgium. What a shit hole. "Design" and "top end" must have a whole different meaning here. I have been hot on the trail of my Grandfather's company, the 234 Army Field Company (Royal Engineers).

Two days ago, I was in Brussels, looking at the spots where they demolished bridges to slow down the German advance. Yesterday, I stopped off at Bray Sands and Dunkirk on the French coast. Then I moved back in Belgium to De Panne. 75% of his comany were evacuated from De Panne and the others from Bray Sands/Dunkirk. There was a memorial at De Panne where a few wreaths had been placed. I had photocopies of a War Diary with me and so I left the corresponding pages (about the beach evacuation) at the memorial with instructions that anyone can read it but please leave it there for others.

Today, I had a great day exploring. I backtracked their evacuation route from De Panne all the way to the French border at Pont Rouge. Then on into France and I found a few places where my Grandfathers company was. One place was a dense wood where they had 4 machine gun positions and the Company HQ whilst setting charges on 4 bridges. It was 30 degrees here today and so I, dressed in jeans because of waist-high nettles, scoured and scrambled through marshy woodland looking for clues. The military map I had showed a clearing in the woods but it has since grown over. There was nothing to see except for some orange markings on certain trees marking the perimiter of where the new/young forest was. There was also a stenciled number 8. I presumed the orange markings were quite recent and thought no more about them.

But then I moved to a different place in the nearby village. Here I found, amongst overgrowth, an artillery position made out of cut down trees. They had been arranged into a kind of semi-circular wall, like you would do with sand bags. This position was clearly marked on the map. Nearby was marked another place they had a company HQ and here, in the middle of a small grassy area, I found a large chestnut tree. It was also marked close to the base with a large orange X. I wondered if these marks were left behind from WWII after all. If not, then it was a huge coincidence.

After that, I went to site of one of their Dumps (stores). It was in the grounds of an old house inside walled gardens. It's all offices now. The people there were surprised to hear that it had been used for military purposes and gave me permisison to look around. I found 3 small sheds in the gardens which looked to be from the right era. But they were all just filled with trash and broken garden tools.

So tomorrow I'm recreating their movements into the heart of Belgium, all the way into Brussels (just before they had to beat a hasty retreat back towards the coast).

Ringo over and out.
 
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Ringo

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Ringo reporting for duty. Today, you find me in yet another shitty hotel (I don't know how I manage it but I always pick shitty hotels).

Today I followed a tangled maze of country lanes and zig-zagged my way across the Belgian countryside. I visited 4 different villages where 234 Field Cpy were billeted en-route to Brussels. Each of these villages had a magnificent church and so while I don't know exactly where the company was, I know my eyes have fallen on the same churches that they looked at as they passed through.

They also made an equipment dump at a farm on the outskirts of one village. As I passed through, I noticed an abandoned farm just on the village edge. It was for sale and looked like it hadn't been touched in years. A picture on the for sale notice outside showed it to be a square building with an inner farmyard/courtyard. Unfortunately, it was fenced off with new barbed wire fences and at least 3 security cameras (that I could see). So no having a peek in there.

Which finds me on the North-Western edge of Brussels. I fly back home tomorrow with a mixed bag of feelings. There was very little to find/see at these locations as they were always moving. (They were also very good at collecting up all their stuff. It is mentioned in their diary that they lost very little equipment along the way. Everything expendable was eventually jettisoned at De Panne.)

I was expecting this but secretly hoped to find something - anything to put my hands on. A buckle, a bullet, a cup, a button...anything which had belonged to him or his mates. But I will take with me lots of memories and one in particular stands out - when I stepped onto the beach at De Panne. I felt a shiver go up my spine and I felt very close to my Grandfather as I looked out over the sea.

Message ends.
 
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Yithian

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Excellent stuff.

I think the trip I'd like to do most of all is the least likely to be possible owing to politics and war: an 8th/1st Army pilgrimage from Egypt along the coast of North Africa, through Libya and Tunisia, hugging the coast road and exploring the wadis and jebels.

I have an inspiring book of modern photo-journalist that shows many of the places today and they're haunting.

Might post extracts later.
 

Yithian

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Ringo reporting for duty. Today, you find me in yet another shitty hotel (I don't know how I manage it but I always pick shitty hotels).

Today I followed a tangled maze of country lanes and zig-zagged my way across the Belgian countryside. I visited 4 different villages where 234 Field Cpy were billeted en-route to Brussels. Each of these villages had a magnificent church and so while I don't know exactly where the company was, I know my eyes have fallen on the same churches that they looked at as they passed through.

They also made an equipment dump at a farm on the outskirts of one village. As I passed through, I noticed an abandoned farm just on the village edge. It was for sale and looked like it hadn't been touched in years. A picture on the for sale notice outside showed it to be a square building with an inner farmyard/courtyard. Unfortunately, it was fenced off with new barbed wire fences and at least 3 security cameras (that I could see). So no having a peek in there.

Which finds me on the North-Western edge of Brussels. I fly back home tomorrow with a mixed bag of feelings. There was very little to find/see at these locations as they were always moving. (They were also very good at collecting up all their stuff. It is mentioned in their diary that they lost very little equipment along the way. Everything expendable was eventually jettisoned at De Panne.)

I was expecting this but secretly hoped to find something - anything to put my hands on. A buckle, a bullet, a cup, a button...anything which had belonged to him or his mates. But I will take with me lots of memories and one in particular stands out - when I stepped onto the beach at De Panne. I felt a shiver go up my spine and I felt very close to my Grandfather as I looked out over the sea.

Message ends.
By the way, photos!

A picture paints a thousand words--no matter how eloquently penned.
 

Ringo

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OK - here's a relative barrage of photographs. Yith, you may have to adjust the sizes.

De Panne, Belgian coast. The Operation Dynamo Memorial.

. IMG_8434.jpg

Scrubland between the newly rebuilt town and the sea (out of shot to the right) is still off-limits. There are old pill boxes still to be seen amonst the dunes. (De Panne, Belgium).
IMG_8433.jpg

Information about the evacuation
IMG_8436.jpg

The Dunkirk Museum - housed in the former Bastion 32, Dunkirk.
IMG_8440.jpg

When retreating from France to Belgium, the company crossed over a canal on the birder at Pont Rouge. Here is picture of the approach from the French side.
IMG_8450.jpg

And the new bridge from the Belgian side. You can still see the older, larger foundations underneath the newer one.
IMG_8454.jpg

More to follow.
 
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Ringo

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A military marking found on a tree inside a cordoned off section of the forest. This was the temporary HQ I mentioned, used when placing charges on the nearby bridges. (Near village of Seclin, France)
IMG_8458.jpg

Hard to see here, but this is some sort of barricade/trench set-up using a felled tree as material. The tree was chopped down and then divided into 3 massive logs. These were then stacked on top of each other in a semi-circular pattern. THis location was marked on the map as an Ordinance Position. (Seclin, France)
IMG_8466.jpg IMG_8467.jpg

An old shed in the gorunds of a chateaux. This was maybe used in the equipment dump. (Seclin, France)
IMG_8471.jpg

An abandoned farm which is described in the War Diary as being used as another dump. (Outskirts of Coyghem, Belgium)
IMG_8479.jpg

And some other images I find interesting. My Grandfather's regiment built these makeshift piers at De Panne and Bray Dunes.
IMG_8484.jpg IMG_8485.jpg IMG_8486.jpg

That's it for now.
 
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Cochise

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Hitler was not left wing.
That comes in to the whole discussion of 'Is Fascism left wing or right wing' I'd argue Fascism is left wing because it embraces this principle of Karl Marx that the workers should own ('control') the means of production. Hitler and Mussolini were without doubt born as working class, and controlled the means of production for the benefit off their people.

Mussolini I believe was, at least at first, genuine. Hitler may have been purely cynical, but maybe be wasn't - after all, we won and we are hardly likely to assign any pure motives to an enemy, especially one whose racial views are now utterly unacceptable.

In any case I believe traditional politics are a circle - extreme left and extreme right are almost indistinguishable.
 

Naughty_Felid

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That comes in to the whole discussion of 'Is Fascism left wing or right wing' I'd argue Fascism is left wing because it embraces this principle of Karl Marx that the workers should own ('control') the means of production. Hitler and Mussolini were without doubt born as working class, and controlled the means of production for the benefit off their people.

Mussolini I believe was, at least at first, genuine. Hitler may have been purely cynical, but maybe be wasn't - after all, we won and we are hardly likely to assign any pure motives to an enemy, especially one whose racial views are now utterly unacceptable.

In any case I believe traditional politics are a circle - extreme left and extreme right are almost indistinguishable.

There is no way Hitler's father would have classed himself as working class.
 

EnolaGaia

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... In any case I believe traditional politics are a circle - extreme left and extreme right are almost indistinguishable.
I agree ... The totalitarian aspects are essentially identical; the propagandized bogeymen vary in identity but not in the role(s) they serve.

I've known multiple folks who've drifted off stage to the extreme right and / or extreme left, only to re-emerge from the opposite wing.
 

Yithian

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In response to enquiries, the discussion of historical fascism, communism and totalitarianism is within the rules.
To be clear, this means evaluating Hitler, Stalin et al. in terms of what they said, believed and did and why. To be even clearer, this isn't an opportunity to discuss the merits of such ideologies.

If anybody is silly enough to start relating all that to current beliefs and practices, or if we get all the usual references to current parties, politicians and movements, we'll just assume that you can't control you own posting and delete the lot.

The same goes if you all start yelling at one another about it.

Give me a weekend without...

:sstorm:


I don't know whether this is wise, but we'll give it a whirl.
 
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