The Shroud Of Turin
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Indeed, the Mandylion! Which was a word that described that object, alone. The Byzantines loved relics, and some "not made by hands" were prized most of all. There were a number of relics and icons that were said to have been directly created by Divine action alone.
In Egypt, bodies of the unclaimed dead were crudely mummified for sale to tourists, and the ghoulish trade in 'relics' is well documented. There are enough splinters of the True Cross to build a barn. Fakes abound.
We'll probably never know-what we do know is that these things were around, and recorded for quite some time.
Besides, if there is proof, where is faith?
I recall that the Mandylion is somehow associated with a hand towel, but I seem to be in error
In Egypt, bodies of the unclaimed dead were crudely mummified for sale to tourists, and the ghoulish trade in 'relics' is well documented. There are enough splinters of the True Cross to build a barn. Fakes abound.
We'll probably never know-what we do know is that these things were around, and recorded for quite some time.
Besides, if there is proof, where is faith?
I recall that the Mandylion is somehow associated with a hand towel, but I seem to be in error
maxley
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According to the Daily Mail there were 'up to 40 shrouds' knocking about during the Middle Ages.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...originated-1-300-years-AFTER-crucifixion.html
If they were all real our Lord of Hosts would have looked like the Michelin Man.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...originated-1-300-years-AFTER-crucifixion.html
If they were all real our Lord of Hosts would have looked like the Michelin Man.
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Surely this alone is proof that it's fake.
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The shroud is a fake! Oh no it isn't! Oh yes it is! Oh no it isn't! etc...
Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery'
The Turin Shroud is not a medieval forgery, as has long been claimed, but could in fact date from the time of Christ's death, a new book claims.
By Nick Squires, Rome correspondent
10:24AM GMT 28 Mar 2013
Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.
Many Catholics believe that the 14ft-long linen cloth, which bears the imprint of the face and body of a bearded man, was used to bury Christ's body when he was lifted down from the cross after being crucified 2,000 years ago.
The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist.
The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics.
Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud, which is kept in a special climate-controlled case in Turin.
The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD.
The experiments were carried out on fibres taken from the Shroud during a previous study, in 1988, when they were subjected to carbon-14 dating.
Those tests, conducted by laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Arizona, appeared to back up the theory that the shroud was a clever medieval fake, suggesting that it dated from 1260 to 1390.
But those results were in turn disputed on the basis that they may have been skewed by contamination by fibres from cloth that was used to repair the relic when it was damaged by fire in the Middle Ages.
Mr Fanti, a Catholic, said his results were the fruit of 15 years of research.
He said the carbon-14 dating tests carried out in 1988 were “false” because of laboratory contamination.
The mystery of the shroud has baffled people for centuries and has spawned not only religious devotion but also books, documentaries and conspiracy theories.
The linen cloth appears to show the imprint of a man with long hair and a beard whose body bears wounds consistent with having been crucified.
Each year it lures hundreds of thousands of faithful to Turin Cathedral, where it is kept in a specially designed, climate-controlled case.
Scientists have never been able to explain how the image of a man's body, complete with nail wounds to his wrists and feet, pinpricks from thorns around his forehead and a spear wound to his chest, could have formed on the cloth. Mr Fanti said the imprint was caused by a blast of “exceptional radiation”, although he stopped short of describing it as a miracle.
He said his tests backed up earlier results which claimed to have found on the shroud traces of dust and pollen which could only have come from the Holy Land.
Mr Gaeta is also a committed Catholic - he worked for L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, and now works for Famiglia Cristiana, a Catholic weekly.
The Vatican has never said whether it believes the shroud to be authentic or not, although Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI once said that the enigmatic image imprinted on the cloth "reminds us always" of Christ's suffering.
His newly-elected successor, Pope Francis, will provide an introduction when images of the shroud appear on television on Saturday, the day before Easter Sunday, which commemorates the resurrection.
The Pope has recorded a voice-over introduction for the broadcast on RAI, the state television channel.
"It will be a message of intense spiritual scope, charged with positivity, which will help (people) never to lose hope," said Cesare Nosiglia, the Archbishop of Turin, who also has the title "pontifical custodian of the shroud".
"The display of the shroud on a day as special as Holy Saturday means that it represents a very important testimony to the Passion and the resurrection of the Lord," he said.
For the first time, an app has been created to enable people to explore the holy relic in detail on their smart phones and tablets.
The app, sanctioned by the Catholic Church and called "Shroud 2.0", features high definition photographs of the cloth and enables users to see details that would otherwise be invisible to the naked eye.
"For the first time in history the most detailed image of the shroud ever achieved becomes available to the whole world, thanks to a streaming system which allows a close-up view of the cloth. Each detail of the cloth can be magnified and visualised in a way which would otherwise not be possible," Haltadefinizione, the makers of the app, said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rgery.html
Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery'
The Turin Shroud is not a medieval forgery, as has long been claimed, but could in fact date from the time of Christ's death, a new book claims.
By Nick Squires, Rome correspondent
10:24AM GMT 28 Mar 2013
Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.
Many Catholics believe that the 14ft-long linen cloth, which bears the imprint of the face and body of a bearded man, was used to bury Christ's body when he was lifted down from the cross after being crucified 2,000 years ago.
The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist.
The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics.
Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud, which is kept in a special climate-controlled case in Turin.
The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD.
The experiments were carried out on fibres taken from the Shroud during a previous study, in 1988, when they were subjected to carbon-14 dating.
Those tests, conducted by laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Arizona, appeared to back up the theory that the shroud was a clever medieval fake, suggesting that it dated from 1260 to 1390.
But those results were in turn disputed on the basis that they may have been skewed by contamination by fibres from cloth that was used to repair the relic when it was damaged by fire in the Middle Ages.
Mr Fanti, a Catholic, said his results were the fruit of 15 years of research.
He said the carbon-14 dating tests carried out in 1988 were “false” because of laboratory contamination.
The mystery of the shroud has baffled people for centuries and has spawned not only religious devotion but also books, documentaries and conspiracy theories.
The linen cloth appears to show the imprint of a man with long hair and a beard whose body bears wounds consistent with having been crucified.
Each year it lures hundreds of thousands of faithful to Turin Cathedral, where it is kept in a specially designed, climate-controlled case.
Scientists have never been able to explain how the image of a man's body, complete with nail wounds to his wrists and feet, pinpricks from thorns around his forehead and a spear wound to his chest, could have formed on the cloth. Mr Fanti said the imprint was caused by a blast of “exceptional radiation”, although he stopped short of describing it as a miracle.
He said his tests backed up earlier results which claimed to have found on the shroud traces of dust and pollen which could only have come from the Holy Land.
Mr Gaeta is also a committed Catholic - he worked for L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, and now works for Famiglia Cristiana, a Catholic weekly.
The Vatican has never said whether it believes the shroud to be authentic or not, although Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI once said that the enigmatic image imprinted on the cloth "reminds us always" of Christ's suffering.
His newly-elected successor, Pope Francis, will provide an introduction when images of the shroud appear on television on Saturday, the day before Easter Sunday, which commemorates the resurrection.
The Pope has recorded a voice-over introduction for the broadcast on RAI, the state television channel.
"It will be a message of intense spiritual scope, charged with positivity, which will help (people) never to lose hope," said Cesare Nosiglia, the Archbishop of Turin, who also has the title "pontifical custodian of the shroud".
"The display of the shroud on a day as special as Holy Saturday means that it represents a very important testimony to the Passion and the resurrection of the Lord," he said.
For the first time, an app has been created to enable people to explore the holy relic in detail on their smart phones and tablets.
The app, sanctioned by the Catholic Church and called "Shroud 2.0", features high definition photographs of the cloth and enables users to see details that would otherwise be invisible to the naked eye.
"For the first time in history the most detailed image of the shroud ever achieved becomes available to the whole world, thanks to a streaming system which allows a close-up view of the cloth. Each detail of the cloth can be magnified and visualised in a way which would otherwise not be possible," Haltadefinizione, the makers of the app, said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rgery.html
gncxx said:
I'd watch THAT! :lol:
But here's the link to what I mean - I didn't hear anything more about it, though:
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/shroud_ ... e_partner/
A question occurs to me.
Where did the idea of making a negative image come from, if we concede it to be a fake? Photography was unknown, thus, the idea of negative images was unknown in the middle ages, as far as I know.
One explainition of the Shroud was that a bas relief was used and the fabric scorched with a hot iron. That would give a negative image, but why do it that way? Where might the idea come from?
Some reports state that the scorch hypothesis is exploded by tests. Given the long history of outright manipulation in the examination of the Shroud, can we accept that?
Given that the Shroud was faked(a matter of personal belief)who faked it, and why? Relics never required much provenance to be accepted, after all, the Spear of Destiny was simply dug up and proclaimed to be the Holy Lance, because of a vision!
People had been tromping around Jerusalem with assorted polearms for a very long time, if one was dug-even absent other jiggery-pokery-it should come as no surprise.
Seems like a lot of trouble to bring off a simple scam. Money is the usual motive for such things, and some fakers are quite meticulous in their work-hoping for a better return. Could go either way. Witness the great care taken with the Voynich, some fakers are craftsmen.
This is a very complex mystery, and don'tcha just love it?
Where did the idea of making a negative image come from, if we concede it to be a fake? Photography was unknown, thus, the idea of negative images was unknown in the middle ages, as far as I know.
One explainition of the Shroud was that a bas relief was used and the fabric scorched with a hot iron. That would give a negative image, but why do it that way? Where might the idea come from?
Some reports state that the scorch hypothesis is exploded by tests. Given the long history of outright manipulation in the examination of the Shroud, can we accept that?
Given that the Shroud was faked(a matter of personal belief)who faked it, and why? Relics never required much provenance to be accepted, after all, the Spear of Destiny was simply dug up and proclaimed to be the Holy Lance, because of a vision!
People had been tromping around Jerusalem with assorted polearms for a very long time, if one was dug-even absent other jiggery-pokery-it should come as no surprise.
Seems like a lot of trouble to bring off a simple scam. Money is the usual motive for such things, and some fakers are quite meticulous in their work-hoping for a better return. Could go either way. Witness the great care taken with the Voynich, some fakers are craftsmen.
This is a very complex mystery, and don'tcha just love it?
One theory is that it is the oldest surviving photograph! That sounds insane at first - but both the camera obscura and some light-reactive chemicals were known at the time the shroud first appeared.
That would neatly explain the "negative" effect. Just last week a TV program that showed how it could be done with materials available in the 14th century:
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/video/213038 ... rin-Shroud
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-shr ... photograph
That theory has been around for a while - and on that TV show they produced an image just like the one on the shroud. If true though, it begs the question why the method was forgotten for so long.
Then again, under-floor heating went out of fashion from Roman times until the 1970s!
That would neatly explain the "negative" effect. Just last week a TV program that showed how it could be done with materials available in the 14th century:
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/video/213038 ... rin-Shroud
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-shr ... photograph
That theory has been around for a while - and on that TV show they produced an image just like the one on the shroud. If true though, it begs the question why the method was forgotten for so long.
Then again, under-floor heating went out of fashion from Roman times until the 1970s!
Now, if the Shroud was faked at about the time of Christ, why was it made?
Christians were mighty thin on the ground for a century or so after the Crucifixion, the religion was a minor cult. Not something that would attract relic fakers.
That it survived at all raises a few vexed questions, and certainly makes the proposition of a historical Jesus more credible. The Bible has stories of Roman converts quite soon after Jesus was killed, why would Romans choose to follow the teachings of a Jewish heretic who died on the cross, a death considered infamous?
Indeed, there are many more things in Heaven and Earth, and faith is one of the most mysterious.
The teachings of Akiva and Hillel are quite similar to those attributed to John the Baptist and Jesus. John and Akiva were also martyred, why was Jesus the chosen one?
It gives me pause.
Christians were mighty thin on the ground for a century or so after the Crucifixion, the religion was a minor cult. Not something that would attract relic fakers.
That it survived at all raises a few vexed questions, and certainly makes the proposition of a historical Jesus more credible. The Bible has stories of Roman converts quite soon after Jesus was killed, why would Romans choose to follow the teachings of a Jewish heretic who died on the cross, a death considered infamous?
Indeed, there are many more things in Heaven and Earth, and faith is one of the most mysterious.
The teachings of Akiva and Hillel are quite similar to those attributed to John the Baptist and Jesus. John and Akiva were also martyred, why was Jesus the chosen one?
It gives me pause.
kamalktk
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The BBC says it was broadcast http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21984018, as does Al-Jazeera http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/03/201333018415333162.html. Oddly, youtube doesn't have the broadcast itself.Zilch5 said:
maximus otter
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An earthquake in Jerusalem in AD 33 may have caused an atomic reaction which created the Turin Shroud and skewed radiocarbon dating results, scientists believe.
The Turin Shroud may not be a medieval forgery after all, after scientists discovered it could date from the time of Christ.
The shroud, which is purported to be the burial cloth of Jesus - showing his face and body after the crucifixion - has intrigued scholars and Christians alike.
But radiocarbon dating carried out by Oxford University in 1988 found it was only 728 years old.
However a new study claims than an earthquake in Jerusalem in 33AD may have not only created the image but may also have skewed the dating results.
The Italian team believes the powerful magnitude 8.2 earthquake would have been strong enough to release neutron particles from crushed rock.
This flood of neutrons may have imprinted an X-ray-like image onto the linen burial cloth, say the researches.
In addition, the radiation emissions would have increased the level of carbon-14 isotopes in the Shroud, which would make it appear younger.
"We believe it is possible that neutron emissions by earthquakes could have induced the image formation on the Shroud's linen fibres, through thermal neutron capture on nitrogen nuclei, and could also have caused a wrong radiocarbon dating," said Professor Alberto Carpinteri, from the Politecnico di Torino.
The Shroud has attracted widespread interest ever since Secondo Pia took the first photograph of it in 1898 which showed details which could not be seen by the naked eye.
Last year scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy dated it to between 300BC and AD400 – still hundreds of years after Christ, who is believed to have died between 30-36AD.
Other scientists have previously suggested that neutron radiation may have been responsible for the ghostly image of a crucified man with his arms crossed.
However, no plausible explanation has been offered for the source of the radiation.
Now Carpinteri’s team have hypothesized that high-frequency pressure waves generated in the Earth’s crust during earthquakes are the source of such neutron emissions.
The scientists base the idea on research into piezonuclear fission reactions which occur when brittle rock is crushed under enormous pressure.
Neutron radiation is usually generated by nuclear fusion or fission, and may be produced by nuclear reactors or particle accelerators.
During the process, neutron particles are released from atoms.
A powerful earthquake could achieve the same effect, generating neutron radiation from stresses in the Earth, it is claimed.
Mark Antonacci, a leading expert on the Shroud and president of the Resurrection of the Shroud Foundation, is currently petitioning Pope Francis to allow molecular analysis of the cloth using the latest technology. It is hoped that such an investigation will be able to confirm or rule out the radiation theory.
The Vatican has never said whether it believes the shroud to be authentic, although Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI once said that the enigmatic image imprinted on the cloth "reminds us always" of Christ's suffering.
The first, hotly debated, documented reference to the Shroud of Turin dates back to the 14th century when a French knight was said to have had possession of the cloth in the city of Lirey.
Records suggest the Shroud changed hands many times until 1578, when it ended up in its current home, the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy.
The 14-foot long herringbone woven cloth appears to show the faint imprint of a man bearing wounds consistent with crucifixion.
Some have proposed that it came from the body itself, or was generated by an event inside the tomb, pointing to a divine origin linked to the resurrection.
The new theory is published in the journal Meccanica.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10631973/Turin-Shroud-may-date-from-time-of-Jesus.html
maximus otter
The Turin Shroud may not be a medieval forgery after all, after scientists discovered it could date from the time of Christ.
The shroud, which is purported to be the burial cloth of Jesus - showing his face and body after the crucifixion - has intrigued scholars and Christians alike.
But radiocarbon dating carried out by Oxford University in 1988 found it was only 728 years old.
However a new study claims than an earthquake in Jerusalem in 33AD may have not only created the image but may also have skewed the dating results.
The Italian team believes the powerful magnitude 8.2 earthquake would have been strong enough to release neutron particles from crushed rock.
This flood of neutrons may have imprinted an X-ray-like image onto the linen burial cloth, say the researches.
In addition, the radiation emissions would have increased the level of carbon-14 isotopes in the Shroud, which would make it appear younger.
"We believe it is possible that neutron emissions by earthquakes could have induced the image formation on the Shroud's linen fibres, through thermal neutron capture on nitrogen nuclei, and could also have caused a wrong radiocarbon dating," said Professor Alberto Carpinteri, from the Politecnico di Torino.
The Shroud has attracted widespread interest ever since Secondo Pia took the first photograph of it in 1898 which showed details which could not be seen by the naked eye.
Last year scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy dated it to between 300BC and AD400 – still hundreds of years after Christ, who is believed to have died between 30-36AD.
Other scientists have previously suggested that neutron radiation may have been responsible for the ghostly image of a crucified man with his arms crossed.
However, no plausible explanation has been offered for the source of the radiation.
Now Carpinteri’s team have hypothesized that high-frequency pressure waves generated in the Earth’s crust during earthquakes are the source of such neutron emissions.
The scientists base the idea on research into piezonuclear fission reactions which occur when brittle rock is crushed under enormous pressure.
Neutron radiation is usually generated by nuclear fusion or fission, and may be produced by nuclear reactors or particle accelerators.
During the process, neutron particles are released from atoms.
A powerful earthquake could achieve the same effect, generating neutron radiation from stresses in the Earth, it is claimed.
Mark Antonacci, a leading expert on the Shroud and president of the Resurrection of the Shroud Foundation, is currently petitioning Pope Francis to allow molecular analysis of the cloth using the latest technology. It is hoped that such an investigation will be able to confirm or rule out the radiation theory.
The Vatican has never said whether it believes the shroud to be authentic, although Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI once said that the enigmatic image imprinted on the cloth "reminds us always" of Christ's suffering.
The first, hotly debated, documented reference to the Shroud of Turin dates back to the 14th century when a French knight was said to have had possession of the cloth in the city of Lirey.
Records suggest the Shroud changed hands many times until 1578, when it ended up in its current home, the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy.
The 14-foot long herringbone woven cloth appears to show the faint imprint of a man bearing wounds consistent with crucifixion.
Some have proposed that it came from the body itself, or was generated by an event inside the tomb, pointing to a divine origin linked to the resurrection.
The new theory is published in the journal Meccanica.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10631973/Turin-Shroud-may-date-from-time-of-Jesus.html
maximus otter
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Time for a new outing for this venerable thread. This article is a good starting point for newcomers to the subject, although much of it is probably covered by this thread already:
How did the Turin Shroud get its image?
On Sunday, Pope Francis will "venerate" the famous Shroud of Turin, which is thought by some to be the burial wrapping of Jesus Christ - and by others to be a medieval fake. Whatever it is, it's a mystery how the cloth came to bear the image of a man. Science writer Philip Ball discusses the theories.
In a carefully worded announcement, the Archbishop of Turin says that the Pope "confirms the devotion to the shroud that millions of pilgrims recognise as a sign of the mystery of the passion and death of the Lord".
You'll notice that this says nothing about its authenticity. The Catholic Church takes no official position on that, stating only that it is a matter for scientific investigation. Ever since radiocarbon dating in 1989 proclaimed the 14ft by 4ft piece of linen to be roughly 700 years old, the Church has avoided claiming that it is anything more than an "icon" of Christian devotion.
But regardless of the continuing arguments about its age (summarised in the box at the bottom of this page) the Shroud of Turin is a deeply puzzling object. Studies in 1978 by an international team of experts - the Shroud of Turin Research Project (Sturp) - delivered no clear explanation of how the cloth came to bear the faint imprint of a bearded man apparently bearing the wounds of crucifixion.
There's no shortage of hypotheses. Some suggest that the image came about through natural processes; some impute considerable ingenuity to medieval forgers of relics; others invoke wondrous physical processes associated with the Resurrection. But do any have any merit?
etc...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33164668
How did the Turin Shroud get its image?
On Sunday, Pope Francis will "venerate" the famous Shroud of Turin, which is thought by some to be the burial wrapping of Jesus Christ - and by others to be a medieval fake. Whatever it is, it's a mystery how the cloth came to bear the image of a man. Science writer Philip Ball discusses the theories.
In a carefully worded announcement, the Archbishop of Turin says that the Pope "confirms the devotion to the shroud that millions of pilgrims recognise as a sign of the mystery of the passion and death of the Lord".
You'll notice that this says nothing about its authenticity. The Catholic Church takes no official position on that, stating only that it is a matter for scientific investigation. Ever since radiocarbon dating in 1989 proclaimed the 14ft by 4ft piece of linen to be roughly 700 years old, the Church has avoided claiming that it is anything more than an "icon" of Christian devotion.
But regardless of the continuing arguments about its age (summarised in the box at the bottom of this page) the Shroud of Turin is a deeply puzzling object. Studies in 1978 by an international team of experts - the Shroud of Turin Research Project (Sturp) - delivered no clear explanation of how the cloth came to bear the faint imprint of a bearded man apparently bearing the wounds of crucifixion.
There's no shortage of hypotheses. Some suggest that the image came about through natural processes; some impute considerable ingenuity to medieval forgers of relics; others invoke wondrous physical processes associated with the Resurrection. But do any have any merit?
etc...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33164668
Analogue Boy
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So Jesus arrives at The Pearly Gates and he's wearing the same shroud outfit as St Peter.
I mean. How much more awkward could things get?
I mean. How much more awkward could things get?
Mythopoeika
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'Top Shroud' or 'Shrouds 'R Us'?
Analogue Boy
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You missed the point again.
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Ermintruder
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Do you mean in respect of the alleged blood connections between with the Sudariam (head-wrap) and the Shroud? They're not what I'd call definitively-certain (nor are they new assertions)
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/434153/shroud-turin-jesus-christ-blood-relic-sudarium-oviedo
drbastard
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The link was embedded but here
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0180487#sec006
Not just presence of blood, sorry I posted that in a hurry
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0180487#sec006
Not just presence of blood, sorry I posted that in a hurry
Ermintruder
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"The consistent bound of ferritin iron to creatinine occurs in human organism in case of a severe polytrauma"
A fascinating assertion, that seeks to explain the actual presence of the markings on the Shroud itself.
And if this were indeed true (in the mechanistic/reductionist manner stated), why would this have happened without precident or succession?
Do we actually have, here, scientific analysis and confirmation of a miracle? Or is this pseudoscientific postulation? I can't access the paper deeper than the abstract, will try again.
A fascinating assertion, that seeks to explain the actual presence of the markings on the Shroud itself.
And if this were indeed true (in the mechanistic/reductionist manner stated), why would this have happened without precident or succession?
Do we actually have, here, scientific analysis and confirmation of a miracle? Or is this pseudoscientific postulation? I can't access the paper deeper than the abstract, will try again.
Analogue Boy
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Carbon Dating. An app for people who aren't that fussy.
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I don't have any particularly passionate opinions on the shroud. I got involved in some online debates about it years ago, but eventually got bored with the endless streams of claims and counter-claims, more and more of it depending on ever more obscure and difficult-to-verify scientific procedures.
My intuition is that it is a fake, because:
1. It dates from a time when such fakes were very common;
2. It LOOKS fake (e.g. lacks the wrap-around distortions one would expect from an imprint made by an actual body;
3. The figure is somewhat out of proportion; and
4. The style of the image is pretty typical of the art style current at the time when we first hear about the shroud.
But of course, I might be wrong. Seeing as there isn't really any way for me check for sure, I nowadays consider the issue to be somewhat irrelevant to me.
My intuition is that it is a fake, because:
1. It dates from a time when such fakes were very common;
2. It LOOKS fake (e.g. lacks the wrap-around distortions one would expect from an imprint made by an actual body;
3. The figure is somewhat out of proportion; and
4. The style of the image is pretty typical of the art style current at the time when we first hear about the shroud.
But of course, I might be wrong. Seeing as there isn't really any way for me check for sure, I nowadays consider the issue to be somewhat irrelevant to me.
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Apart from the carbon-dating, the main sticking point for me has always been the figure itself. It looks far more like the classic, Euro-centric depiction of Christ than how the man himself would have looked. For a start the figure on the shroud is about seven or eight inches taller than the average Middle-Eastern man of the time, and the facial bone-structure is more Western-Mediterranean. Indeed, I remember thinking when sort-of watching Zeferelli's "Jesus of Nazareth" that if you were to cast a realistic-looking Christ he would probably look far more like a bearded Dustin Hoffman in both stature and appearance than Robert Powell: but then the supporting cast would all have to conform to realism too. The Renaissance image is the pervasive one, just as Buddha looks more South East Asian the further north and east you go from India.
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stuneville: Good point. At the time the shroud made its first appearance, even well educated Europeans would perhaps not necessarily have known what Middle Eastern people looked like. In their art, it is common to see Biblical figures depicted as looking western European, and using clothing, weaponry and other props common to Europe at that time, rather than the time of Christ.
I am not too sure whether they painted this way out of ignorance or by design, but if the figure in the shroud had looked more Middle Eastern, people might have been skeptical!
I am not too sure whether they painted this way out of ignorance or by design, but if the figure in the shroud had looked more Middle Eastern, people might have been skeptical!
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Here's a thought - maybe it's the image of a Crusader? I'm sure I read that the Saracens would occasionally crucify them if captured.
Mythopoeika
I am a meat popsicle
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I keep forgetting that Buddha was from India. Easy to do when you see so much iconography/statuary from the far East.