THIRTEEN

[Pete Younger]

Anyone know why the number thirteen is unlucky in some cultures and lucky in others...Likewise black cats and white cats?:madeyes:

 

[lucydru]

Can't remember where I got this info from but if 13 people were going to be at a mourning party then the hosts would hire a 14th guest. Not sure why 13 is unlucky though.

lucydru

 

[lucydru]

The black cat thing always confuses me. To many it is unlucky for one to cross your path, but I have heard the opposite. Plus why are they seen as a symbol of good luck (given to the bride and groom) to newly weds.

lucydru

P.S. I don't mean a real cat is given, no I mean a cheapy looking plasticy thing in the shape of a cat.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

Nobody knows but the commonest explanation is that there were
thirteen at the Last Supper.

My own superstition is to avoid being kissed by lads called Judas.

 

[Pete Younger]

Nobody knows but the commonest explanation is that there were
thirteen at the Last Supper.

My own superstition is to avoid being kissed by lads called Judas.

Unfair to Judas, I read somewhere in FT that he was a good bloke realy.:blah:

 

[Anonymous]

Unfair to Judas, I read somewhere in FT that he was a good bloke realy.:blah:

Well, someone had to do it for the story to unfold. Second only to Satan on the bad press front?
Myself, I take this as a sign that it's unlucky to (claim to) be the Messiah.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

My sacrifice isn't that great come to think of it, given the marked
reluctance of mothers to call their offspring Judas for the last 1,970
years or so.

But on a hot night in Manchester, who's got time to saw em in half
and count their rings? :madeyes:

 

[Anonymous]

Buy me a train ticket and line 'em up. I'll give it a go.

 

[evilsprout]

Aye, poor old Judas. Stigmatised for two millennia just for being a neccessary plot device.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

Judas with the stigmata? Now that would be a plot twist.

 

[Anonymous]

Damnit....it has something to do with moon days and the Goddess...the 13 thing...oh wait...right! there are 13 lunar months in the solar year! Of course there are only 12 solar months in the same period. All that fussing and fretting of Jeremiah and Company was also a shamless hustle of the solar calendar...a late expression of our species' muddle as psychic power passed from the female to the male....and of course Holy M. the Church sided with the solar crowd (they had not only the dicks...but title to the lands)...the older religions, moon oriented, quietly carried on their way...whilst the Xtians did their damndest to give 13 a bad name.

(Tibet was unaffected by this flap; to this very day they live by lunar calendars.)

I have heard, though it may be new age twaddle, that the 13 month year is the more accurate tracking of menstrual cycles...

Anyhoo: that stuff about 13 at the last fishfry...is twaddle...the dissin was goin on long before then...

 

[rynner2]

The 13th

According to a FT article I saw once, a French king got really fed up with the Knights Templar (mainly, I think, because they kept telling him "We're considerably richer than you!" - LOL) so he organised a swoop on them which resulted in murder, torture and other general unpleasantness (and the transfer of some Templar funds to the king - although some Templars escaped with the rest by ship, possibly to Scotland).

All this was pretty bad luck for the Templars, and it happened on the 13th of some month, in - um - some year. Could it also have been a Frday?

 

[Anonymous]

By some fluke of our calender, Friday is the day of the week most likely to be on the 13th of the month.

 

[Anonymous]

The black cat thing always confuses me. To many it is unlucky for one to cross your path, but I have heard the opposite.

I have heard that the Romans started the rumor about black cats being bad luck because the egyptians worshiped the goddess
Bast/Bastet who was often a black cat.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: The 13th

According to a FT article I saw once, a French king got really fed up with the Knights Templar (mainly, I think, because they kept telling him "We're considerably richer than you!" - LOL) so he organised a swoop on them which resulted in murder, torture and other general unpleasantness (and the transfer of some Templar funds to the king - although some Templars escaped with the rest by ship, possibly to Scotland).

All this was pretty bad luck for the Templars, and it happened on the 13th of some month, in - um - some year. Could it also have been a Frday?

Quite right. The date was Friday 13th October 1307.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: The 13th

Quite right. The date was Friday 13th October 1307.

Is that the date by the Gregorian calender or the Julian calender?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Re: The 13th

Is that the date by the Gregorian calender or the Julian calender?

Good point. But since the ten day adjustment between the Julian and Gregorian calendars was effected from October 1582, I imagine all earlier dates remained unadjusted?

 

[rynner2]

I went to Wetherspoons today for a late breakfast/early lunch. For some reason the upper floor, where I normally go, was closed off, so I had to find a table on the ground floor. This was already crowded, with only one floor in use, but finally I found myself at table 13.

After ordering there was some wait for the food to arrive, and the staff seemed a bit harassed. I got offered a vegetarian breakfast which was not what I'd ordered, and then an ordinary breakfast was delivered to the next table. But the people there hadn't ordered it, so then the waitress brought it to me. At last!

Then a chap at the next table tapped on my table number before pointing at his own - both tables were Number 13! :shock: No wonder the staff were confused...

Some hotels avoid having floors or rooms numbered 13, but Wetherspoons seems to work the other way round!

 

[papillon]

I remember reading as a kid that it was because 12 was seen as the perfect or complete number, 12 months, 12 hours on a clock, etc. and adding one more to this perfect number to make it 13 would spoil it, or something...

 

[GNC]

I suppose we do have the word "dozen" for twelve, and no alternative word for thirteen. So twelve was special to somebody.

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

Jesus and the 12 disciples, at the last supper. One betrays him, the thirteenth guest, Judas. That's why people try to avoid thirteen guests at a dinner party, etc. I suspect there's a bit of Lunar year folklore in there, as well, though. The twelve knights and one King of the Old Year, 'Golden Bough' stuff probably tied up with it, from way back. Unlucky to find the sixpence in the pudding, too. And, why were there twelve days of Christmas?

 

[GNC]

And, why were there twelve days of Christmas?

They couldn't think up any more verses without the song going on for an hour or more?

 

[CarlosTheDJ]

I suppose we do have the word "dozen" for twelve, and no alternative word for thirteen. So twelve was special to somebody.

Baker's dozen?

By some fluke of our calender, Friday is the day of the week most likely to be on the 13th of the month.

Please, please somebody tell me this is rubbish or my head might explode! Surely it can't be true? :shock:

 

[rynner2]

By some fluke of our calender, Friday is the day of the week most likely to be on the 13th of the month.

Please, please somebody tell me this is rubbish or my head might explode! Surely it can't be true? :shock:

Let's see... (Gets out Diary)

2010

We, Sa, Sa, Tu, Th, Su, Tu, Fr, Mo, We, Sa, Mo

2011

Th, Su, Su, We, Fr, Mo, We, Sa, Tu, Th, Su, Tu

2012

Fr, Mo, Tu, Fr, Su, We, Fr, Mo, Th, Sa, Tu, Th

So in that 3-year sample we have

5 Mondays
6 Tuesdays
5 Wednesdays
5 Thursdays
5 Fridays
5 Saturdays
5 Sundays

(Check: Total 13ths = 36 = 3 x 12, ie, 12 per year!)

So in that 3-year sample, Tuesday was the most common 13th. But it might be that over, say, a century, Friday could come out on top, but it would only be marginal. Of the 1200 '13ths' in a century, each day ought to come up about 171 times (1200/7). But 7 x 171 = 1197, which is 3 short of 1200, so some days would come up 172 times.
(Strictly speaking, the options are:
3 days @ 172; 1 day @ 172 plus 1 day @ 173; or 1 day @ 174.)

As the number of centuries is increased, the difference in the frequencies for the days of the week would get smaller and smaller.

(I've ignored Leap Years in these estimates. 2012 will be a LY, but that would only affect which '29ths' have more days of the week, and doesn't change the figures for '13ths'.)

Now I think I need a lie-down... 8)

 

[CarlosTheDJ]

Cheers Ryn, knew you wouldn't let me down.

Glad I'm not going mad.

 

[thealien2000uk]

13 phobia

Friday October 13 was the day and date that the Knights Templar were burnt at the stake and sympathisers recognised this as unlucky, which eventually spread through the cultures where these sympathisers were located hence France, England, Scotland, Germany, Malta etc and groups like Templars, Freemasons, OTO, Round Table always postpone meetings on Friday the 13 till the next day,

Yet traditionally there is 13 members (1 priest and 12 adepts) of a true witches coven although not a wiccan coven as this is usually occupied by multiples of three, as popularised by the tv series "Charmed" in "Three is the magic number (But since wicca was invented in the 1930s by rich nothing-to-do's to give themselves meaning in life, who take notice of them anyway).

 

[weegian]

Surely 12 as a unit existed before the Jesus books were written.

I always imagined that it came from prehistoric counting. It's obvious why we have a base 10 number system, right? People counted stuff on their fingers, got to 10 and started again. So if you count 10 fingers and two feet, you have a dozen.

 

[Monstrosa]

Jesus and the 12 disciples, at the last supper. One betrays him, the thirteenth guest, Judas. That's why people try to avoid thirteen guests at a dinner party, etc. I suspect there's a bit of Lunar year folklore in there, as well, though. The twelve knights and one King of the Old Year, 'Golden Bough' stuff probably tied up with it, from way back. Unlucky to find the sixpence in the pudding, too. And, why were there twelve days of Christmas?

Because it's the 12 days to Epiphany.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

According to "A Pocket Guide to Superstitions" - a condensed version of "The Penguin Guide to the Superstitions of Britain & Ireland" - by Steve Roud, the first definite written reference to Friday 13th as being especially unlucky dates from as late as 1913.

Thirteen at dinner was noted as unlucky in Notes & Queries, 1873, where the writer says the commonest form of the superstition limits it to Friday - mistakenly associating The Last Supper with that day of the week. Fridays had been thought an unlucky day from medieval times but references to thirteen as a generally unlucky number go back no further than 1852.

Roud anticipates that readers will be incredulous of these late dates but states firmly that almanacs whose raison d'être was to give date-related information are completely silent about Friday 13th in earler times. Also there were so many occurances of that day and date that opportunities to comment in diaries etc. were frequent. Yet no one did. Even Victorian folklorists do not mention it. 8)

 

[milk23]

Isn't it something to do with that film?
What was it called now....?