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The UFO Community Still Believes—And Science Is Starting To Listen

eburacum said:
Well, it seems entirely likely that no human has ever met with an extraterrestrial being of any kind. None of the accounts are convincing or have any evidence at all to back them up.
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There are many many such stories, but if you don't wish to believe them that's entirely your pre-rogative. In a way it's far more comforting to disregard them or disbelieve them.

For most people on earth it's probably very much the same. Usually there is a tipping point though and I expect, like Greta Thunberg and Climate Change, it will come from an unexpected source.
 
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I know all about these 'many, many' stories; I've been reading them for fifty years. None are convincing in the least.
 
Just for the sake of a good discussion...I would challenge Fahrenheit 451 to post his favorite case of ET encounter or visit so we can deconstruct it to see if it 'qualifies' as true alien contact.
:)
 
dr wu said:
Just for the sake of a good discussion...I would challenge Fahrenheit 451 to post his favorite case of ET encounter or visit so we can deconstruct it to see if it 'qualifies' as true alien contact.
:)
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Hear, hear !

Is there a current MUFON member on this site ? If so, please identify yourself.

(By 'conversation' is necessary)

INT21.
 
I am not going to jump in the witness stand for this one, so please make any observations to the readers of the Forum not me. I am not going under cross-examination! Like all these matters, those with a hard held opinion are unlikely to change it.

The case I consider worthy of consideration is that of Linda Napolitano and the then UN General Secretary, Perez Dr Cuellar. A good start point (with links and some evidence) is here:

https://www.exopolitics.org/was-un-...d-by-aliens-in-1989-to-prevent-et-disclosure/
 
I don't think anyone was going to jump on you....the case was to be the issue.
But at any rate.... IMHO that case has more holes than Swiss cheese and has been discussed many times and to the best of my knowledge (I read many pieces including several of the original books and articles on it back in the day) it has never been proven or verified in any way...and several of the players involved were shown to not exist or to be frauds. And I'm referring to the alleged 'secret service agents' that supposedly contacted Napolitano(Cortile) and Hopkins. It's been so long since I read the details of the case (and this one was convoluted to say the least) that I simply don't recall enough to analyze it without rereading the articles.
Exopolitics is a pro believer web site as is Salla.....so that source of information has to be looked at with a grain of salt.

This is by far the best 'deconstruction' I have ever read of this case from the book The Trickster by George Hansen. It is not a short read but well worth it if one wants to see how complex this case was. btw....the whole book is a fascinating read.
http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/LindaCortileCase.htm
 
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dr wu said:
I don't think anyone was going to jump on you....the case was to be the issue.
But at any rate.... IMHO that case has more holes than Swiss cheese and has been discussed many times and to the best of my knowledge (I read many pieces including several of the original books and articles on it back in the day) it has never been proven or verified in any way...and several of the players involved were shown to not exist or to be frauds. And I'm referring to the alleged 'secret service agents' that supposedly contacted Napolitano(Cortile) and Hopkins. It's been so long since I read the details of the case (and this one was convoluted to say the least) that I simply don't recall enough to analyze it without rereading the articles.
Exopolitics is a pro believer web site as is Salla.....so that source of information has to be looked at with a grain of salt.

This is by far the best 'deconstruction' I have ever read of this case from the book The Trickster by George Hansen. It is not a short read but well worth it if one wants to see how complex this case was. btw....the whole book is a fascinating read.
http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/LindaCortileCase.htm
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The article pre-dates the book on the matter by Budd Hopkins - Witnessed (1996) - so is apparently based on two short articles and some presentations. I don't think the critique has been revised or updated for the detailed information provided.
 
Fahrenheit 451 said:
The article pre-dates the book on the matter by Budd Hopkins - Witnessed (1996) - so is apparently based on two short articles and some presentations. I don't think the critique has been revised or updated for the detailed information provided.
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You could be correct on that...though I do believe Hansen updated his critique later and didn't fundamentally change his position.
As Hansen mentioned , it's possible that 'something unusual' happened to Linda but there are many problems with the case details and the story as presented over time that it remains enigmatic, confusing ,and ultimately not verifiable.
 
dr wu said:
You could be correct on that...though I do believe Hansen updated his critique later and didn't fundamentally change his position.
As Hansen mentioned , it's possible that 'something unusual' happened to Linda but there are many problems with the case details and the story as presented over time that it remains enigmatic, confusing ,and ultimately not verifiable.
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I will step back a bit from the debate, but what I find interesting is that (to the best of my knowledge) there was never a clear cut denial by the UN Secretary General that this happened.
 
Fahrenheit 451 said:
I will step back a bit from the debate, but what I find interesting is that (to the best of my knowledge) there was never a clear cut denial by the UN Secretary General that this happened.
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Please...go ahead and give your side of the case...it would be interesting.
On the Linda Cortile web site Hansen's analysis has been questioned about inaccuracies ,but I would expect no less from a pro alien site.
This was also interesting http://www.gregsandow.com/ufo/Conte...sis_of_the/from_iur_--_an_analysis_of_the.htm
While he seems skeptical he could not 'prove it was a hoax'.
But regarding De Cuellar....from that link by Greg Sandow...
"It's also clear that there are some immediate problems. First, de Cuellar has denied he was involved. He denied it more than once, in fact, most recently in a fax to the PBS science show Nova (which was preparing its 1996 abduction episode), in which he said:

  • I cannot but strongly deny the claim that I have had an abduction experience at any time. On several occasions, when questioned about that matter, I reiterated that these allegations were completely false and I hope that this statement will definitely put an end to these unfounded rumours. [de Cuellar's spelling]
Not that this denial means very much. If de Cuellar really was abducted, would we expect him to admit it? But still we have to note his statement". "
 
Wreckless said:
The UFO community still believes — and science is starting to listen
by Chabeli Herrera, Orlando Sentinel, Updated: March 21, 2019

ORLANDO, Fla. — He appeared as if a hologram at first — then solid — suddenly there and clear as you or I, at the edge of the forest behind Trish Bishop’s home in Kissimmee.

It was a Thursday in March 2013, the glow of the afternoon tucking in for the day behind the trees. He stood tall, at least 6-foot-3, perhaps 220 pounds and certainly muscular, wearing a formfitting tan colored uniform, boots, and gloves. He lingered by the crape myrtle tree in the middle of the backyard.
When he turned around, it was his face, she remembers, that stopped her.
Bulging eyes jutting so far out of the sockets that Bishop wondered whether he could close them. Skin white as chalk. And a jaw so large, it dispelled any notions the government worker had of the visitor being human.

“If you compare a human jawbone to his, we would be a Chihuahua to a pit bull,” Bishop said.
Paralyzed with fear, she watched as what she believed to be an alien appeared to climb invisible steps, stopping often to snatch glances at her from where she sat on her back porch, fumbling with her phone to appear as though she couldn’t see him.
Her finger was pressed on the number “9” to dial for help.
When he was about 10 feet off the ground, he turned his back to her and pulled himself up — “into a UFO?” she thought — and was gone.

Bishop sat stunned. “I’ve got a freaking alien in my backyard,” she thought.
It would be four years before she told anyone her story, before she’d discover the Mutual Unidentified Flying Objects Network, a nationwide organization 50 years old, and file her report under case number 84886 with the local Florida chapter.
But she worried: Who would believe her?
These days, more people than you’d think.

https://www.philly.com/news/nation-...fied-flying-objects-outer-space-20190322.html
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Yer right.....as ugly, big and scary as can be. It would have to be 6'3" and not 5'1"" Scarier the better.

Everything here including the bulging eyes for madness.....lack of blood the lot.
 
I hadn't known of such a statement - though it refers to having an abduction experience - as opposed to witnessing one. That some stalled limousines did delay traffic seems true. This from abovetopsecret.com:

At the New York Post complex, a well-known journalist leaves a nearby bar. Too drunk to drive, he asks one of the drivers if he can drop him home. The driver answers that the lorries cannot move because there are several limos blocking the street. He even suspected that the big boss could be paying a visit to the newspaper."

That's certainly consistent with the story of the security / CIA men. Was this false flag work - I don't know. Something clearly happened and the story as told by Dr Greer seems to me even scarier.
 
Fahrenheit 451 said:
I hadn't known of such a statement - though it refers to having an abduction experience - as opposed to witnessing one. That some stalled limousines did delay traffic seems true. This from abovetopsecret.com:

At the New York Post complex, a well-known journalist leaves a nearby bar. Too drunk to drive, he asks one of the drivers if he can drop him home. The driver answers that the lorries cannot move because there are several limos blocking the street. He even suspected that the big boss could be paying a visit to the newspaper."

That's certainly consistent with the story of the security / CIA men. Was this false flag work - I don't know. Something clearly happened and the story as told by Dr Greer seems to me even scarier.
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Again abovetopsecret is a pro alien site so not an unbiased source and Dr Greer has a load of past credibility issues pointed out by both believers and skeptics....so I'm not sure I would take his word on anything.
What we really need is someone who is neutral to look at this case again and see what new facts or evidence they can turn up.
 
eburacum said:
Well, it seems entirely likely that no human has ever met with an extraterrestrial being of any kind. None of the accounts are convincing or have any evidence at all to back them up.
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you are both right and wrong at the same time, many humans have met UFOnauts, but UFOnauts aren't extraterrestrial, at least thats what the evidence points to
 
Fahrenheit 451 said:
The case I consider worthy of consideration is that of Linda Napolitano and the then UN General Secretary, Perez Dr Cuellar. A good start point (with links and some evidence) is here:
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wow, thats a horrible example
that case has a bunch of red flags among them the fact that this abduction happened right in the center of one of the largest cities in the world and only 2 (or 3) people saw it
if you want to see what a real interesting case looks like, google the carl higdon abduction
 
I remember this case from way back.

I wonder a bit about the description of the burning vest.
Though the grid pattern is clearly defined, it doesn't appear to tie in well with the description of where the grid was on the 'vehicle'. On the sketch the grid appears to be facing downward. Not directly at him as one might expect if he was to be hit with a collection of high temperature jets of gas.

A blast of hot air (or gas) with enough power to set his vest on fire would cause a lot of skin damage.

Also, if it set his hat and hair on fire, one would expect him to be more severely burned around his upper torso, particularly around the neck, and the face.

If he was wearing welders goggles then one would also expect to see a burnt face with a pale area where the goggles protected him.

Just my opinion.

INT21.
 
After all the interesting debate and experience of the case, what's the consensus on the Linda Napolitano (Cortile) event?

  1. Didn't happen
  2. Didn't happen - Budd Hopkins was deliberately discredited
  3. Did happen - a real alien abduction
  4. Did happen - a false flag abduction by the military
  5. Something else (suggest what)
It would be interesting to have a few opinions.
 
4 is impossible- the military doesn't have the technology to perform such a cinematic stunt.
The most likely case is that none of this happened. Hopkins was a complete idiot, of course, and needs very little discrediting.
 
A combination of 2 and 5.....no alien abduction but perhaps something else happened......maybe Napolitano had a strange experience (lucid dream..?) and the rest somehow got blown out of proportion and exaggerated to the point where it ended up looking like a hoax.
I wouldn't call Hopkins an 'idiot' but I do think he was not equipped to handle proper investigation of such things...he was an artist in New York originally with no experience in science or investigations. Even Dr John Mack who had a lot experience in psychiatric matters was fooled once by a person pretending to be a ufo experiencer. It shows that anyone can be 'taken in'.
 
For my part, I don't think that an alien abduction happened. That's not to say that I disbelieve the whole abduction agenda, but I believe Budd Hopkins was played along by an Intelligence Agency, principally through the two security agents (in a moment of opportunism). Linda Napolitano a confused victim trying to find answers.

The sighted abduction could well have been a false flag event, designed in some way to influence Perez de Cuellar. It's not that challenging to hoist a body in the foetal position into a "helicopter" nor beam a very bright light down. Linda Napolitano would have been first sedated and then hypnotized to create very real confusion in her mind.

Real alien abductions seem far more efficient and effective than this.

Effectively, I am going for 4 - it did happen, as a false flag event. But I can't buy into that in the depth that Dr Greer does. I do think Budd Hopkin's involvement and his later book were the unforseen by products of an agenda much more focussed on the UN and the political moment.
 
Has there ever been a "false flag" event connected to UFOs that has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt? It's a term that a lot of conspiracy theorists use willy-nilly when they can't admit things just happen as they appeared (or didn't appear), but I have never seen evidence of one. You'd think, say, the US military would have better things to do than stage what amounted to an April Fool's gag.
 
Better things to do as Gorbachev and Reagan were bringing the Cold War to an end and Reagan was talking about an outside alien threat that would unify the planet?
 
GNC said:
Has there ever been a "false flag" event connected to UFOs that has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt? It's a term that a lot of conspiracy theorists use willy-nilly when they can't admit things just happen as they appeared (or didn't appear), but I have never seen evidence of one. You'd think, say, the US military would have better things to do than stage what amounted to an April Fool's gag.
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rick doty's 1980's saga
 
A helicopter lifting a body out of an apartment block, and only three people saw, all of whom can't be traced? Bollocks.
 
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eburacum said:
A helicopter lifting a body out of an apartment block, and only three people saw, all of whom can't be traced? Bollocks.
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Nobody knows how many saw - most got on with their lives no doubt - the three that are known to Budd Hopkins form a significant part of the book and the fourth is Perez De Cuellar.
 
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