The Thread Of Sherlock Holmes

EnolaGaia

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... When a hand grenade flys into the room, he has to ask Mycroft what it is. That's a line for Watson surely? ...
The main problems I have with the drone / grenade bit are:

(1) We see only the drone with the sort of geodesic egg-ish grenade device sitting atop it. Where was the music (Euros' recorded song) coming from?

(2) Mycroft eventually demonstrated he knew exactly what the grenade was, he recognized its arming indicator on the top, and he knew that this indicator's state was 'off' if unlit and 'on' if lit up. If Mycroft was 'the smart one', why didn't he grasp all this as the drone moved in from the kitchen and tell the others to evacuate ASAP?
 

EnolaGaia

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... I thought the premise of one last puzzle was good but rather than having it set in the prison, she could have had Sherlock running around London, solving all sorts of cases or problems that elluded him over the years. It feels like they maybe spent so much on the set that they had to use it a lot.
Once we learned that Euros had apparently been able to come and go at will (to / from Sherrinford) I, too, began to have some cognitive dissonance relating to locations.

It didn't surprise me so much that Euros played out her standard mad super-villain games at Sherrinford, because that would be the location at which she seemingly had the most control and the highest degree of privacy / security. However, it did cross my mind that someone as twisted as she was portrayed may have wanted to stage more of her plan at the Holmes' childhood home.

The biggest problem I had was that Euros had spent a relatively pleasant day with Sherlock (masquerading as Culverton Smith's daughter) in London, but this experience didn't mitigate her desire to subject Sherlock to her deadly end game. She received what she wanted - Sherlock's attention and time. It made me wonder why she'd never attempted such direct contact before, and / or why she hadn't planned to extend it beyond the single encounter. It also made me wonder whether the time spent with Sherlock had aggravated her desire to humiliate him and set her off. However, after multiple viewings I can't discern any clues relating to connections between the fake-daughter day and the eventual trials.

Another issue relating to locations ... When Moriarity arrives at Sherrinford he whistles, and we hear a minor uproar from out of frame (presumably reaction from inmates). Unless I missed something, this was the only clue that there actually was anyone other than Euros incarcerated within the Sherrinford complex, and then only at the time of Moriarity's visit (ostensibly 5 years earlier).

... And while I'm at it ... Do we have a firm basis for estimating the temporal sequencing of Moriarity's Sherrinford visit versus his appearances in the earlier series? I can't figure out where 5 years into the past would place the visit in relation to 'story-time'.
 

Peripart

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Good points, there - you've clearly spent a lot of time thinking about this episode since the weekend! So have I, but it's still mainly annoyance at having given up the second half of Endeavour...
 

blessmycottonsocks

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How could Euros slip out of the top-security prison so easily?
And throwing yourselves out of a 2nd floor window with barely a scratch?

Oh perlease!

All I can say is please don't let Gatiss and Moffatt anywhere near the long-awaited reboot of Quatermass, or they'll turn the crotchety old professor into some kung-fu kicking, transgender superhero.
 

CarlosTheDJ

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Do you guys all watch Doctor Who and ask "well, there's no way that blue box could be bigger on the inside. It defies the laws of physics." ?

:huh:

Just imagine that Sherlock takes place in a parallel universe, then you can just enjoy it for what it is. Sunday night entertainment.

I'l happily admit that I'm very, very easily entertained though. I watch Antiques Roadtrip and Pointless every day and I'm not a student, retired or unemployed. :)
 

Anonymous-50446

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Do you guys all watch Doctor Who and ask "well, there's no way that blue box could be bigger on the inside. It defies the laws of physics." ?

:huh:

Just imagine that Sherlock takes place in a parallel universe, then you can just enjoy it for what it is. Sunday night entertainment.

I'l happily admit that I'm very, very easily entertained though. I watch Antiques Roadtrip and Pointless every day and I'm not a student, retired or unemployed. :)
Good point. While I didn't think it the most tightly plotted or credible of the series, it hardly makes sense to criticise it on the basis of comparison with a set of fictional works written 100 years ago.
 

Heckler

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It does if the show is called Sherlock and has a character in it who is called Sherlock Holmes and is a detective, then comparing it to the original stories is a valid comparison to make.

If you want to write about a clever bloke who solves crimes and fights international assassins and has a sister with magical X-Men powers then crack on, but don't pretend it's either in the spirit of one of Conan Doyle's stories or indeed a clever pastiche of one, it's really not.
 

Anonymous-50446

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It does if the show is called Sherlock and has a character in it who is called Sherlock Holmes and is a detective, then comparing it to the original stories is a valid comparison to make.
They're still both fiction so arguing one set of fictions 'is not right' compared with another set of fictions doesn't stand to reason for me.
 

Heckler

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They aren't making exact adaptions of the Conan Doyle stories, they never pretended to and the early stories took the idea of Holmes and kept to the spirit and feeling of the stories, this last series seems to abandoned that and just stuck in a clever bloke that things happen to. I'm not howling in a Star Wars fanboy way that these are not canon, rather that when you set out to make a pastiche of a very well known set of stories you can't just decide to abandon everything that made those stories what they were.

Coming soon Agatha Christie's Miss Marple: Marple an orphan brought up in the far east by mutated ninja squirrels brings her own brand of justice to the sleepy town of St Mary Mead. See not right is it?
 

Quake42

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They aren't making exact adaptions of the Conan Doyle stories, they never pretended to and the early stories took the idea of Holmes and kept to the spirit and feeling of the stories, this last series seems to abandoned that and just stuck in a clever bloke that things happen to.
Exactly.

You don't need to make faithful adaptations of the Conan Doyle stories. You can bring Holmes & Watson - or any other classic characters - in to a slightly different timeline or environment. So updating the characters to modern-day London can absolutely work. Hell, a sci-fi Holmes & Watson could work if that was the setting!

The problem with the last few episodes is that they make no sense even in the updated environment. Are we watching Sherlock Holmes solve crime, or are we watching some generic action hero who happens to be smarter than the average?
 

Min Bannister

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You don't need to make faithful adaptations of the Conan Doyle stories. You can bring Holmes & Watson - or any other classic characters - in to a slightly different timeline or environment. So updating the characters to modern-day London can absolutely work.
I agree. I did not watch all of it, but what I did see of the US version with Lucy Liu in I enjoyed.
 

CarlosTheDJ

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I read an interesting thing somewhere, I'll see if I can find it...basically Mr Moffatt and Mr Gatiss say they've unintentionally created a new origin story to the characters, and the end of this series leaves the characters in a similar situation/mindset to the way they started in the books.

Found it!

“What we think has happened, and it is entirely accidental, is that our original intention with this series was to go back to the beginning and see themselves as younger men,” says Gatiss. “And start on the first meeting which is never done and restore to its factory settings and see where we got to. But I think what has actually happened is that we have now done the story of how Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson you’ve always known became those men.


“And it’s actually weirdly a backstory. We never intended it to be but the reason we leave it at Rathbone Place is that if that actually we do come back and we would love to come back, we could absolutely very easily start it with the knock on the door and Sherlock saying to John, ‘Do you want to come out and play?’


“They have become the heroes we always knew them to be and we’ve accidentally done their backstory.”


https://www.buzzfeed.com/scottybryan/that-episode-was-like-drinking-ten-cups-of-coffee
 

Analogue Boy

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Going back to the original Holmes, it's amazing to think how, as a fictional character he and author Conan Doyle popularised forensic science and investigation. That's a bit different to someone who fails to notice the obvious in front of his face. While Who lives (I think) in two universes now, Sherlock remains rooted in our reality. Now that reality can sometimes be bizarre and extraordinary but the visual clues are those of TV and film fiction rather than a setting rooted in reality. Exhibit A. The little red-haired girl on the plane. We were led to think one way but that scenario never existed. At least that's my understanding of it. By moving location to a secret island bunker, we're now in the realm of the movie Inception. Which has been done by the way. (I mention this because Dr.Strange borrows heavily from the fx in that film).

Exhibit B. We have a superthinker who solves problems in his Mind Palace. Yet he doesn't know who Thatcher was. Therefore he has a whole section of world history missing. Also the cultural references, motives of a large swathe of people, their place in society etc.

It was a stupid aside written to make a political point that chips away at the logic of the character.

I could go on with what's gone wrong with this series but here's a thought.
I'd love to see Reece Sheersmith and Steve Pemberton have a go at a version for Inside No 221b.
 
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Analogue Boy

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I read an interesting thing somewhere, I'll see if I can find it...basically Mr Moffatt and Mr Gatiss say they've unintentionally created a new origin story to the characters, and the end of this series leaves the characters in a similar situation/mindset to the way they started in the books.

Found it!

“What we think has happened, and it is entirely accidental, is that our original intention with this series was to go back to the beginning and see themselves as younger men,” says Gatiss. “And start on the first meeting which is never done and restore to its factory settings and see where we got to. But I think what has actually happened is that we have now done the story of how Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson you’ve always known became those men.


“And it’s actually weirdly a backstory. We never intended it to be but the reason we leave it at Rathbone Place is that if that actually we do come back and we would love to come back, we could absolutely very easily start it with the knock on the door and Sherlock saying to John, ‘Do you want to come out and play?’


“They have become the heroes we always knew them to be and we’ve accidentally done their backstory.”


https://www.buzzfeed.com/scottybryan/that-episode-was-like-drinking-ten-cups-of-coffee
Post justification. The refuge of the tortured artist.
 

GNC

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How could Euros slip out of the top-security prison so easily?
And throwing yourselves out of a 2nd floor window with barely a scratch?

Oh perlease!

All I can say is please don't let Gatiss and Moffatt anywhere near the long-awaited reboot of Quatermass, or they'll turn the crotchety old professor into some kung-fu kicking, transgender superhero.
Gatiss was in the reboot of Quatermass from about ten years ago. Oh, and Euros could come and go as she pleased, she was running the prison with her supermind.
 

Xanatic*

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Do you guys all watch Doctor Who and ask "well, there's no way that blue box could be bigger on the inside. It defies the laws of physics." ?

:huh:

Just imagine that Sherlock takes place in a parallel universe, then you can just enjoy it for what it is. Sunday night entertainment.

I'l happily admit that I'm very, very easily entertained though. I watch Antiques Roadtrip and Pointless every day and I'm not a student, retired or unemployed. :)
Gravity bends space and time, Einstein showed that. It could be that a strong enough gravitational field could cause a piece of spacetime to fold in on itself, creating a kind of self-contained universe. Hawking has suggested that black holes coud in essence be such baby universes. The tardis is also said to contain a collapsing star at it's heart. Likely it's a type of singularity around which this baby universe is created, with the tardis door being a gate between our universe and this smaller self-contained universe.
The last Sherlock episode was nonsense though.
 

EnolaGaia

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I agree. I did not watch all of it, but what I did see of the US version with Lucy Liu in I enjoyed.
Yes - Elementary (on CBS) is in its fifth season. After having been moved to Sunday @ 10:00 pm Eastern this season, the ratings / viewer stats have dropped. This is a time slot that CBS has previously used as the hospice for waning series.

To add insult to injury, the last 3 weeks (when Elementary returned from its holiday hiatus) its new time slot put it into direct conflict with PBS' broadcast of Sherlock. :banghead:

I saw an online entertainment article that suggested CBS may pull the plug on the series after this season ends this spring.

Anyway ... Here are some comparative comments for anyone unfamiliar with Elementary ...

Elementary is, like Sherlock, a contemporary 're-imagining' of Holmes. It's far less committed to replicating Doyle's minutiae and stories than Sherlock, so in some ways it seems farther afield from traditional Holmesiana. On the other hand, it's been free to focus on solving specific mysteries each week, and it has evaded becoming encumbered by the overarching mythically-correct baggage that some find tedious in Sherlock.

Johnny Lee Miller's Sherlock is more twitchy and fiery than Cumberbatch's cool and steely version. Miller's Holmes carries much baggage from past addiction(s); Cumberbatch's can still employ getting FUBAR as a tactical gambit somehow kept at arm's length. Both have problems understanding and relating to 'regular' folks. Miller reveals his deductive leaps standing rigid and stock-still like an autistic person reciting with effort, whereas Cumberbatch wows the rubes with grandiose movements and gestures.

In a smilar vein, Freeman's and Liu's takes on Watson are entirely distinct from one another. Freeman's is a friend who, via experiential osmosis, is a capable associate sleuth himself. Liu's was explicitly a freestanding detective-in-training under Miller's Sherlock's tutelage who has matured to the point she works her own cases.

I frankly like them both as much as any other series I've been committed to, but I treat them as completely distinct and separate takes on the re-imagined Holmes, and I don't mistake either of them for the traditional versions of Holmes (among which, IMHO, Jeremy Brett still reigns supreme).

Still, I admit to having and exercising a preference if push comes to shove in scheduling (as in the past 3 Sundays). Make me choose between a new Elementary and a new Sherlock, and I'll choose Sherlock every time. At times, and in some ways, Series 4 tested this preference to an uncomfortable extent, but it remains intact.
 

Anonymous-50446

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, and it has evaded becoming encumbered by the overarching mythically-correct baggage that some find tedious in Sherlock.
This is the problem for me. I don't want "overarching mythically-correct baggage", I really want good stories solved in a Holmesian way. Otherwise it become a kind of luvvie soap opera and it 's noticeable that UK writers don't often seem to be able to avoid doing this. I don't know whether this is a function of UK actors 'really wanting to do proper acting' instead of (say) 100 episodes of a hit drama, or what it is.

Which is why nearly all the good long running drama series are from America (and some from Canada).
 

MrRING

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Forget Sherlock Holmes... what we need more of is Sherlock Gnomes! :pop:

 

sherbetbizarre

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Netflix turned down the chance to buy ‘Holmes & Watson’ because it was so bad
Netflix reportedly turned down the chance to buy Holmes & Watson, after poor test screenings meant that Sony was keen to offload the ill-fated movie.

The Sherlock Holmes comedy, which stars Will Ferrell and John C.Reilly, has received overwhelmingly negative reviews since it was released on Boxing Day – along widespread reports of audience walkouts.
https://www.nme.com/news/film/netfl...y-holmes-watson-because-it-was-so-bad-2425248
 

stu neville

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Holmes & Watson is rapidly shaping up to be the most panned movie of the decade. By all accounts the underwhelming trailer contains all of the jokes, and I have one, third-hand user-review: "It's utter shit."
 

henry

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what compounds the disappointment is that while ferrell is mediocre at best, JCR s a fantastic talent, comedy and otherwise ...
 

stu neville

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That's unfair, I think - Ferrell is good at what he does, but that's a narrow spectrum. Ron Burgundy and Elf are funny. Agree JCR is a real talent. Given the rest of the cast (Brydon, Coogan at al aside Ralph Fiennes is a brilliant comedian) it sounds a colossal waste of time, energy and abiiity.
 

Naughty_Felid

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That's unfair, I think - Ferrell is good at what he does, but that's a narrow spectrum. Ron Burgundy and Elf are funny. Agree JCR is a real talent. Given the rest of the cast (Brydon, Coogan at al aside Ralph Fiennes is a brilliant comedian) it sounds a colossal waste of time, energy and abiiity.
Step Brothers is a brilliant movie. Both Ferrell and JCR have a blast. Ferrell seems to be hitting that Steve Martin period where a lot of what he does is just rehashing stuff he's done before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_Brothers_(film)#Critical_reception
 
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escargot

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From yesterday's Telegraph. New 50p coins, including a Sir Arthur Conan Doyle design.
The coins depict the works rather than the people.

new 50p.jpg
 

henry

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ouch ! he was no jeremy brett thats for sure
 
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