• Forums Software Updates

    The forums will be undergoing updates on Sunday 13th October 2024.
    Little to no downtime is expected.
  • We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

The Sikh Thread

A secular Sikh?

I think you mean a non-practising or non-observant Sikh.

Every Sikh I have known has been secular in the sense that they believe in the separation of Church and state. They are not seeking to have a religious government.

I'm not nitpicking here. People often say "secular" when they mean "non-practising", "agnostic" or even "atheist". But it doesn't mean the same thing. It's quite possible to be a devout religious believer but still secular. It's an important distinction.
 
I think you mean a non-practising or non-observant Sikh.

Every Sikh I have known has been secular in the sense that they believe in the separation of Church and state. They are not seeking to have a religious government.

I'm not nitpicking here. People often say "secular" when they mean "non-practising", "agnostic" or even "atheist". But it doesn't mean the same thing. It's quite possible to be a devout religious believer but still secular. It's an important distinction.

Yeah. I was clumsy in my use of words.
 
I didn't know Sikh women wore turbans.

Harjinder S Kukreja‏Verified account@SinghLions 8h8 hours ago
Sikh woman appointed as BC Supreme Court judge. She is the 1st Turbaned Sikh appointed to the judiciary in Canada http://www.voiceonline.com/organization-palbinder-appointed/…

DDDndtlVwAAwfC5.jpg
 
Look's like a deliberate provocation, obviously I don't agree with him being beaten to death though.

Police in the Indian city of Amritsar say a man suspected of trying to commit a sacrilegious act at Sikhism's holiest shrine has been beaten to death.

The incident took place during a prayer service at the city's Golden Temple on Saturday, according to local media.
The man allegedly barged into the inner sanctum, where Sikhism's holy book, the Guru Granth Sahib, is kept.
He then tried to touch a ceremonial sword placed next to the book, but was overpowered by guards and worshippers.
Sikhs regard the Guru Granth Sahib as not just the holy scripture of their religion but also as the living Guru, and believe it should be treated with respect as a human might be.
The scuffle took place at around 17:45 local time (11:45 GMT), and was captured on camera as evening prayers were being broadcast on television.

It is unclear exactly what happened next. Police said the man was found dead once officers arrived at the scene, and an investigation is under way.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-59715937
 
A plot to murder Sikh activists (one already killed), looks as if there was Indian Government involvement.

What US agents knew before a Sikh separatist was killed in Canada​


Photo of Hardeep Singh Nijjar

Canadian police are still investigating the June murder of Mr Nijjar

US prosecutors have charged an Indian man with a plot to kill at least four Sikh separatists in North America. The indictment links the case to the murder of a Canadian citizen earlier this year, and has prompted questions about what US agents knew in the days before his death.

On 18 June, Nikhil Gupta watched a video of a Sikh separatist leader who had been shot dead in Canada in his car, his bloody body slumped over the steering wheel. Mr Gupta then forwarded the video to a man he is accused of hiring as a hitman for another murder, in a different country. On the phone the next day, Mr Gupta told the man that the Canadian activist had been a "target", "#4, #3" on a list.

"We have so many targets," Mr Gupta said. "The good news is this: now no need to wait."

Those alleged conversations were outlined in an indictment unsealed by US prosecutors on Wednesday. The US Justice Department has charged Mr Gupta with an elaborate plot to assassinate a dual US-Canadian citizen based in New York, a plot allegedly directed by an Indian government employee.

While the target was not named by prosecutors, US media reported it was Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, a dual US-Canadian citizen and member of a US-based Sikh separatist group. That particular scheme was thwarted. The hitman in New York who Mr Gupta allegedly agreed to pay $100,000 was in fact an undercover agent.

But the 15-page charging document also provides new details on the attack that did succeed - the fatal shooting of Hardeep Singh Nijjar in British Columbia. These details raise fresh questions about that murder on Canadian soil, about who knew what, and when.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67582825
 
A plot to murder Sikh activists (one already killed), looks as if there was Indian Government involvement.

What US agents knew before a Sikh separatist was killed in Canada​


Photo of Hardeep Singh Nijjar

Canadian police are still investigating the June murder of Mr Nijjar

US prosecutors have charged an Indian man with a plot to kill at least four Sikh separatists in North America. The indictment links the case to the murder of a Canadian citizen earlier this year, and has prompted questions about what US agents knew in the days before his death.

On 18 June, Nikhil Gupta watched a video of a Sikh separatist leader who had been shot dead in Canada in his car, his bloody body slumped over the steering wheel. Mr Gupta then forwarded the video to a man he is accused of hiring as a hitman for another murder, in a different country. On the phone the next day, Mr Gupta told the man that the Canadian activist had been a "target", "#4, #3" on a list.

"We have so many targets," Mr Gupta said. "The good news is this: now no need to wait."

Those alleged conversations were outlined in an indictment unsealed by US prosecutors on Wednesday. The US Justice Department has charged Mr Gupta with an elaborate plot to assassinate a dual US-Canadian citizen based in New York, a plot allegedly directed by an Indian government employee.

While the target was not named by prosecutors, US media reported it was Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, a dual US-Canadian citizen and member of a US-based Sikh separatist group. That particular scheme was thwarted. The hitman in New York who Mr Gupta allegedly agreed to pay $100,000 was in fact an undercover agent.

But the 15-page charging document also provides new details on the attack that did succeed - the fatal shooting of Hardeep Singh Nijjar in British Columbia. These details raise fresh questions about that murder on Canadian soil, about who knew what, and when.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67582825

The saga continues.

An Indian man accused of conspiring to kill a US-based Sikh separatist leader has asked India's top court to intervene in his case.

Nikhil Gupta has been charged by the US government with trying to hire a hitman to assassinate Gurpatwant Singh Pannun. Mr Gupta is in jail in Prague and has asked the Indian Supreme Court to aid his release and help him get a fair trial.

His lawyer Rohini Musa has alleged that Mr Gupta has been detained illegally. She also claimed that the process to extradite Mr Gupta to the US had started.

"The extradition order has been passed against him. But the copy of the order has not been furnished to us," Ms Musa, who represents Mr Gupta's family, told the BBC. "There are reports that he has already been extradited. We have not been able to get any information from him and his whereabouts," she said.

The BBC has emailed the US Embassy in The Czech Republic for a response to these allegations.

Mr Gupta's family has also asked for an Indian advocate to represent him in the Czech Republic and the US.

In November, US prosecutors charged Mr Gupta with a plot to kill at least four Sikh separatists in North America, including Mr Pannun.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-67725935
 
Sikhs are good people. Here, in Australia, whenever there is a natural disaster, there's a number of Sikh charities who simply turn up out of the blue and provide free food and drink and assistance for anyone in need.

 
Sikhs are good people. Here, in Australia, whenever there is a natural disaster, there's a number of Sikh charities who simply turn up out of the blue and provide free food and drink and assistance for anyone in need.

They were active in early Covid days in the UK as well when huge queues of trucks were lined up waiting to cross the channel. They turned up spontaneously & provided probably lovely home cooked food to truckers stuck there for days at time.
 
The nearest analogy for westerners to understand the Sikhi religion is to think of it as 'modern reformed' Indian Hinduism - akin to Protestant sects as opposed to high Mediaeval Catholicism.

Sikhs reject caste and class (hence the adoption of the name Singh which = lion) and the dastar (turban) was claimed by early Sikhs as a universal headwear for men and women - previously it was only worn by the ruling overclass. They sought to remove the unearned power and/status that was inherent in the caste-class system in NW India in the 17th C.

Voluntary service is obligatory for any practicing Sikh and feeding of your neighbour(s) either individually or communally (eg., at a Gurudwara) is highly encouraged. All Sikhs are taught to never become a beggar - even if you are destitute you may live at the Gurudwara (temple complex) with your family and sleep and eat there whilst trying to find a job.

I have visited several Gurudwaras with my Hindu husband and always feel welcomed (remember to take your shoes off & cover your head - men and women) plus the langar vegetarian meal is always lovely :)

Like some people posting above me, I want to visit the Golden temple at Amritsar one day.

Gurudwara Bangla Sahib, Delhi 2018:
IMG_3121 (Copy).JPG
 
A secular Sikh?

Absolutely - as one can be a secular Jew, secular Hindu, Secular Christian. People identify 'as' from a particular religious background but as alway their degree of involvement varies from 'hatch-match-dispatch' to full practice.

They were active in early Covid days in the UK as well when huge queues of trucks were lined up waiting to cross the channel. They turned up spontaneously & provided probably lovely home cooked food to truckers stuck there for days at time.
Sikh groups helped people in Somerset that awful winter when the levels were flooded for months. They are amazing!
 
If anyone is interested, a 2021 Census report on persons in England and Wales identifying as Sikh was published last Friday. It got little or no press coverage that I could see.

Sikh was defined as those who stated their religion, ethnic group, or both as Sikh:

426,230 Sikh by religion only​
1,725 Sikh ethnicity only​
97,910 Sikh by both religion and ethnicity​

I was surprised the ethnic-only figure was quite so low.

oxo
 
Last edited:
Absolutely - as one can be a secular Jew, secular Hindu, Secular Christian. People identify 'as' from a particular religious background but as alway their degree of involvement varies from 'hatch-match-dispatch' to full practice.
I've worked with at least 2 secular Sikhs - no turban or beard, and they were quite happy to drink alcohol, eat pork etc.
 
People tend to stay with what they are born into?

Yes... but my thinking was that that would apply more strongly to ethnic identity than religious. So that non-observant persons of Sikh heritage might identify as ethnic Sikhs but not religious Sikhs.

Evidence doesn't support my prior thinking.
 
I lived in Wolverhampton for 30 years, where there were lots of Sikhs. I taught little ones in school, too.
I found them very reasonable human beings, and actually more tolerant than the Muslims.

I was Christian for most of those years, but never fell out with any of them (Muslim or Sikh).
We used to compare religious beliefs occasionally .
I also taught with a lady who was a Jain (sp?). She was lovely, and more veggie than myself.(She didn't eat eggs -I do.)
She'd had a partially arranged marriage -interesting.
 
I've worked with at least 2 secular Sikhs - no turban or beard, and they were quite happy to drink alcohol, eat pork etc.
I don't think there are any prohibitions against alcohol in Sikhism although I could be wrong
 
I worked with a Sikh who sported a beard and turban and he had no difficulties with a pint or two!
 
The saga continues.

An Indian man accused of conspiring to kill a US-based Sikh separatist leader has asked India's top court to intervene in his case.

Nikhil Gupta has been charged by the US government with trying to hire a hitman to assassinate Gurpatwant Singh Pannun. Mr Gupta is in jail in Prague and has asked the Indian Supreme Court to aid his release and help him get a fair trial.

His lawyer Rohini Musa has alleged that Mr Gupta has been detained illegally. She also claimed that the process to extradite Mr Gupta to the US had started.

"The extradition order has been passed against him. But the copy of the order has not been furnished to us," Ms Musa, who represents Mr Gupta's family, told the BBC. "There are reports that he has already been extradited. We have not been able to get any information from him and his whereabouts," she said.

The BBC has emailed the US Embassy in The Czech Republic for a response to these allegations.

Mr Gupta's family has also asked for an Indian advocate to represent him in the Czech Republic and the US.

In November, US prosecutors charged Mr Gupta with a plot to kill at least four Sikh separatists in North America, including Mr Pannun.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-67725935

Nikhil Gupta to be extradited.

The Czech Constitutional Court has rejected an Indian man's petition against his extradition to the US over an alleged plot to assassinate an American citizen in New York.

Nikhil Gupta has been charged by the US government with trying to hire a hitman to assassinate US-based Sikh separatist leader Gurpatwant Singh Pannun. Mr Gupta is in jail in Prague. A final decision on his extradition will be taken by the country's justice minister. The charges against Mr Gupta carry up to 20 years in prison.

In November 2023, US prosecutors charged Mr Gupta with a plot to kill at least four Sikh separatists in North America, including Mr Pannun.
They said that Mr Gupta had paid $100,000 (£79,000) in cash to a hitman to assassinate Mr Pannun, a dual US-Canadian citizen, in New York. But the hitman was actually an undercover federal agent, prosecutors said.

Mr Gupta was allegedly directed by an Indian government official who was not named or charged in the indictment.

India has designated Mr Pannun a terrorist, an allegation he denies, claiming to be an activist who believes in the movement for Khalistan, or a separate Sikh homeland.

The White House said it raised the alleged assassination plot with India at the most senior level. India officials distanced themselves from the plot, saying such actions were against government policy. It also said it had formed a committee to investigate the allegations against Mr Gupta.

In January, India's Supreme Court rejected a plea from Mr Gupta which asked it to aid his release and help him get a fair trial. The petition in India had claimed that Mr Gupta was arrested by "self-claimed" US federal agents and has not yet been given a fair trial.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c06682y50veo
 
Nikhil Gupta to be extradited.

The Czech Constitutional Court has rejected an Indian man's petition against his extradition to the US over an alleged plot to assassinate an American citizen in New York.

Nikhil Gupta has been charged by the US government with trying to hire a hitman to assassinate US-based Sikh separatist leader Gurpatwant Singh Pannun. Mr Gupta is in jail in Prague. A final decision on his extradition will be taken by the country's justice minister. The charges against Mr Gupta carry up to 20 years in prison.

In November 2023, US prosecutors charged Mr Gupta with a plot to kill at least four Sikh separatists in North America, including Mr Pannun.
They said that Mr Gupta had paid $100,000 (£79,000) in cash to a hitman to assassinate Mr Pannun, a dual US-Canadian citizen, in New York. But the hitman was actually an undercover federal agent, prosecutors said.

Mr Gupta was allegedly directed by an Indian government official who was not named or charged in the indictment.

India has designated Mr Pannun a terrorist, an allegation he denies, claiming to be an activist who believes in the movement for Khalistan, or a separate Sikh homeland.

The White House said it raised the alleged assassination plot with India at the most senior level. India officials distanced themselves from the plot, saying such actions were against government policy. It also said it had formed a committee to investigate the allegations against Mr Gupta.

In January, India's Supreme Court rejected a plea from Mr Gupta which asked it to aid his release and help him get a fair trial. The petition in India had claimed that Mr Gupta was arrested by "self-claimed" US federal agents and has not yet been given a fair trial.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c06682y50veo

Update.

An Indian man accused of plotting to assassinate a Sikh separatist on US soil is expected to appear in a New York court on Monday on murder charges.

Nikhil Gupta was extradited to the US over the weekend, the Washington Post reports, after he was arrested last year in the Czech Republic.

He is charged by US authorities with trying to hire a hitman to assassinate Sikh separatist leader Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, a dual US-Canadian citizen. US prosecutors allege Mr Gupta was directed by an unnamed Indian government official. India denies having anything to do with the alleged plot.

Last month, the Czech Constitutional Court rejected a petition by Mr Gupta, who denies the charges he faces, against his extradition to the US.

Mr Gupta, 52, is expected to be produced in the lower Manhattan courthouse on federal murder-for-hire charges. The charges against him carry up to 20 years in prison. Prison records show he is currently being held at the federal Metropolitan Detention Centre in Brooklyn.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3ggy5ypj68o
 
The saga continues.

An Indian man accused of conspiring to kill a US-based Sikh separatist leader has asked India's top court to intervene in his case.

Nikhil Gupta has been charged by the US government with trying to hire a hitman to assassinate Gurpatwant Singh Pannun. Mr Gupta is in jail in Prague and has asked the Indian Supreme Court to aid his release and help him get a fair trial.

His lawyer Rohini Musa has alleged that Mr Gupta has been detained illegally. She also claimed that the process to extradite Mr Gupta to the US had started.

"The extradition order has been passed against him. But the copy of the order has not been furnished to us," Ms Musa, who represents Mr Gupta's family, told the BBC. "There are reports that he has already been extradited. We have not been able to get any information from him and his whereabouts," she said.

The BBC has emailed the US Embassy in The Czech Republic for a response to these allegations.

Mr Gupta's family has also asked for an Indian advocate to represent him in the Czech Republic and the US.

In November, US prosecutors charged Mr Gupta with a plot to kill at least four Sikh separatists in North America, including Mr Pannun.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-67725935

Update.

India has reacted angrily after being told by Canada that its ambassador and other diplomats were named as "persons of interest" in an investigation in the country.

The foreign ministry in Delhi said it received the news in a diplomatic communication from Canada on Sunday, and reserved the right to respond. "The Government of India strongly rejects these preposterous imputations," it said.

The statement refers to allegations last year by Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that the Indian government may have been behind the killing of a Sikh separatist on Canadian soil. Delhi has repeatedly rejected the allegation. The row led to a deterioration in ties, with India asking Canada to withdraw dozens of its diplomatic staff and suspending visa services.

On Monday, India's foreign ministry said Canada's allegations were part of Trudeau's "political agenda" and warned of action, without specifying what it would be.

"India now reserves the right to take further steps in response to these latest efforts of the Canadian Government to concoct allegations against Indian diplomats," it said.

Delhi also defended its High Commissioner Sanjay Kumar Verma, referring to his "distinguished career spanning 36 years".

"The aspersions cast on him by the Government of Canada are ludicrous and deserve to be treated with contempt," it said.

There was no immediate Canadian response to Delhi's statement.

Hardeep Singh Nijjar was shot and killed in June 2023 by two masked gunmen outside a Sikh temple he led in Surrey, British Columbia. He had been a vocal supporter of the Khalistan movement, which demands a separate Sikh homeland, and publicly campaigned for it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyle3py4nko
 
Update.

India has reacted angrily after being told by Canada that its ambassador and other diplomats were named as "persons of interest" in an investigation in the country.

The foreign ministry in Delhi said it received the news in a diplomatic communication from Canada on Sunday, and reserved the right to respond. "The Government of India strongly rejects these preposterous imputations," it said.

The statement refers to allegations last year by Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that the Indian government may have been behind the killing of a Sikh separatist on Canadian soil. Delhi has repeatedly rejected the allegation. The row led to a deterioration in ties, with India asking Canada to withdraw dozens of its diplomatic staff and suspending visa services.

On Monday, India's foreign ministry said Canada's allegations were part of Trudeau's "political agenda" and warned of action, without specifying what it would be.

"India now reserves the right to take further steps in response to these latest efforts of the Canadian Government to concoct allegations against Indian diplomats," it said.

Delhi also defended its High Commissioner Sanjay Kumar Verma, referring to his "distinguished career spanning 36 years".

"The aspersions cast on him by the Government of Canada are ludicrous and deserve to be treated with contempt," it said.

There was no immediate Canadian response to Delhi's statement.

Hardeep Singh Nijjar was shot and killed in June 2023 by two masked gunmen outside a Sikh temple he led in Surrey, British Columbia. He had been a vocal supporter of the Khalistan movement, which demands a separate Sikh homeland, and publicly campaigned for it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyle3py4nko

Indian spy charged

The United States has charged a former Indian intelligence officer for allegedly directing a foiled plot to assassinate an American citizen who advocates for Khalistan - an independent Sikh state carved out of India.

The US Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York said on Thursday that it had registered "murder-for-hire and money laundering charges" against Vikash Yadav for trying to kill Gurpatwant Singh Pannun. The indictment of Yadav, for the first time, implicates the Indian government directly in the attempted assassination of a dissident.

The Indian government has said that it was co-operating with the US' ongoing investigation. It has not responded to the specific charges against Yadav yet.

Earlier this year, Nikhil Gupta, an Indian national also charged in the case, was extradited to the US from a prison in Prague.

Washington has accused Indian agents of involvement in an assassination attempt on Pannun, a dual US-Canadian citizen. India has labeled Pannun a terrorist, though he denies the allegation, claiming to be an activist advocating for Khalistan.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm2949p14k4o
 
Back
Top