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Ties

GNC

GNC

King-Sized Canary
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Anyone familiar with the significance and origins of the tie? As comedian Richard Herring would point out, "the businessman, in his suit and tie" could be a bit of a pervert, but I once heard a feminist take on the garment that its shape was deliberately phallic, so basically when you dress up smart, you're hanging a penis from your neck. Any truth to that? Obviously it's in the eye of the beholder, but if it's not to emphasise masculinity, what else is it for?
 
I don't know whether this is the original source of the necktie / phallus correlation, but the earliest I can readily identify comes from a male Freudian psychoanalyst:

John Carl Flügel (sometimes Anglicized as "Fluegel")
The Psychology of Clothes
Issue 18 of International psycho-analytical library
London: Hogarth Press, 1930

If nothing else, this vintage reference suggests the more recent (e.g. 1970's and later ...) allusions represent opportunistic modern attributions from feminist-oriented writers. I notice a paperback edition of this book appeared circa 1969, and that may have brought it to the attention of the then-burgeoning international feminist movement(s).
 
An adaptation of a cravatte which came from a neck cloth worn by Croatian troops in the 17th century...I guess to keep warm?
 
GNC said:
feminist take on the garment that its shape was deliberately phallic
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yeah but feminists see penes in everything ... it clearly originates from a simple means of securing your collar, becoming decorative over time, cf. the band around the crown of a hat, cuff links etc
 
Yep, croatian fashion for keeping your shirtneck tied. It has also had different shapes, not always thin like now.
 
henry said:
yeah but feminists see penes in everything ... it clearly originates from a simple means of securing your collar, becoming decorative over time, cf. the band around the crown of a hat, cuff links etc
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The feminist angle on the tie was that there is no female equivalent. A woman dressing for work was still expected to look decorative in a way that men weren't.

This was addressed in the '80s with the invention of 'power suits' for women with skirts and exaggeratedly padded shoulders; an aggressively businesslike look.
 
I'm not sure if a tie is phallic but what they point to, when worn by gentlemen, certainly is.
 
probably out of necessity guys shirts had to be capable of loosening, guys historically doing more labour in all kinds of weather and environment, tie would probably have become multi functional hence the cravat ? traditionally womens dresses probably wouldnt have buttoned down the front out of modesty
 
Can remember this discussion coming up many times over the years in the letters pages of various publications.

There are two main questions:
1. Where do ties come from?
2. Why is it so important for men to wear them for work or to look smart?

It's no longer a uniquely masculine accessory. Women are sometimes required to wear ties for work. I've usually managed to 'lose' any I've been issued after the minimum discreet interval.

These days casual dress is acceptable in many offices. Techy went for an interview a few years ago and failed as soon as he walked in for wearing a suit and tie! Came across as too formal, which is not his nature at all. However, first impressions count.
 
when he spotted other interviewees tieless, he shouldve just unclipped it
 
plus some traditional shirts have ties in the form of a drawstring at the neck, without need for a additional tie, or a collar to hold the tie in place
 
henry said:
when he spotted other interviewees tieless, he shouldve just unclipped it
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Nope, it was worse than that. The others were in designer jeans and shirts that you couldn't put a tie on. He was out of date with his interview technique!
 
henry said:
traditionally womens dresses probably wouldnt have buttoned down the front out of modesty
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nursing a baby? big differences according class. Only the high ups could afford to have non working women in the european middle ages (huge generalisation alert). Middle females worked and lower females laboured.
 
I'm quite confused that this has become a "thing".

Before buttons were invented, shirts were laced up and the necks gathered by tying together the open neck bit. How you tied it together changed over the years, from leather laces to scarfs and lengths of cloth. All of these were "ties". The practicality of it was obvious but also, as with every clothing choice, the richer wanted some way to look nicer and so they took to using different materials and styles.

Once buttons and pins were used, neck wear became purely decorative but also completed the look of a bare short front. Bow ties, usually reserved for special occassions, are a good example of how a tie can finish off a shirt front. But ties are secondary, hence why they are not garments but accessories.

The shape, length, girth and material change with fashion trends yet older gentlemen still prefer longer, wider, single coloured ties which carry down over the bellies, creating a slimmer appearance (instead of having a shorter tie bounching around on top of your gut). They also help to hide button bulge when sitting down.

Alluding to phallic shapes or that they are pointing to the crotch area just seems like a lazy argument.
 
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exactly

i wear a tie more or less every day, despite being at the office/on a client site maybe 1 day a week, when im literally the only guy not sporting an open collar

but then i tend to rock that just-slept-under-a-parked-car look which gets less and less attractive with age but i cant quite shake, and my suits are increasingly down at heel, sometimes gloriously so
 
It always makes me smile seeing old film of guys building the M1 or skyscrapers etc. No steel toe-capped boots, brightly coloured clothing or hard hats- the only necessary requirements were a tie and a pipe to smoke (constantly).
 
and similar to the dozens of documented practical uses of a cowboys stetson, neckties are likewise multi-functional
 
A few years ago (in UK) some bright spark thought that it would be a good idea to make truck drivers wear them, (often with a short sleeved, collared shirt) so that they would look 'smarter'.
No, they just looked ridiculous.
I don't think it lasted very long.
 
During the years I was a public contact representative for a national social service agency (interviewing; taking and adjudicating claims) the former dress code had been relaxed and ties were no longer required. I was the only non-management male in the office (and even in the multi-office district / service area) who always wore a tie.

I made no bones about my rationale for doing so ... It was a visual power display, pure and simple. People off the street invariably (if mistakenly) acted as if I were the senior or more authoritative member among my peers. This projected impression was useful on those (thankfully infrequent) occasions when someone became belligerent and even violent. After a couple of incidents in which a male colleague had to deal with a ruckus I defused by arriving on the scene and staring / politely brow-beating the out-of-control miscreant back into submission, he followed suit and began sporting a tie as well.
 
henry said:
but then i tend to rock that just-slept-under-a-parked-car look which gets less and less attractive with age but i cant quite shake, and my suits are increasingly down at heel, sometimes gloriously so
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You are Sir Les Patterson AICMFP.
 
henry said:
feminists see penes in everything
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if this applies to neckties, temptation is to apply to everything thats longer than it is wide ... pens, pencils, microphones, cutlery
 
Ties. I regard them as a symbol of slavery. Many bosses want us to wear them, because they want us on the end of a piece of rope.
I haven't worn a tie to work since 1995.
 
So ties were invented because nobody had thought of buttons? When were buttons invented then? And why didn't ties die out as a fashion after they were?
 
GNC said:
So ties were invented because nobody had thought of buttons? When were buttons invented then? And why didn't ties die out as a fashion after they were?
Click to expand...

Buttons - as fasteners - originated circa 800 years ago. Neck adornments date back to ancient times. The origin of the cravat (ancestral to today's necktie) was originally for symbolic / group identification purposes. The ongoing use of a fabric band or strip wound and / or tied around the neck was largely continued as a decorative thing or a flexible and more comfortable way of closing the collar around the neck.

The earliest developmental stage following the wrapped cravat - the stock - was essentially an close-fitting neck sheath akin to a turtleneck dickey.
 
Hey, that's a point - what about bowties? What do they represent? They must be a newer affectation, surely?
 
There is an old song 'Pat do this, Pat do that' that has in one version the words ...

It's Pat do this and Pat do that
without a silk tie or cravat
and nothing but an old straw hat
while working on the railway.

This is from around 1842.
 
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