The Strange Case Of Jennifer Fergate

[maximus otter]

The fact that she had no blood on her hand seems very remarkable though. If you look at the photo, the pistol is coated yet her hand is clean. Just "one of those things" do you think?

Yes, on the basis of “monkeys/typewriters/Shakespeare”.

The absence of gunshot residue? The pistol was “the wrong way round” in her hand. The ejection port through which the fired case - and much of the residue - is expelled would be facing away from her hand.

maximus otter

 

[maximus otter]

That's as maybe, however it still does not explain the lack of luggage and personnel belongings or any other form of ID

You’re thinking about things in a rational, detached way. Someone contemplating suicide isn’t.

The fact that she was remembered as having given a hotel employee a remarkably high 50kr tip suggests that she was ridding herself of worldly encumbrances. Scandinavians even have a word for it: döstädning.

“5. Gift your unwanted items. When you drop by a friend's house, skip the flowers or food, and bring them a few books you no longer want. Or, gift your grandchild with a treasured item you want him or her to have. Begin the process of giving away your items to people who could use them or may want them.

6. Start with your closet.”

maximus otter

 

[catseye]

That's as maybe, however it still does not explain the lack of luggage and personnel belongings or any other form of ID

Why would anyone go to all that trouble to commit suicide by shooting themselves?

The biggest mystery to me, is that given that this is such a well known case and has been for years how is she still unknown?

If she was contemplating suicide and didn't want to be identified then maybe she just sold all her luggage and passport and gave the money away. I wonder if any street sleepers were asked if they'd been approached either by someone asking if they wanted 'stuff' (clothes, etc) or to be randomly given more money than was usual, and shown her picture?

 

[Robbrent]

You’re thinking about things in a rational, detached way. Someone contemplating suicide isn’t.

The fact that she was remembered as having given a hotel employee a remarkably high 50kr tip suggests that she was ridding herself of worldly encumbrances. Scandinavians even have a word for it: döstädning.

“5. Gift your unwanted items. When you drop by a friend's house, skip the flowers or food, and bring them a few books you no longer want. Or, gift your grandchild with a treasured item you want him or her to have. Begin the process of giving away your items to people who could use them or may want them.

6. Start with your closet.”

maximus otter

I understand that, but I personally doubt it there are so many anomalies in the case again why no identification of a young woman ? I am aware that unidentified bodies turn up but not in hotel rooms, and why go to the most luxury hotel in Oslo just to top yourself?

It's likely that we will never know the answers, suicide is a very convenient verdict for something that someone wants shutting down

 

[maximus otter]

I am aware that unidentified bodies turn up but not in hotel rooms…

The man found in a hotel room​

A male aged between 25 and 30 was found in a hotel room in Margate, on September 27, 1996.

The male had checked into the hotel under the name, “Kirasarawa”, and had asked not to be disturbed.”

https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/28-unidentified-bodies-found-kent-5620459

“41 pills with unidentified body found in hotel”​

https://www.newsy-today.com/41-pill...ion-found-during-investigation-news-360-gulf/

“A woman who checked into a Seattle hotel under the pseudonym "Mary A. Anderson" was found dead in her room by hotel staff on October 11, 1996. She had committed suicide by consuming cyanide. The address and phone number she had provided at check-in was false and she left behind no identification. Searches of missing person reports from across the United States, Canada and Interpol failed to identify her…”

https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_unidentified_decedents_in_Washington#”Mary_Anderson”

That was 90 seconds’ Googling…

maximus otter

 

[hunck]

What a fascinating case, & excellent investigation. So many mysterious details. The man in room opposite’s evidence is odd, but then so many other things are odd. Not mentioned, so presumably there were no shootings in the 24 hours she spent outside the hotel.

With DNA profile I reckon there’ll be developments.

 

[Victory]

No, they didn’t.

It was held to be unusual that the deceased’s firing hand had no gunshot residue on it, but that’s readily explicable.

A fact that is mentioned in the article, but not remarked on, is strongly suggestive of suicide:

“When the weapon was released from the corpse’s hand, a ‘click’ could be heard as the trigger moved towards the forward position."

When a semi-automatic pistol is fired, the shooter has to slightly release pressure on the trigger to enable the trigger to return to its firing position ready for the next shot. This is known as the “trigger reset”. lt seems as though cadaveric spasm had caused the victim’s hand to form a “death grip” on the pistol. My question: If a second party had shot her, then placed the pistol in her hand to make it look like suicide, how did he:

a) Manage to lock her dead fingers around the grip to simulate cadaveric spasm, and - even more crucially;

b) How did he transfer the pistol from his hand to hers without the trigger resetting due to release of pressure on it?

Suicide.

maximus otter

You know weapons more than me.

On the weapon found in her hand, is it possible that someone squeezed her trigger figure, then took their own hand away after this, then cadaveric spasm happened just after death?

 

[maximus otter]

On the weapon found in her hand, is it possible that someone squeezed her trigger figure, then took their own hand away after this, then cadaveric spasm happened just after death?

“Cadaveric spasm is a rare form of muscular stiffening that occurs at the moment of death.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

maximus otter

 

[SimonBurchell]

It's likely that we will never know the answers, suicide is a very convenient verdict for something that someone wants shutting down

As can be seen with the recent spate of wealthy Russians overcome by an uncontrollable urge to throw themselves out of high windows.

 

[Victory]

“Cadaveric spasm is a rare form of muscular stiffening that occurs at the moment of death.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

maximus otter

OK noted, but is it possible that someone put their finger around the deceased's finger and squeezed the finger and trigger together to make it look like suicide?

Or, that the deceased was injected with something to make them go into rigor mortis faster than normal?

On the face of it, as you have described, it looks like cadaveric spasm and suicide.

But could a sophisticated intelligence service make it look as if this happened?

 

[Erinaceus]

I wonder whether the body was examined for possible puncture marks? If something like succinylcholine was injected she would have been paralysed while a killer placed the gun in her hand and used her finger to pull the trigger. It degrades quickly in the body and would have been difficult to detect.

What was thought to have been a test shot into a pillow could have been fired after the murder to create confusion.

 

[maximus otter]

OK noted, but is it possible that someone put their finger around the deceased's finger and squeezed the finger and trigger together to make it look like suicide?

Or, that the deceased was injected with something to make them go into rigor mortis faster than normal?

On the face of it, as you have described, it looks like cadaveric spasm and suicide.

But could a sophisticated intelligence service make it look as if this happened?

TL/DR: No.

Longer version: Why would an advanced intelligence service go to such complex lengths to fake a suicide, when by so doing they made the suicide look suspiciously like a murder? They could just have TWOC-ed a car and run her over, or simply "disappeared" her if she was such a threat to them.

Suicide.

maximus otter

 

[catseye]

TL/DR: No.

Longer version: Why would an advanced intelligence service go to such complex lengths to fake a suicide, when by so doing they made the suicide look suspiciously like a murder? They could just have TWOC-ed a car and run her over, or simply "disappeared" her if she was such a threat to them.

Suicide.

maximus otter

Yep, that's what I think too. She may have wanted to obfuscate her own suicide for the same reasons as booking into a hotel with a false name and disposing of her belongings - if her family DID find her, she may not want them to know it was suicide, for her own reasons. See also Lyle Stevik.

 

[Victory]

TL/DR: No.

Longer version: Why would an advanced intelligence service go to such complex lengths to fake a suicide, when by so doing they made the suicide look suspiciously like a murder? They could just have TWOC-ed a car and run her over, or simply "disappeared" her if she was such a threat to them.

Suicide.

maximus otter

Because a suicide leaves the police not looking for a suspect?

Or because events did not go to plan, and their hand was forced?

 

[catseye]

Because a suicide leaves the police not looking for a suspect?

Or because events did not go to plan, and their hand was forced?

But in that case why not make the 'suicide' look absolutely like a cast iron suicide. I'm not sure intelligence agencies are really all that worried about the police.

 

[Victory]

But in that case why not make the 'suicide' look absolutely like a cast iron suicide. I'm not sure intelligence agencies are really all that worried about the police.

There is no such thing as "Cast Iron" if it happens without a witness.
Someone will always have the opportunity to doubt it is suicide.

Your second point is not correct.

If you remember the Pimlico "Spy in the Bag", some of the police publically accused the intelligence services of removing evidence and obstructing the investigation.

 

[PeteS]

Spy in the bag case shows how you can't believe anything the intelligence services say or do. That case will never be solved, despite the fact that a defector maintained that Russian sis did it. It's a weird world they inhabit and I'm glad that a friend's daughter got rejected for a job in that sphere. The Police may have criticised those involved but nothing came of it as you would expect. Law unto themselves they are.

 

[catseye]

There is no such thing as "Cast Iron" if it happens without a witness.
Someone will always have the opportunity to doubt it is suicide.

Your second point is not correct.

If you remember the Pimlico "Spy in the Bag", some of the police publically accused the intelligence services of removing evidence and obstructing the investigation.

Yes, maybe I should have said that the intelligence services don't care. What are the police going to do? In the body in the bag case they said a lot about the case being obstructed but they didn't, or couldn't charge anyone, name anyone or even do anything.

 

[Robbrent]

The thing is, suicide tends to be a very open and shut case, not much investigation is needed or carried out, if the perpetrators didn't want questions to be asked it certainly pays to make it look like a suicide, lets just say that the police at the time had dealt with this as a murder in the first place, even back then forensics were quite tight the scene would have been secured etc

I still can't work out how she has remained unidentified, with it being such a well know case, the only thing I can imagine is the photo reconstructions or the supposed post mortem pictures are not actually arcuate representations of her

 

[catseye]

I still can't work out how she has remained unidentified, with it being such a well know case, the only thing I can imagine is the photo reconstructions or the supposed post mortem pictures are not actually arcuate representations of her

Maybe she was sufficiently estranged from family/partner/everyone that even if they recognised her, they didn't want to claim her? Maybe fearing they'd be on the hook for funeral expenses (plus any other expenses that she may have incurred during her hotel stay).

 

[PeteS]

There seems to be a surprising number of people who die in hotel rooms. I guess those who end their lives deliberately see the room as anonymous but realise that their body will be discovered quickly. So sad.

 

[Robbrent]

Maybe she was sufficiently estranged from family/partner/everyone that even if they recognised her, they didn't want to claim her? Maybe fearing they'd be on the hook for funeral expenses (plus any other expenses that she may have incurred during her hotel stay).

Of course that's possible, but she was a well dressed and it would seem well educated (spoke fluent German and English) she had the wherewithal to get a clean handgun, so no one anywhere in Europe knew her?

She was also familiar with Belgium

The other possibility is that we are being mislead as to the DNA results, perhaps she is from South or North America (she could be from there and the DNA come from recent ancestors)

I honestly believe people are being deliberately put off the scent so to speak, and it starts with her identification once that is known lots of the jig saw pieces start to fit together

 

[catseye]

Of course that's possible, but she was a well dressed and it would seem well educated (spoke fluent German and English) she had the wherewithal to get a clean handgun, so no one anywhere in Europe knew her?

She was also familiar with Belgium

The other possibility is that we are being mislead as to the DNA results, perhaps she is from South or North America (she could be from there and the DNA come from recent ancestors)

I honestly believe people are being deliberately put off the scent so to speak, and it starts with her identification once that is known lots of the jig saw pieces start to fit together

But if she had been a spy, then surely whoever she was working for or with would have a fake indentity for her? They then send in some people pretending to be her parents, take possession of the body and - there, problem disappears. NOT identifying her raises more question than they would want.

 

[Kondoru]

I suspect professionals would be tidy.

 

[Robbrent]

But if she had been a spy, then surely whoever she was working for or with would have a fake indentity for her? They then send in some people pretending to be her parents, take possession of the body and - there, problem disappears. NOT identifying her raises more question than they would want.

You make a good point, but it may not have anything to do with spies, it could have been criminal

Again I make the point, a young well dressed educated woman dies in a hotel room, will little or no possessions, a fake identity, no passport, the case is well publicized around Europe and the world and yet still no one comes forward to claim they know who she is, again if she's identified the parts of the jigsaw will fit together.

It could have been suicide but that does not solve the other puzzling aspects of the case

 

[catseye]

You make a good point, but it may not have anything to do with spies, it could have been criminal

Again I make the point, a young well dressed educated woman dies in a hotel room, will little or no possessions, a fake identity, no passport, the case is well publicized around Europe and the world and yet still no one comes forward to claim they know who she is, again if she's identified the parts of the jigsaw will fit together.

It could have been suicide but that does not solve the other puzzling aspects of the case

I agree. And it's the fact that it's puzzling that keeps us talking about it. There must be thousands of cases (well, maybe not thousands, but a fair few) of people who die in odd circumstances but when they are identified it's as thought the case is closed. The circumstances remain 'odd' and often inexplicable, but the fact that we know who the person was seems to stop the case from being mysterious.

 

[Floyd]

Your second point is not correct.

If you remember the Pimlico "Spy in the Bag", some of the police publically accused the intelligence services of removing evidence and obstructing the investigation.

I'm not sure intelligence agencies are really all that worried about the police.

I think that what Catseye said (above) is quite correct V - whether they were accused by the police or not, they have no concern or fear of them.

 

[maximus otter]

You make a good point, but it may not have anything to do with spies, it could have been criminal

Again I make the point, a young well dressed educated woman dies in a hotel room, will little or no possessions, a fake identity, no passport, the case is well publicized around Europe and the world and yet still no one comes forward to claim they know who she is, again if she's identified the parts of the jigsaw will fit together.

It could have been suicide but that does not solve the other puzzling aspects of the case

In the UK in 2020 there were 5,224 suicides. If 99.5% of them were open-and-shut cases, that would still leave 26 for people to puzzle about.

No one's life is totally open and conventional; everyone has secrets; everyone occasionally does things that are inexplicable, random, out of character.

If someone's determined that an event shall be a mystery, then it can be made so.

maximus otter

 

[Robbrent]

In the UK in 2020 there were 5,224 suicides. If 99.5% of them were open-and-shut cases, that would still leave 26 for people to puzzle about.

No one's life is totally open and conventional; everyone has secrets; everyone occasionally does things that are inexplicable, random, out of character.

If someone's determined that an event shall be a mystery, then it can be made so.

maximus otter

I have no doubt

 

[Victory]

I'm not sure intelligence agencies are really all that worried about the police.

I think that what Catseye said (above) is quite correct V - whether they were accused by the police or not, they have no concern or fear of them.

The intelligence agencies know that they can pull rank on the police, or at least get away with tactics that are unusual.

But they also know they have to act fast and, in the case of the Pimlico body in the bag, remove evidence.

Otherwise experienced detectives will have a fair chance of solving the crime.