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The Well-Tailored Neanderthal; Or, They Walk Among Us!

I listened to the audio commentary on the Quest For Fire DVD many moons ago, and Ron Perlman was on it, very good company he was too. He said the makeup man on the film was delighted when he saw Ron, because he didn't have to do very much to his features to make him fit in with the actors playing Neanderthals in the film, who needed more work. He also described himself as "the first Jewish caveman" (!).
 

Lovely article. I particularly liked the series of single word captions for the photos: "lumpen" and "hirsute" etc. Someone had fun with that.

The thrust of the article is that the way we depict Neanderthals says more about our attitudes than it says about the Neanderthals themselves. This is certainly the case: many of the females are depicted with bare breasts but all of the males' penises are discretely concealed! That is a modern attitude applied perhaps unthinkingly to the reconstructions.
 
"were literally decimated "

Pedantry demands I point out that decimate literally means to reduce by 10%.
I am not aware of any term for a 90% reduction, but it's not far off genocide.

Pedantry demands that I point out that "decimate" was specifically a form of punishment in which 1/10 of a Roman military unit was selected to be killed by the other 90%.

It was only later that it came to mean losing 10%, or a more substantial proportion, by other means.

There has been a reversal in the public perception, with many people thinking it means something nearer to only 10% being left.

Etymology is fun, but is often uninstructive. Try looking at a distant object through some telescopic motorcycle forks.

People make connections and assign or assume new meanings for words. I suspect that many people are referring to the "epicentre" of the "epidemic" because the two words start with "epi", and think that a "pandemic" is the name we give to an epidemic that causes "pandemonium" or "panic".

Back to the Neanderthals: no doubt the point has been made before, but it is insulting to assume that Neanderthals were stupid or clumsy. In their heyday, they were as highly evolved for their own niche as any other species is today, from shark or tiger to slug or jellyfish. I'm sure a Neanderthal would outlast me in almost any survival situation.

I'm also a bit uncomfortable using "Neanderthal" to refer to any named individual as a "Neanderthal" merely because of their supposedly brutish appearance. That picture of Valuev with his wife is lovely in its tenderness.
 
To be pedantic myself (who's the real pedant, the pedant, or the pedant who pedants the pedant?), is there such a thing as "highly evolved"? I mean things evolve and they stop if there's no further need or pressure to do so, or so goes the theory. I mean there are plenty of archaic life forms that have changed seemingly little in millions or occasionally billions of years.

I take and agree with your point though, our somewhat chauvinistic attitude to Neanderthals is misplaced.
 
Jargon often uses words that are value-laden in everyday speech in a neutral way. In evolutionary science, the term "primitive," which laymen tend to hear as pejorative, means "hasn't changed much over time." The term "advanced" means "has undergone a lot of adaptations." The human eye is an advanced organ because it has undergone numerous adaptations and is now radically different from the first batch of light sensitive cells, but it is in no way an elegant or well-engineered organ. Neanderthals were every bit as advanced and highly-evolved as modern humans. They had a slightly different suite of adaptations, but the number of adaptations was comparable between the two species. That we have proven to be more successful over the last 40K years or so is as much due to contingent circumstances as evolutionary adaptation, and nothing about our advanced set of adaptations guarantees our survival or ability to adapt to the next set of evolutionary pressures and contingencies. Sharks are a highly successful primitive set of species; their original set of adaptations has proven adequate to millions of years of changes in their environment, so they haven't made radical adaptations.
 
Jargon often uses words that are value-laden in everyday speech in a neutral way. In evolutionary science, the term "primitive," which laymen tend to hear as pejorative, means "hasn't changed much over time." The term "advanced" means "has undergone a lot of adaptations." The human eye is an advanced organ because it has undergone numerous adaptations and is now radically different from the first batch of light sensitive cells, but it is in no way an elegant or well-engineered organ. Neanderthals were every bit as advanced and highly-evolved as modern humans. They had a slightly different suite of adaptations, but the number of adaptations was comparable between the two species. That we have proven to be more successful over the last 40K years or so is as much due to contingent circumstances as evolutionary adaptation, and nothing about our advanced set of adaptations guarantees our survival or ability to adapt to the next set of evolutionary pressures and contingencies. Sharks are a highly successful primitive set of species; their original set of adaptations has proven adequate to millions of years of changes in their environment, so they haven't made radical adaptations.

I would add the unquantifiable nature of "luck" to our success - good to see you back.
 
Thats a bit unscholarly.

How about "We bred with everyone with good survival traits?"
Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? | Live Science

this is something I saw pop up today. Apparently in the distant past in Europe... some sort of mass migration happened... then the males of group M almost all died off, and the descendants were fathered by group N. But there's the kicker... group M was genetically similar to the Aborigines of Australia... where did group N even come from?
 
Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? | Live Science

this is something I saw pop up today. Apparently in the distant past in Europe... some sort of mass migration happened... then the males of group M almost all died off, and the descendants were fathered by group N. But there's the kicker... group M was genetically similar to the Aborigines of Australia... where did group N even come from?
This exerpt is from an article posted by @EnolaGaia on the 'Roopkund skeletons' thread.

Last year, Reich led a team of more than a hundred researchers who published a study in Science that examined the genomes of some two hundred and seventy ancient skeletons from the Iberian Peninsula. It’s long been known that, from around 2500 to 2000 B.C., major new artistic and cultural styles flourished in Western and Central Europe. Archeologists have tended to explain this development as the result of cultural diffusion: people adopted innovations in pottery, metalworking, and weaponry from their geographic neighbors, along with new burial customs and religious beliefs. But the DNA of Iberian skeletons dating from this period of transformation told a different story, revealing what Reich describes as the “genetic scar” of a foreign invasion.

In Iberia during this time, the local type of Y chromosome was replaced by an entirely different type. Given that the Y chromosome, found only in males, is passed down from father to son, this means that the local male line in Iberia was essentially extinguished. It is likely that the newcomers perpetrated a large-scale killing of local men, boys, and possibly male infants. Any local males remaining must have been subjugated in a way that prevented them from fathering children, or were so strongly disfavored in mate selection over time that their genetic contribution was nullified. The full genetic sequencing, however, indicated that about sixty per cent of the lineage of the local population was passed on, which shows that women were not killed but almost certainly subjected to widespread sexual coercion, and perhaps even mass rape.
We can get a sense of this reign of terror by thinking about what took place when the descendants of those ancient Iberians sailed to the New World, events for which we have ample historical records. The Spanish conquest of the Americas produced human suffering on a grotesque scale—war, mass murder, rape, slavery, genocide, starvation, and pandemic disease. Genetically, as Reich noted, the outcome was very similar: in Central and South America, large amounts of European DNA mixed into the local population, almost all of it coming from European males. The same Y-chromosome turnover is also found in Americans of African descent. On average, a Black person in America has an ancestry that is around eighty per cent African and twenty per cent European. But about eighty per cent of that European ancestry is inherited from white males—genetic testimony to the widespread rape and sexual coercion of female slaves by slaveowners.
In the Iberian study, the predominant Y chromosome seems to have originated with a group called the Yamnaya, who arose about five thousand years ago, in the steppes north of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. By adopting the wheel and the horse, they became powerful and fearsome nomads, expanding westward into Europe as well as east- and southward into India. They spoke proto-Indo-European languages, from which most of the languages of Europe and many South Asian languages now spring. Archeologists have long known about the spread of the Yamnaya, but almost nothing in the archeological record showed the brutality of their takeover. “This is an example of the power of ancient DNA to reveal cultural events,” Reich told me.

It also shows how DNA evidence can upset established archeological theories and bring rejected ones back into contention. The idea that Indo-European languages emanated from the Yamnaya homeland was established in 1956, by the Lithuanian-American archeologist Marija Gimbutas. Her view, known as the Kurgan hypothesis—named for the distinctive burial mounds that spread west across Europe—is now the most widely accepted theory about Indo-European linguistic origins. But, where many archeologists envisaged a gradual process of cultural diffusion, Gimbutas saw “continuous waves of expansion or raids.” As her career progressed, her ideas became more controversial. In Europe previously, Gimbutas hypothesized, men and women held relatively equal places in a peaceful, female-centered, goddess-worshipping society—as evidenced by the famous fertility figurines of the time. She believed that the nomads from the Caspian steppes imposed a male-dominated warrior culture of violence, sexual inequality, and social stratification, in which women were subservient to men and a small number of élite males accumulated most of the wealth and power.
The DNA from the Iberian skeletons can’t tell us what kind of culture the Yamnaya replaced, but it does much to corroborate Gimbutas’s sense that the descendants of the Yamnaya caused much greater disruption than other archeologists believed. Even today, the Y chromosomes of almost all men of Western European ancestry have a high percentage of Yamnaya-derived genes, suggesting that violent conquest may have been widespread.
The team members of the Roopkund study planned a variety of tests for the bones. DNA sequencing would show the ancestry of the victims and whether they were related to one another, and carbon dating would estimate when they died. The researchers would test for disease, and analyze the chemistry of the bones to determine the victims’ diet and where they might have grown up. Under sterile conditions, the scientists in Hyderabad drilled into long bones and teeth, producing a powder. Vials of this were sent to Harvard and to other labs in India, the United States and Germany.
https://condenaststore.com/conde-nast-brand/cartoons
An ancient human bone is packed with DNA, but, in many cases, ninety-nine per cent or more of that is not human. It is the DNA of billions of microbes that colonized the body during the decomposition after death. To tease the tiny fraction of human DNA from this mass of microbial debris requires a chemical ballet of enormous delicacy, and the risk of contamination is high. Stray DNA molecules from people who handled the remains can ruin an entire sample.

Its not directly linked but is, i think relevant.

Full link to article:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/12/14/the-skeletons-at-the-lake
 
Pedantry demands that I point out that "decimate" was specifically a form of punishment in which 1/10 of a Roman military unit was selected to be killed by the other 90%.

It was only later that it came to mean losing 10%, or a more substantial proportion, by other means.

There has been a reversal in the public perception, with many people thinking it means something nearer to only 10% being left.

Etymology is fun, but is often uninstructive. Try looking at a distant object through some telescopic motorcycle forks.

People make connections and assign or assume new meanings for words. I suspect that many people are referring to the "epicentre" of the "epidemic" because the two words start with "epi", and think that a "pandemic" is the name we give to an epidemic that causes "pandemonium" or "panic".

Back to the Neanderthals: no doubt the point has been made before, but it is insulting to assume that Neanderthals were stupid or clumsy. In their heyday, they were as highly evolved for their own niche as any other species is today, from shark or tiger to slug or jellyfish. I'm sure a Neanderthal would outlast me in almost any survival situation.

I'm also a bit uncomfortable using "Neanderthal" to refer to any named individual as a "Neanderthal" merely because of their supposedly brutish appearance. That picture of Valuev with his wife is lovely in its tenderness.
If we're being pedantic - it's 'discreet', not 'discrete'.
 
I bet this is total nonsense but it always makes me happy to wonder about -

I read somewhere that Neanderthals were much more artistic, spiritual and more generally "left-brain" than Homo Sapiens. These were much more exploitative, violent and materialistic. Because of this theys stomped the neanderthals and eventually caused them to be no more. I sometimes wonder how the tide of human history may have been very different if the Neanderthals had succeeded rather than the Homo Sapiens.


This may be complete nonsense. I thought I read it somewhere.


It is also very possible that I made it up...

:bananas:

You're welcome.
 
I bet this is total nonsense but it always makes me happy to wonder about -

I read somewhere that Neanderthals were much more artistic, spiritual and more generally "left-brain" than Homo Sapiens. These were much more exploitative, violent and materialistic. Because of this theys stomped the neanderthals and eventually caused them to be no more. I sometimes wonder how the tide of human history may have been very different if the Neanderthals had succeeded rather than the Homo Sapiens.


This may be complete nonsense. I thought I read it somewhere.


It is also very possible that I made it up...

:bananas:

You're welcome.
Tjere is a lot of evidence that the neanderthals were more likely absorbed into the homosapien race through interbreeding.

"Neanderthals have contributed approximately 1-4% of the genomes of non-African modern humans, although a modern human who lived about 40,000 years ago has been found to have between 6-9% Neanderthal DNA (Fu et al 2015). The evidence we have of Neanderthal-modern human interbreeding sheds light on the expansion of modern humans out of Africa. These new discoveries refute many previous hypotheses in which anatomically modern humans replaced archaic hominins, like Neanderthals, without any interbreeding. However, even with some interbreeding between modern humans and now-extinct hominins, most of our genome still derives from Africa. Neanderthals could not have contributed to modern African peoples’ genomes because Neanderthals evolved and lived exclusively in Eurasia and therefore could not have bred with the humans living in Africa at that time."

https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals/interbreeding
 
If we're being pedantic - it's 'discreet', not 'discrete'.
Oops. I know the difference and normally use each of those two words correctly. I failed to spot the typo. Deeply ashamed. I deserve to be literally decimated.
 
1614258284679.jpeg



Get it mate.
 
I bet this is total nonsense but it always makes me happy to wonder about -

I read somewhere that Neanderthals were much more artistic, spiritual and more generally "left-brain" than Homo Sapiens. These were much more exploitative, violent and materialistic. Because of this theys stomped the neanderthals and eventually caused them to be no more. I sometimes wonder how the tide of human history may have been very different if the Neanderthals had succeeded rather than the Homo Sapiens.


This may be complete nonsense. I thought I read it somewhere.


It is also very possible that I made it up...

:bananas:

You're welcome.

There's a lot more about Neanderthal Culture etc at: https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/neanderthals-new-findings-theories.27837/
 
The Neanderthal genetic legacy some of us still carry can have significant effects on our health - e.g., the ability to process certain commonly used medicines.
Some of Us Are Part-Neanderthal, And It Could Affect How You Process Medicines

Life on the blood-thinning agent warfarin involves the careful calculation of each dose. Too little, and it could be ineffective. Too much, and there is the risk of uncontrollable bleeding.

According to a recent study, those of us who share specific genes with one of our closest hominin cousins, the Neanderthal, could find this balancing act a little more challenging.

The researchers' discovery that variants in enzymes responsible for breaking down pharmaceuticals such as warfarin, ibuprofen, and cholesterol-lowering statins have such ancient origins could help explain why we don't all react to the same medications in the same way.

"This is one case where the admixture with Neanderthals has a direct impact in the clinic. Otherwise therapeutic doses can be toxic for carriers of the Neanderthal gene variant," says the study's lead researcher, evolutionary geneticist Hugo Zeberg with Sweden's Karolinska Institute.

Advances in genetic sequencing have revealed the extent to which our direct ancestors – the ones who wandered into every corner of the globe over tens of thousands of years – paused to raise families with previous groups of migrants along the way.

The legacy of genes passed down from this intermingling is yet to be fully appreciated, though year by year, researchers uncover hints in how genes that evolved in long-lost populations could contribute to differences in our own biology.

In many cases, these variations might be fairly trivial. But when it comes to the way an ancestral form of enzyme or protein channel affects our health, it could be important to know as much as we can about its evolution. ...
FULL STORY: https://www.sciencealert.com/being-...rence-in-how-medications-treat-some-illnesses
 
Theres a welsh guy who writes into FT every so often thst reckons Gingerness, left handedness and socialism are traits associated with neanderthal genes. The Fir Bolg thing is usually taken to refer to the shorter, darker population group found in western Ireland, the "Black Irish", who had the run of the place till the celts turned up.
Socialism! :hahazebs: My family has higher than "normal" neanderthal DNA, a lot of red heads and seem to be more intelligent than average, also a lot of left handers and ambitextrous. Is this guy afraid the neanderthals will make a come back and take over the world? What does socialism have to do with neanderthal genes?
 
heh, this reminds me of a thing I read almost 30 years ago that was a research paper that studied nutrition and how different people have different quirks to how their bodies process food... and some things are just... different. like how some people are "lactose intolerant"... they just can't digest it. But there's a lot more things like that.
 
I bet this is total nonsense but it always makes me happy to wonder about -

I read somewhere that Neanderthals were much more artistic, spiritual and more generally "left-brain" than Homo Sapiens. These were much more exploitative, violent and materialistic. Because of this theys stomped the neanderthals and eventually caused them to be no more. I sometimes wonder how the tide of human history may have been very different if the Neanderthals had succeeded rather than the Homo Sapiens.


This may be complete nonsense. I thought I read it somewhere.


It is also very possible that I made it up...

:bananas:

You're welcome.
It is something I have thought about too.
 
Excellent article in today's Guardian featuring the research of Swedish geneticist Svante Pääbo.

I particularly liked the statements "the genetic differences between Neanderthals and all modern humans(amounting to about 30,000) are far less than the differences between two random human beings alive today"
and. "At least half of the Neanderthal genome – probably as much as 60 to 70% of it, Pääbo believes – is to be found in living humans. “Which means that in effect Neanderthals are not really extinct at all, they are in us.”

6000.jpg


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/jan/12/svante-paabo-interview-nobel-prize
 
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I mean, he's not the first to say that modern Humans are descended. the new thing is the numbers i think?
Yes.
Just as modern birds are now widely regarded as the extant branch of dinosaurs, it is arguably wrong to say that Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis is truly extinct, as they interbred with other humans and passed their DNA onto us today.
 
He was the one who worked out how to successfully recover the ancient DNA and analyse it which lead to such amazing research. If you're interested, this month's British Archaeology Magazine has an article about him and some of the research projects that arose out of this technology. You may well be familiar with them but the magazine has interviews with the archaeologists and a good overview.

Also an article about ancient sheep. Highly recommended.
 
He was the one who worked out how to successfully recover the ancient DNA and analyse it which lead to such amazing research. If you're interested, this month's British Archaeology Magazine has an article about him and some of the research projects that arose out of this technology. You may well be familiar with them but the magazine has interviews with the archaeologists and a good overview.

Also an article about ancient sheep. Highly recommended.
ooohh... have they managed to find the long lost gene for making striped sheep? :D
 
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