The Thread Of Sherlock Holmes

[Lb8535]

In the Jeremy Brett TV series, there is a section were Holmes disappears for a time then reappears to Watson, on the moor dressed as a beggar.

I do think it's in the book and not in relation to the moors, he and Watson are in London, although I don't recall which story. It might be the first instance of Watson finding out about Holmes' disguises. There definitely is one story as noted above about a middle-class Londoner who discovers that he can earn more by dressing up as a beggar than at his former profession. At the end Holmes says that he will keep the secret to avoid disgrace but the man must stop doing this. I never understood what business it was of his. Stories about people dressing up to appear more needy are old, going back at least to Beggar's Opera, where Mr. Peachum has a business managing the beggars. I don't know if this is a London urban legend or it if really happened. I have several friends who are musicians who report good earnings as students playing in the subway, and one young cousin who attempts to make a living as a sax player who took to busking on the streets of Brooklyn during the pandemic when club gigs stopped.

 

[Lb8535]

If it was Holmes as a beggar, you're probably thinking of a movie or TV dramatization rather than the canonical Conan Doyle stories.

Here's a listing of Holmes' disguises from the original canon:

https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php/Sherlock_Holmes#Disguises

... and here's a key to the story title codes used within the listing:

http://www.bestofsherlock.com/ref/rfab.htm

I've looked at the list, and I wonder if the problem is that the listing is of what he was presenting himself as when begging. So sure that it's in a story. Good excuse to re read the whole thing. Let you know in a year or so.

 

[Nosmo King]

I do think it's in the book and not in relation to the moors, he and Watson are in London, although I don't recall which story. It might be the first instance of Watson finding out about Holmes' disguises. There definitely is one story as noted above about a middle-class Londoner who discovers that he can earn more by dressing up as a beggar than at his former profession. At the end Holmes says that he will keep the secret to avoid disgrace but the man must stop doing this. I never understood what business it was of his. Stories about people dressing up to appear more needy are old, going back at least to Beggar's Opera, where Mr. Peachum has a business managing the beggars. I don't know if this is a London urban legend or it if really happened. I have several friends who are musicians who report good earnings as students playing in the subway, and one young cousin who attempts to make a living as a sax player who took to busking on the streets of Brooklyn during the pandemic when club gigs stopped.

I found this but the site it's from is paywalled so I wont bother linking it.

"Disguised as a beggar, he not only discovers the possible hiding place of the dog, but also the hiding place of Seldon the escaped convict and his relationship to the servants at the hall. He implies that he will be available only if worse comes to worse, but he is, in fact, present during the entire time."

 

[WanderingFox]

Closest I can think of to Holmes as a beggar is the raggedy old bookseller disguise from The Empty House, which he dispenses with at the most dramatic moment possible to reveal to Watson he's alive, well, and not resting with Moriarty at the bottom of the Reichenbach Falls. Watson also stumbled across him undercover at an opium den, in suitably rough attire, early on in The Man With the Twisted Lip.

Not beggars per se, but relatively close, and conflation is certainly a thing.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Yes I think there is. Willing to re-read Hound if we think it's there.

I checked the full text of the novel yesterday. There's no mention of a beggar disguise (or for that matter, beggars / begging) within it. Holmes' disguises are mentioned, but none of them are beggars.

 

[BlackPeter]

I checked the full text of the novel yesterday. There's no mention of a beggar disguise (or for that matter, beggars / begging) within it. Holmes' disguises are mentioned, but none of them are beggars.

Short story I was thinking of Holmes was not disguised as beggar man he came across had lost his job (can't recall how/why) and in desperation set up as beggar and discovered he could make lots of money doing it!

 

[Lb8535]

I found this but the site it's from is paywalled so I wont bother linking it.

"Disguised as a beggar, he not only discovers the possible hiding place of the dog, but also the hiding place of Seldon the escaped convict and his relationship to the servants at the hall. He implies that he will be available only if worse comes to worse, but he is, in fact, present during the entire time."

Hound of the B.

 

[PeteS]

I checked the full text of the novel yesterday. There's no mention of a beggar disguise (or for that matter, beggars / begging) within it. Holmes' disguises are mentioned, but none of them are beggars.

Was Holmes not disguised as a beggar in "The Return of Sherlock Holmes". I think tv series portrayed him as such in that story, but could be misremembering.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Was Holmes not disguised as a beggar in "The Return of Sherlock Holmes". I think tv series portrayed him as such in that story, but could be misremembering.

One or more TV / movie adaptations may have portrayed him as a beggar, but within the original stories (as Wandering Fox noted above) he was disguised as a bookseller when he surfaced after being presumed dead.

 

[Yithian]

Was Holmes not disguised as a beggar in "The Return of Sherlock Holmes". I think tv series portrayed him as such in that story, but could be misremembering.

If I recall correctly, near the start of 'The Man with the Twisted Lip' Holmes is found by Watson in an opium den, disguised as an old man in order to gather information for another case.

The eponymous case, however, features one Neville St. Clair, an indebted former actor who is living a double life as a profitable beggar and a not so successful businessman.

Perhaps you have conflated a few Strands.

 

[WanderingFox]

I may just have hit upon one of those conflated Strands: The Norwood Builder, more particularly the ITV, Jeremy Brett adaptation, which expands the story. In Doyle's original, Oldacre burns what Holmes believed to be animal flesh to ash to simulate a murder victim, whereas in the Brett version, Oldacre lured, killed and burned a tramp, a ruse Holmes pieces together partly through a secret sign left outside Oldacre's house, and partly by disguising himself as a tramp to gather information.

Since, even 30-odd years on, Brett and Holmes remain inseperable for many (myself included), and the Brett adaptations were known for being more faithful than most (even down to matching as closely as possible the depictions of characters in the Paget illustrations), the potential for conflation seems strong.

 

[PeteByrdie]

I may just have hit upon one of those conflated Strands: The Norwood Builder, more particularly the ITV, Jeremy Brett adaptation, which expands the story. In Doyle's original, Oldacre burns what Holmes believed to be animal flesh to ash to simulate a murder victim, whereas in the Brett version, Oldacre lured, killed and burned a tramp, a ruse Holmes pieces together partly through a secret sign left outside Oldacre's house, and party by disguising himself as a tramp to gather information.

Since, even 30-odd years on, Brett and Holmes remain inseperable for many (myself included), and the Brett adaptations were known for being more faithful than most (even down to matching as closely as possible the depictions of characters in the Paget illustrations), the potential for conflation seems strong.

I have the box set. I'll watch the episode tomorrow if I get time. It's years since I've watched them.

 

[Floyd1]

Watched the Basil Rathbone 'Terror by Night- 1946) the other eve. Some terrible acting, but you've got to love Lestrade. Being a working class type he has to H-drop and H-add as well (as we all know that all the 'working classes' do this). ''Allo Olmes, ow Har you?'' Brilliant.

 

[Lb8535]

I checked the full text of the novel yesterday. There's no mention of a beggar disguise (or for that matter, beggars / begging) within it. Holmes' disguises are mentioned, but none of them are beggars.

OK but I'm not thinking of film, which I have watched little of, and I still think it's there. Will check in after Sign of the Four.

 

[Lb8535]

OK but I'm not thinking of film, which I have watched little of, and I still think it's there. Will check in after Sign of the Four.

I have finished re-reading the collected works and have found no instance of Holmes disguising himself as a beggar. So I seem to have created a false memory.

 

[EnolaGaia]

I have finished re-reading the collected works ...

It only took you 3.5 months rather than the "year or so" you first estimated!

 

[Lb8535]

It only took you 3.5 months rather than the "year or so" you first estimated!

I have to admit skimming over Valley of Fear and Study in Scarlet, which I suspect were padded out for serial magazine publication. But I did skim every possible page in them that was not an interminable third-person account of the US.

 

[PeteByrdie]

I have to admit skimming over Valley of Fear and Study in Scarlet, which I suspect were padded out for serial magazine publication. But I did skim every possible page in them that was not an interminable third-person account of the US.

I do remember finding Valley of Fear a bit of a slog.

 

[Rushfan62]

I have finished re-reading the collected works and have found no instance of Holmes disguising himself as a beggar. So I seem to have created a false memory.

Are you perhaps thinking of the adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton ? Holmes, disguises himself as a plumber and even gets engaged to a maid in order to learn the layout of Milvertons house

 

[Lb8535]

Are you perhaps thinking of the adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton ? Holmes, disguises himself as a plumber and even gets engaged to a maid in order to learn the layout of Milvertons house

If you look above one of our posters posted a data sheet of Holmes' disguises. No beggar. I could have sworn...

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

If you look above one of our posters posted a data sheet of Holmes' disguises. No beggar. I could have sworn...

!!! I too could have sworn that Holmes was disguised as a beggar somewhere. If this is not the case, then it is an invented memory, probably to cover an alien abduction.

 

[Mythopoeika]

 

[ramonmercado]

Enola Holmes: About Sherlock's younger sister Enola (Millie Bobby Brown). A bit teenagerish but still well worth watching, a fun adventure. Enola's mother (Helena Bonham Carter) disappears and this brings Mycroft and Sherlock back into her life. The stuffy Mycroft wants to send her to a Finishing School run by Miss Harrison (Fiona Shaw) but Enola runs away. Meeting up with a young aristocrat who is also fleeing from pushy relatives she gets involved in great capers. Political conspiracies, Suffragette agitation and more. We mostly see Carter in flashbacks but she has trained Enola in martial arts. Sherlock (Henry Cavill) is restrained in this adventure, Enola taking the lead but hopefully he'll crop up again in future adventures. Directed by Harry Bradbeer (Killing Eve), adapted by Jack Thorne (His Dark Materials) from the novel by Nancy Springer. On Netflix. 8/10.

Enola Holmes 2: Enola is back and so is Sherlock, indeed he meets two canon characters for the first time in this adventure. But it;s Enola's film as her love interest/sidekick lord Tewkesbury also returns. This time Enola tries to track down a missing match girl but soon finds herself caught up in a murder. A comedy of manners and social commentary (fittingly one of the characters is named Cicely) but also an adventure where Enola gets caught up in a prison break and encounters intrigue, corruption and hypocrisy among the upper classes. once again Enola is pretty nifty with her fists. The historical background is spot on, set in the period leading up ro the historic Match Girls Strike. Directed by Harry Bradbeer from a screenplay by Jack Thorne. On Netflix. 8/10.

 

[Stormkhan]

I follow a You Tuber, who is a trained stage-fighter. She was asked about the fight scenes in Enola.
She tried out the various moves in period costume, with and without corsets and stays. The verdict was it was tough, uncomfortable but possible, especially if the woman was fighting for her safety.

 

[Spookdaddy]

I have finished re-reading the collected works and have found no instance of Holmes disguising himself as a beggar. So I seem to have created a false memory.

In The Man with the Twisted Lip Holmes disguises himself in order to infiltrate an opium den, on the hunt for a man who - it turns out - disguises himself as a beggar. I wonder if that combination is how the image gets implanted in some peoples imaginations.

I don't think there's any suggestion that the former's disguise is that of a beggar - just whatever it is that passes him off as an opium smoker. I don't suppose that there's any real standard for how an opium smoker of the time might dress - but I suspect that TV and film adaptations plump for the bedraggled street dweller look. Which may well add to any confusion.

 

[charliebrown]

I was really surprised that Enola Holmes Movie 2 was based on true events at the Bryant & May March factory, Bow, London,

The horrible working conditions lead to the English “ Match Girl Strike “ of 1888.

These women were expected to work 14 hour days, unjustly pay docks, unclean work stations, and cheaper white phosphorus causing bone necrosis.

The strike failed, but in 1891 the Salvation Army came to help out as much as possible.

In 1910 the House of Commons stopped white phosphorus in England.

 

[Zeke Newbold]

So it appears that Colin Baker has follwed the foosteps of Tom Baker and appeared as the iconic sleuth in `The Hound of the Baskervilles`.

Colin Baker must be one of my favourite actors - I think his Sixth Doctor was (and is) amuch misunderstood and underrated interprertation of that role but I really can't see him as Mr Holmes. As Inspector Morse by all means - that would work, but Holmes no.

He has the voice, but does he have the looks? - as Shania Twain might have said.

Has a anybody seen the production?

 

[Mythopoeika]

So it appears that Colin Baker has follwed the foosteps of Tom Baker and appeared as the iconic sleuth in `The Hound of the Baskervilles`.

Colin Baker must be one of my favourite actors - I think his Sixth Doctor was (and is) amuch misunderstood and underrated interprertation of that role but I really can't see him as Mr Holmes. As Inspector Morse by all means - that would work, but Holmes no.

He has the voice, but does he have the looks? - as Shania Twain might have said.

Has a anybody seen the production?

He's got the looks to be Watson, not Holmes.

 

[Stormkhan]

Agreed.
Acting ability notwithstanding, Holmes was always described as hawkish, angular in face with a tall, slim yet muscular physique.
When casting, I'd always recommend the Sidney Paget illustrations for the story. Interpretation, yes, but also friend of Conan Doyle so would be corrected by the author.

 

[gordonrutter]

So it appears that Colin Baker has follwed the foosteps of Tom Baker and appeared as the iconic sleuth in `The Hound of the Baskervilles`.

Colin Baker must be one of my favourite actors - I think his Sixth Doctor was (and is) amuch misunderstood and underrated interprertation of that role but I really can't see him as Mr Holmes. As Inspector Morse by all means - that would work, but Holmes no.

He has the voice, but does he have the looks? - as Shania Twain might have said.

Has a anybody seen the production?

It is a radio play with a live reading on stage.