Time Or Dimensional Slips

Ghost In The Machine · Dec 5, 2017

CuriousIdent said:
A Stationary Moment in Time

Location: Great Yarmouth, Norfolk

Date: 1973

Type: Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

Persons Involved: An individual only referred to as “Mr Squirrel”.

Number of Persons Involved: 1

Interactions:

Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.

Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.

Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.

Physical – Physically interacting with another person or persons.

Auditory – Hearing a sudden change in the level of background noise in the area.

Source of Testimony: Appears in "The Directory of Possibilities," edited by Colin Wilson and John Grant (published 1981) but is referencing an account from “The Mask of Time” by Joan Forman (published by Macdonald and Jane's - 1979).

Description: This much re-relayed story is of an account given by a ‘Mr Squirrel’, who at some point in 1973 walked into a Stationers located somewhere in the Norfolk coastal town of Great Yarmouth, looking for some envelopes.

He was served by a woman who appeared to be in Edwardian dress and bought three dozen envelopes. The bill came to One Shilling.

Recalling the event Mr Squirrel attested that he had noticed that the building was extremely silent. There was no obvious traffic noise from outside.

He revisited the shop again, approximately 3 weeks later. But on doing so he was surprised to find the shop completely changed and modernised. The assistant, an elderly lady, denied that there had been any other assistant in the shop in previous weeks.

The previously purchased envelopes apparently “disintegrated very quickly”.

Joan Forman claimed to have interviewed Mr Squirrel after hearing about the case, during which occasion he was able to produce one of the remaining envelopes to show her. Forman claimed to have written to the manufacturers, who had informed him that such envelopes had ceased to be manufactured by them some 15 years before.

Notes:

You will find various retellings of this story in several places online – all of which seem to refer to Joan Forman’s testimony, but a different distances and via several difference go-between sources.

Mr Squirrel’s first name has never been revealed.

It is uncertain how Mr Squirrel would have paid ‘One Shilling’ two years after Britain’s decimalisation of currency. Nor is it mentioned whether his modern currency was either accepted or questioned by the shop assistant.

No details are provided over the interior of the shop. Was this simply a woman appearing to be in Edwardian dress or had the interior of the shop also changed in some fashion?

We do not know the name of the stationers or where it may have been located within Great Yarmouth.

Some references online mention the type of envelope Mr Squirrel as not only being discontinued at some point in 1968, but that they had ‘been first made around 1920’. I am unable to verify that, as I do not own the book to confirm if that was mentioned in The Mask of Time.

It also entirely possible that Mr Squirrel was simply sold some very old envelopes. Although that doesn't entirely account for the shop assistant or her attire.

Just to add to the credibility of that one...

I was at primary school when decimilisation happened and am pretty sure (older folk here might be more certain?) that some older people at that time would still call 5p a shilling or a bob a good few years afterwards. Not sure when the actual shilling was phased out, but think that whilst some coins were instantly obsolete after decimilisation, something with a direct equivalent like 5p= 1-/ would have remained in circulation and when not - they were still interchangeably called by their old names. So, for example, a thrupenny bit went out instantly but you still saw old shillings used as 5ps for ages? I was very young and might be misremembering. But so far as I recall, even a couple of years after decimilisation, a 5p looked like or even was, an old shilling, and people still sometimes called them that..?

Dr_Baltar · Dec 5, 2017

Ghost In The Machine said:
Just to add to the credibility of that one...

I was at primary school when decimilisation happened and am pretty sure (older folk here might be more certain?) that some older people at that time would still call 5p a shilling or a bob a good few years afterwards. Not sure when the actual shilling was phased out, but think that whilst some coins were instantly obsolete after decimilisation, something with a direct equivalent like 5p= 1-/ would have remained in circulation and when not - they were still interchangeably called by their old names. So, for example, a thrupenny bit went out instantly but you still saw old shillings used as 5ps for ages? I was very young and might be misremembering. But so far as I recall, even a couple of years after decimilisation, a 5p looked like or even was, an old shilling, and people still sometimes called them that..?

Yup. Some of us still call a 5p a bob (and associated idioms, e.g. as bent as a nine bob note), although perhaps less frequently now. The actual coin was still legal to use up to the end of 1990.

Carl Grove · Dec 5, 2017

CuriousIdent said:
A Stationary Moment in Time

Location: Great Yarmouth, Norfolk

Date: 1973

Type: Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

Persons Involved: An individual only referred to as “Mr Squirrel”.

Number of Persons Involved: 1

Interactions:

Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.

Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.

Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.

Physical – Physically interacting with another person or persons.

Auditory – Hearing a sudden change in the level of background noise in the area.

Source of Testimony: Appears in "The Directory of Possibilities," edited by Colin Wilson and John Grant (published 1981) but is referencing an account from “The Mask of Time” by Joan Forman (published by Macdonald and Jane's - 1979).

Description: This much re-relayed story is of an account given by a ‘Mr Squirrel’, who at some point in 1973 walked into a Stationers located somewhere in the Norfolk coastal town of Great Yarmouth, looking for some envelopes.

He was served by a woman who appeared to be in Edwardian dress and bought three dozen envelopes. The bill came to One Shilling.

Recalling the event Mr Squirrel attested that he had noticed that the building was extremely silent. There was no obvious traffic noise from outside.

He revisited the shop again, approximately 3 weeks later. But on doing so he was surprised to find the shop completely changed and modernised. The assistant, an elderly lady, denied that there had been any other assistant in the shop in previous weeks.

The previously purchased envelopes apparently “disintegrated very quickly”.

Joan Forman claimed to have interviewed Mr Squirrel after hearing about the case, during which occasion he was able to produce one of the remaining envelopes to show her. Forman claimed to have written to the manufacturers, who had informed him that such envelopes had ceased to be manufactured by them some 15 years before.

Notes:

You will find various retellings of this story in several places online – all of which seem to refer to Joan Forman’s testimony, but a different distances and via several difference go-between sources.

Mr Squirrel’s first name has never been revealed.

It is uncertain how Mr Squirrel would have paid ‘One Shilling’ two years after Britain’s decimalisation of currency. Nor is it mentioned whether his modern currency was either accepted or questioned by the shop assistant.

No details are provided over the interior of the shop. Was this simply a woman appearing to be in Edwardian dress or had the interior of the shop also changed in some fashion?

We do not know the name of the stationers or where it may have been located within Great Yarmouth.

Some references online mention the type of envelope Mr Squirrel as not only being discontinued at some point in 1968, but that they had ‘been first made around 1920’. I am unable to verify that, as I do not own the book to confirm if that was mentioned in The Mask of Time.

It also entirely possible that Mr Squirrel was simply sold some very old envelopes. Although that doesn't entirely account for the shop assistant or her attire.

I must admit that it was this case, when I first read it in Joan Forman's book, that really triggered my interest in time slips, when I first read it in 1985. The account in that book doesn't say which company made the little envelopes, nor how Forman located it, and it obviously leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Regarding the shop interior, I will quote from her account:

"the facade seemed brightly-painted, and gave the impression of newness as he crossed the threshold... (inside) there were a number of photograph frames with flower motifs around them standing on the counter; there was an old till-box also, and a container in a corner full of coloured walking-sticks. He noticed that the floor covering was of "oilcloth"... of a motley pattern. He had a general impression of something unusual about the shop's interior.." At this moment the shop assistant, about 32-3, wearing a long black skirt, an old fashioned blouse and hair in a bun. Forman comments, correctly, that in the early 70s (and late 60s, if I recall right) it was not that unusual to see girls wearing Edwardian styles. When he asked about envelopes for his coins, she produced a long brown box containing rows of them. "Mr Squirrel took three dozen envelopes, and was delighted to find that they only cost him a shilling... even in 1975 [presumably when Forman interviewed him] this elderly Norfolk man still used the pre-decimal terms... The only puzzling feature of this part of the transaction was that the assistant stared in astonishment at the coin (decimal money) he had given her. However, without comment, she placed the envelopes in a larger bag which bore the shop's name across it..." Mr Squirrel then left and returned home, telling a lady friend about his good luck and plan to return to the shop the following week: but then the cobbles had vanished, "the interior and exterior of the building looked dark and weathered", the walking sticks and photo frames were gone, and the assistant, in her 50s, denied both that the shop had been redecorated that week and that a young lady ever worked there. Nor did they stock such envelopes. The manager was called over and confirmed this. Within a few days the printed bag with the shop's name disintegrated and the plastic envelopes turned brown, though the witness still had some when the author interviewed him 18 months later.

Joan Forman wondered why the shop and assistant looked Edwardian if the plastic envelopes were of 1920s vintage, but I imagine that many shops of that period kept an old fashioned look, especially in the provinces, and not all young ladies in the 1920s adopted the short-skirted clothes that we associate with that era.

So this case falls short of definitive evidence, but I think sufficient data are present to assess it as a genuine type 4 incident, with social and physical interaction.

Some people (including Forman) have made something out of the strange silence noted by Mr Squirrel, but we are so used to a noisy environment nowadays that going back to the early 20th century would certainly strike one as unusually quiet. (After living in the London area for most of my life, moving to a street in a country town struck me as almost disturbingly quiet, like every day being a Sunday!)

henry · Dec 5, 2017

should that be stationery moment in time ?

gerhard1 · Dec 5, 2017

Dr_Baltar said:
Yup. Some of us still call a 5p a bob (and associated idioms, e.g. as bent as a nine bob note), although perhaps less frequently now. The actual coin was still legal to use up to the end of 1990.

Let's see if I have it correctly: 20p = 1 shilling, 12 shillings = 1 pound sterling. Is this correct?

Sorry for OT.

Ghost In The Machine · Dec 5, 2017

gerhard1 said:
Let's see if I have it correctly: 20p = 1 shilling, 12 shillings = 1 pound sterling. Is this correct?

Sorry for OT.

12 pence in a shilling (6d was half a shilling). And in new money a shilling was 5p. Didn't remember this so looked it up and apparently 20 shillings was £1. I remember seeing farthings (1/4 of a pence) but they were no longer legal tender when I was a kid in the 60s. But we had 1/2d, 3d, and 6ds. ("d" = "p")

I can remember buying things that were half a crown but have no clue how much a half crown (or crown?) was! We knew decimilisation was coming in, so were taught both systems and also imperial and decimal measures, simultaneously. My pocket money was two shillings and sixpence (12 1/2p?)

Seems Mr Squirrel (!) used a modern 5p but it would have looked the same, on first glance, as a shilling. Had the woman looked closer though she would have had a puzzled reaction. I seem to recall the original 5p piece (it's now smaller?) and the shilling being the same kinda weight and size.

A plastic envelope, though??? I guess some kind of celluloid was around...

Naughty_Felid · Dec 5, 2017

Carl Grove said:
I must admit that it was this case, when I first read it in Joan Forman's book, that really triggered my interest in time slips, when I first read it in 1985. The account in that book doesn't say which company made the little envelopes, nor how Forman located it, and it obviously leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Regarding the shop interior, I will quote from her account:

"the facade seemed brightly-painted, and gave the impression of newness as he crossed the threshold... (inside) there were a number of photograph frames with flower motifs around them standing on the counter; there was an old till-box also, and a container in a corner full of coloured walking-sticks. He noticed that the floor covering was of "oilcloth"... of a motley pattern. He had a general impression of something unusual about the shop's interior.." At this moment the shop assistant, about 32-3, wearing a long black skirt, an old fashioned blouse and hair in a bun. Forman comments, correctly, that in the early 70s (and late 60s, if I recall right) it was not that unusual to see girls wearing Edwardian styles. When he asked about envelopes for his coins, she produced a long brown box containing rows of them. "Mr Squirrel took three dozen envelopes, and was delighted to find that they only cost him a shilling... even in 1975 [presumably when Forman interviewed him] this elderly Norfolk man still used the pre-decimal terms... The only puzzling feature of this part of the transaction was that the assistant stared in astonishment at the coin (decimal money) he had given her. However, without comment, she placed the envelopes in a larger bag which bore the shop's name across it..." Mr Squirrel then left and returned home, telling a lady friend about his good luck and plan to return to the shop the following week: but then the cobbles had vanished, "the interior and exterior of the building looked dark and weathered", the walking sticks and photo frames were gone, and the assistant, in her 50s, denied both that the shop had been redecorated that week and that a young lady ever worked there. Nor did they stock such envelopes. The manager was called over and confirmed this. Within a few days the printed bag with the shop's name disintegrated and the plastic envelopes turned brown, though the witness still had some when the author interviewed him 18 months later.

Joan Forman wondered why the shop and assistant looked Edwardian if the plastic envelopes were of 1920s vintage, but I imagine that many shops of that period kept an old fashioned look, especially in the provinces, and not all young ladies in the 1920s adopted the short-skirted clothes that we associate with that era.

So this case falls short of definitive evidence, but I think sufficient data are present to assess it as a genuine type 4 incident, with social and physical interaction.

Some people (including Forman) have made something out of the strange silence noted by Mr Squirrel, but we are so used to a noisy environment nowadays that going back to the early 20th century would certainly strike one as unusually quiet. (After living in the London area for most of my life, moving to a street in a country town struck me as almost disturbingly quiet, like every day being a Sunday!)

Why would anyone look at a coin in astonishment? We've all been given foreign coins and thought "oh that's interesting" but never needed to sit down and have a cup of tea to calm our nerves afterwards.

Also the actual physical evidence of the envelopes and their lack of examination and follow up is frankly shoddy.

Carl Grove · Dec 5, 2017

Ghost In The Machine said:
12 pence in a shilling (6d was half a shilling). And in new money a shilling was 5p. Didn't remember this so looked it up and apparently 20 shillings was £1. I remember seeing farthings (1/4 of a pence) but they were no longer legal tender when I was a kid in the 60s. But we had 1/2d, 3d, and 6ds. ("d" = "p")well

I can remember buying things that were half a crown but have no clue how much a half crown (or crown?) was! We knew decimilisation was coming in, so were taught both systems and also imperial and decimal measures, simultaneously. My pocket money was two shillings and sixpence (12 1/2p?)

Seems Mr Squirrel (!) used a modern 5p but it would have looked the same, on first glance, as a shilling. Had the woman looked closer though she would have had a puzzled reaction. I seem to recall the original 5p piece (it's now smaller?) and the shilling being the same kinda weight and size.

A plastic envelope, though??? I guess some kind of celluloid was around...

Half a crown was 2 shillings and six pence, 2s 6d, or 2/6 ("two and six"). They did change the size of some coins and got rid of some later on. Crowns were only issued commemoratively and were 5 shillings.

Celluloid had been invented well before 1920 and used in film etc. Many plastics were first invented in the 1890s if I recall correctly.

Carl Grove · Dec 5, 2017

Naughty_Felid said:
Why would anyone look at a coin in astonishment? We've all been given foreign coins and thought "oh that's interesting" but never needed to sit down and have a cup of tea to calm our nerves afterwards.

Also the actual physical evidence of the envelopes and their lack of examination and follow up is frankly shoddy.

Agreed. I think that Joan Forman had the SPR sort of idea in her mind, time slips = ESP based hallucinations, and really wasn't prepared to have to deal with physicality. With hindsight we can see that she missed a great opportunity. But look at what could be done today e.g. in LIverpool, where just a little detective work might bring to light further evidence supporting some witnesses.

Naughty_Felid · Dec 5, 2017

Carl Grove said:
Half a crown was 2 shillings and six pence, 2s 6d, or 2/6 ("two and six"). They did change the size of some coins and got rid of some later on. Crowns were only issued commemoratively and were 5 shillings.

Celluloid had been invented well before 1920 and used in film etc. Many plastics were first invented in the 1890s if I recall correctly.

I know this, that's not what I'm saying. Astonished shop assistant but she still takes the money. Did none of this strike Mr Squirrel as strange?

You have physical evidence still around but only contact the envelope company. Wouldn't you follow up on this a bit more send in a photo, take the envelope to them yourself?

The shop itself - so apart from walking sticks and photo frames there was nothing being sold that looked out of place. Pretty specialist shop isn't it?

As a writer you actually got an opportunity to interview a first hand account of a time slip and you come out with a fairly vague account - perhaps the vagueness helps support your Time slip theory?

The book is still available second hand I'll try and get a copy. Unless you can reprint the section Carl and save me some money?

Naughty_Felid · Dec 5, 2017

Naughty_Felid said:
I know this, that's not what I'm saying. Astonished shop assistant but she still takes the money. Did none of this strike Mr Squirrel as strange?

You have physical evidence still around but only contact the envelope company. Wouldn't you follow up on this a bit more send in a photo, take the envelope to them yourself?

The shop itself - so apart from walking sticks and photo frames there was nothing being sold that looked out of place. Pretty specialist shop isn't it?

As a writer you actually got an opportunity to interview a first hand account of a time slip and you come out with a fairly vague account - perhaps the vagueness helps support your Time slip theory?

The book is still available second hand I'll try and get a copy. Unless you can reprint the section Carl and save me some money?

not pissed off with you Carl just a missed opportunity. The trouble with Colin Wilson as well is that he often takes things at face value and just quotes stuff.

Carl Grove · Dec 5, 2017

Naughty_Felid said:
not pissed off with you Carl just a missed opportunity. The trouble with Colin Wilson as well is that he often takes things at face value and just quotes stuff.

I'm just as annoyed about missed opportunities as you. Basically Joan Forman got her info by putting ads in various papers and mags and getting written accounts, although she did interview some other witnesses. But she took the majority (at that time) view that the witnesses were just hallucinated and never actually went to a different time, and I don't think she was prepared for what Mr Squirrel had to say. As you say, it didn't support her theory.
You might get a copy at Abe, and it would be worth looking at her other cases (and disregarding the pages of speculation). My copy wouldn't survive being flattened on the scanner but I could try photographing the relevant pages -- will give it a go tomorrow.
Colin Wilson dealt with so much stuff in his books that I don't suppose he managed to meet many of the authors and witnesses. He could be naive in his judgments sometimes, but that's true of us all I suppose.

The reactions of the shop assistant: well, I can't guess how "astonished" she looked, nor why she still gave Squirrel the envelopes.

By the way I can find two possible "Squirrels" in the East Anglian area who might be the witness but I imagine he would be long dead by now.

Naughty_Felid · Dec 5, 2017

Carl Grove said:
I'm just as annoyed about missed opportunities as you. Basically Joan Forman got her info by putting ads in various papers and mags and getting written accounts, although she did interview some other witnesses. But she took the majority (at that time) view that the witnesses were just hallucinated and never actually went to a different time, and I don't think she was prepared for what Mr Squirrel had to say. As you say, it didn't support her theory.
You might get a copy at Abe, and it would be worth looking at her other cases (and disregarding the pages of speculation). My copy wouldn't survive being flattened on the scanner but I could try photographing the relevant pages -- will give it a go tomorrow.
Colin Wilson dealt with so much stuff in his books that I don't suppose he managed to meet many of the authors and witnesses. He could be naive in his judgments sometimes, but that's true of us all I suppose.

The reactions of the shop assistant: well, I can't guess how "astonished" she looked, nor why she still gave Squirrel the envelopes.

By the way I can find two possible "Squirrels" in the East Anglian area who might be the witness but I imagine he would be long dead by now.

Don't ruin your book on my account Carl, I've seen a cheap copy which won't break the bank.

CuriousIdent · Dec 6, 2017

Hi Carl,

Thanks for quoting a little bit of Forman's book. I'll try to add that into the report post when I get a moment.

Dr_Baltar · Dec 6, 2017

Ghost In The Machine said:
12 pence in a shilling (6d was half a shilling). And in new money a shilling was 5p. Didn't remember this so looked it up and apparently 20 shillings was £1. I remember seeing farthings (1/4 of a pence) but they were no longer legal tender when I was a kid in the 60s. But we had 1/2d, 3d, and 6ds. ("d" = "p")

I can remember buying things that were half a crown but have no clue how much a half crown (or crown?) was! We knew decimilisation was coming in, so were taught both systems and also imperial and decimal measures, simultaneously. My pocket money was two shillings and sixpence (12 1/2p?)

Seems Mr Squirrel (!) used a modern 5p but it would have looked the same, on first glance, as a shilling. Had the woman looked closer though she would have had a puzzled reaction. I seem to recall the original 5p piece (it's now smaller?) and the shilling being the same kinda weight and size.

A plastic envelope, though??? I guess some kind of celluloid was around...

Still OT - Yes, the shilling and the 5p were identical other than their design I believe. As was the florin (two shillings) and the 10p piece. Like the shilling, it remained legal tender for long after decimalisation (until 1993).

Ghost In The Machine · Dec 6, 2017

Naughty_Felid said:
I know this, that's not what I'm saying. Astonished shop assistant but she still takes the money. Did none of this strike Mr Squirrel as strange?

You have physical evidence still around but only contact the envelope company. Wouldn't you follow up on this a bit more send in a photo, take the envelope to them yourself?

The shop itself - so apart from walking sticks and photo frames there was nothing being sold that looked out of place. Pretty specialist shop isn't it?

As a writer you actually got an opportunity to interview a first hand account of a time slip and you come out with a fairly vague account - perhaps the vagueness helps support your Time slip theory?

The book is still available second hand I'll try and get a copy. Unless you can reprint the section Carl and save me some money?

Thinking about it some more, my first port of call if I was checking up on this, would be early 20thC trade directories, or local paper ads to see if a shop selling that kinda stuff was there at any point.

Whoever did the interview did seem to lack rigour and curiosity.

Carl Grove · Dec 6, 2017

Ghost In The Machine said:
Thinking about it some more, my first port of call if I was checking up on this, would be early 20thC trade directories, or local paper ads to see if a shop selling that kinda stuff was there at any point.

Whoever did the interview did seem to lack rigour and curiosity.

It was Joan Forman herself. The question I immediately had was, well, what was the name of the shop emblazoned on the bag?

Dr_Baltar said:
Still OT - Yes, the shilling and the 5p were identical other than their design I believe. As was the florin (two shillings) and the 10p piece. Like the shilling, it remained legal tender for long after decimalisation (until 1993).

Therefore Squirrel handed over a coin of the right size but with a somewhat different design on it. The assistant possibly had a moment of confusion then assumed it was some special commemorative coin.

Ghost In The Machine · Dec 7, 2017

Yes, the original 5p coins, before they got smaller, would superficially resemble a shilling. It was pretty well the only coin that remained the same, IIRC. That said, everyone would know that in 1973 and that touch would make the story more credible...

David Plankton · Dec 7, 2017

Ghost In The Machine said:
Yes, the original 5p coins, before they got smaller, would superficially resemble a shilling. It was pretty well the only coin that remained the same, IIRC.

As with the florin (see Dr. Baltar's post above) in circulation well into the 1980's.

Ghost In The Machine · Dec 7, 2017

David Plankton said:
As with the florin (see Dr. Baltar's post above) in circulation well into the 1980's.

Ah thanks, David! I don't remember a florin and wasn't sure if 5p/a bob was the only almost identical coin. That's the mythical one like 'a half crown' in my head - I sort of know the name of the coin but have no idea what it was worth or what it looked like!

Developing some sort of way of categorising these timeslips, like we can see on this thread, would be helpful now to anyone interviewing someone who had experienced one, because it would help approach this with a bit more rigour. The coinage thing strikes me as an interesting example because the shilling/5p detail would be self evident in 1973, but might be lost to us now. But the devil is probably in the details with all these things, really.

Dr_Baltar · Dec 7, 2017

Sorry, OT again. These are the coins I remember using, pretty much identical in everything but design:

Shilling:

http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/pics/qe/1s/1s53e.jpg

Five Pence:

http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/pics/dec/05/5_80.jpg

Florin:

http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/pics/qe/2s/2s53.jpg

Ten Pence:

http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/pics/dec/10/10_80.jpg

henry · Dec 7, 2017

Ghost In The Machine said:
Developing some sort of way of categorising these timeslips, like we can see on this thread, would be helpful now to anyone interviewing someone who had experienced one, because it would help approach this with a bit more rigour.

is this data now in a spreadsheet, or similar, which can be attached, or shared, as they say ?

CuriousIdent · Dec 8, 2017

henry said:
is this data now in a spreadsheet, or similar, which can be attached, or shared, as they say ?

Coal · Dec 8, 2017

CuriousIdent said:
It is not. I have begun putting things into report form on this thread, using a common set of terms and types which Carl Grove and myself have been working on. But it is not in a spreadsheet or database form as of yet.

If anybody were interested in assisting doing that, of course? The idea would be to use these reports as data for those.

What we have so far is listed below:

UK & Ireland

Liverpool:

The shopfront from another time: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-22#post-1720792 post #644

Edwardians in Liverpool City Centre: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-23#post-1722099 post #687

Devon:

The Best Kept Village of 1976: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-22#post-1721424 post #657

Berkshire:

Timeslip at Windsor Rail Station: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-23#post-1721863 Post #682

Norfolk:

A Furious Coachman in King’s Lynn: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-24#post-1722370 Post #702

A Stationery Moment in Time: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-25#post-1723056 Post #728

Surrey:

A Phantom Public House: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-24#post-1722864 Post #708

Outside the UK:

Europe:

France:

The Avignon Rural Hotel: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-22#post-1720791 post #643

Caribbean:

Haiti:

Seeing Paris in Haiti: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-23#post-1721855 Post #681

America:

Iowa:

A lift home from 10 years earlier: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-24#post-1722876 Post #712

I'll try to update this post with each new report I add, but obviously it will take some time.

I might be worth investigating how to get data into SQL in the long run.

It's also worth, when parsing transcribed accounts for data points, using peer review, which is to say, have two (at least) people extract the data from the accounts and then compare notes. You're undertaking a form of discourse analysis and without peer review, comparison and discussion, this can easily be way way too subjective.

CuriousIdent · Dec 8, 2017

Coal said:
I might be worth investigating how to get data into SQL in the long run.

It's also worth, when parsing transcribed accounts for data points, using peer review, which is to say, have two (at least) people extract the data from the accounts and then compare notes. You're undertaking a form of discourse analysis and without peer review, comparison and discussion, this can easily be way way too subjective.

In the long run, yes. But that's beyond my expertise. So standardising for others to work with is what's on offer.

The reports posted up are a collaborative thing. If anybody wishes to dispute anything listed in a report please do let me know.

But this is not a scientific process. It is method of recording stories and connecting them where relevant.

CuriousIdent · Dec 8, 2017

The Pub that Vanished

Location: Isle of Wight

Date: November 1982

Type: Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

Persons Involved: Laurie West

Number of Persons Involved: 2

Interactions:

Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.
Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
Sensory –Subject tastes or consumes food or drink.

Source of Testimony: Gay Baldwin’s series of Isle of Wight eBooks - http://www.ghostisland.com

Description:

On a night in November 1982, Laurie West and an unknown friend set out from Newtown, on the Isle of Wight. At some point in their evening they hey came upon a pub named either ‘the Falcon’ or ‘the Vulcan’.

The bar was apparently quite old-fashioned, felt unwelcoming and cold. As Laurie and friend entered a number patrons were said to have turned their eyes towards them and their previous conversations ceased.

They ordered drinks but drank them swiftly and left. The beer apparently tasted bad or ‘off’.

The pub was located along a narrow lane somewhere between Newtown and Calbourne. They did try to find it again on separate occasions, but were not successful. Neither the lane nor pub were located again.

Notes: This tale is repeated and retold across a number of ghost story sites online. The similarity of phrasing in each version could be suspicious enough to consider it as creepypasta.

However, the key difference with Gay Baldwin’s book is that in all other telling of the story no names or dates are supplied. She provides a source (Laurie West) and the date of November 1982.

In an article about another similar case (from a different book of her) she describes West:

When Laurie West originally contacted me about his encounter that night, it wasn’t with the intention of having his story printed - in fact he was most reluctant to do so - it was to find out if anyone else had reported a similar experience. Nobody had - until now. (You can read Laurie West’s account of The Pub that Vanished in More Ghosts of the Isle of Wight.)

The similar case she is referring to is that of Wendy and Gary Lacey, who had a similar experience with an Isle of Wight pub which they never managed to find again.

Likewise FTMB forum member Anonentity claims to have had a similar experience back in 1969. Although he believed his experience to have more in common with the Lacey’s account than this one.

He did however also posit that:

I am fairly sure the Vulcan was a pub which has long closed down, outside of Carisbrooke which was up on the hills before you went out on the road to the Shalfleet Brighstone area, It was usually called the Forge, because that was what it originally was. It had a few football tables and a bowling area.

Discussion over that prompted Ghughesarch to mention that:

There was (and still is) a pub called the Blacksmith's Arms, which maps of c1900 show was originally a smithy, roughly where you describe, on the Calbourne road out of Carisbrooke.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6...03&h=100&yaw=37.340668&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

And also that:

Every version of this Isle of Wight story does seem to be explicable as confusion arising from approaching the Blacksmith's Arms at Calbourne from the appropriately named Betty Haunt Lane, which runs south from the Forest Road to Calbourne Road aka Middle Road, which are parallel and quite similar in general character - except one has a pub on it and the other does not. They are linked by several similar-looking minor lanes but only Betty Haunt Lane gives you a view of the pub on the approach with the gravelled car park in front.

There is no trace of any pub called either Falcon or Vulcan in that part of the island on any map I've seen between the 1880s and the present day - The Blacksmith's Arms does fit the bill, I wonder if it ever had an image of Vulcan on its sign?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6...4!1s_EiDRHO6mb-y6FvXg3jzVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

CuriousIdent · Dec 8, 2017

Another Vanishing Pub

Location: Isle of Wight

Date: Summer 1990

Type: Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

Persons Involved: Wendy and Gary Lacey.

Number of Persons Involved: 2

Interactions:

Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.
Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
Sensory –Subject tastes or consumes food or drink.

Source of Testimony: Gay Baldwin’s series of Isle of Wight eBooks - http://www.ghostisland.com And the sample used in the description is from here: http://www.ghostisland.com/latest-stories-and-pictures?gid=25

Description: I’ll quote directly from the post on Gay Baldwin’s site (up to the pay to read more point):

In 1992 I wrote a strange and intriguing story about ‘The Pub That Wasn’t There’ This mysterious inn, somewhere between Newtown and Calbourne, has never been seen again since two Island friends dropped in there for a drink, one dark November night in 1982. Many readers are fascinated by this tale and more than a few have even tried to find it for themselves. I suppose a ghost-pub crawl is a good way to spend an evening and come home sober!

When Laurie West originally contacted me about his encounter that night, it wasn’t with the intention of having his story printed - in fact he was most reluctant to do so - it was to find out if anyone else had reported a similar experience. Nobody had - until now. (You can read Laurie West’s account of The Pub that Vanished in More Ghosts of the Isle of Wight.)

Once again this new story came to me in a roundabout way, via a friend of a friend. I wasn’t approached directly; in fact Wendy and Gary Lacey were initially surprised and dismayed that I wanted to talk to them about it. However, they finally agreed to meet me and for almost two hours we talked, going over their account in exhaustive detail. It bears certain similarities to Laurie’s story, but there are many essential differences, as you will see.

It was early one summer’s evening in 1990 and the couple who now live at Hazel Close in Upper Ventnor, had just dropped their young son Robert off at Corfe Scout Camp near Newtown. The weather was fine so they drove back via Yarmouth, where they intended to have a meal. However they were too early and the restaurants weren’t yet open.

“We continued out of Yarmouth, past Chessell and Brook, towards Shorwell. Somewhere, between Brook and Brighstone, at between 5pm and 6pm we stopped off at a pub. It was similar to but was definitely not, the Sun Inn at Hulverstone. The two-storey stone building, which had a slate roof, was decorated with a string of old-fashioned electric light bulbs, and there was an empty gravelled area at the side, where Gary parked our old Metro.

“From where we left the car we could see fields and the Downs. We could hear birds singing, for remarkably, there was no traffic passing on the road. It was a strange place,” said Wendy. “Gary who works as a postman has lived on the Isle of Wight all his life, and I’ve grown up here too. We both know our way around the Island pretty well – and where all the pubs are! However, this was not one we had ever seen before. We stood outside, in two minds whether or not to go in. Then Gary said, ‘Let’s go for it,’ and we pushed the front door open and stepped inside. Buy Most Haunted Island NOW to read more.....of this incredible story

Carl Grove purchased said book and relayed the following:

...without going into too much detail, the Laceys hesitated to enter the pub, since Gary, a postman, knew the area well and knew there should be no pub there.

They went in to find a large, old fashioned room with old blue lino. Although it was warm outside it felt chilly there. The landlord in a checked shirt and trousers belted high on his waist and his Mrs (presumably) in a similarly outdated style. They had no wine but sold Wendy a cider and Gary a beer. They had no crisps or any other food. The change seemed wrong, but it wasn't until they left that they discovered it had old pennies in it.

The sound quality seemed muted. The other customers, about 20 of them, all farming types in older style clothes, stared at them. Wendy, in jeans, felt out of place. They stayed only long enough to finish their drinks, 15 mins, then left. The road was still empty, and they drove to Brighstone, where there were cars and people and life, and it seemed as if they had wakened from a dream.

Notes:

The earlier case Gay Baldwin is speaking of is covered by the Report here:

The Pub That Vanished

In 2016 FTMB poster Anonentity mentioned that this account seemed very similar to his own vanishing pub experience.

The Wendy and Gary Lacey ,seems to be a dead ringer for what we saw, I only read the story up to the part when they went in, were talking a twenty year difference in times.

...the Wendy and Gary report, up until they went in was exactly as we saw it with the coloured lights the gravel area etc. I actually thought it might be a sort of trick where they might have opened the pub when they felt like a bit of fun, but as reported we never found it again

Anonentity also tried contacting the Laceys via Facebook. It was never answered as to whether he was successful, and Anonentity has not been active on these boards since late in 2016.

CuriousIdent · Dec 8, 2017

The Vanishing Pub with theatrical owners

Location: The Isle of Wight

Date: Roughly 1969.

Type: Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

Persons Involved: FTMB poster Anonentity and his wife.

Number of Persons Involved: 2

Interactions:

Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.
Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
Sensory –Subject tastes or consumes food or drink.

Source of Testimony: This very thread. Post #314

Description: To quote:

I was always a bit worried as to whether to post this experience, I don't want to appear fanciful but it was only a few years back that the suspicion started growing that this experience might have been a genuine dimensional slip.

Back in about 1969 I was living on the Isle of Wight. My wife and I decided to go out pubbing, so we drove out along the Forest road, then did a right turn, down a country road, about 7pm, we noticed a pub in the twilight, it had lights, a porch and a parking area made of gravel, we went in off the main road and parked, and went into the pub, we were the only car in the park, we had to stoop down as it seemed very old fashioned, did a left turn at the main door and ended up in a public bar, with pictures of the patrons on the walls, we were told they were theatrical. In fact we had a great night, the hostess who claimed to be eighty ended up doing a dance on the table.

About ten we left, and went home. The next week we thought that we had such a great time we would retrace our route and do the same again. The funny thing was, we spent about an hour going up and down the same road, and we never found that pub again. So we went to another one and let it be, I think we might have looked again a few times but with no luck.

Then many years later, I came across some stories about some other people that had the same experience, in the same area, they were reported in Ghost stories, of the Isle of Wight.

I genuinely am at a loss to explain this. The fact that the Pub was quite full, but we were the only car in the Park. In fact it seemed like a genuine Country Pub, how the heck you can loose a pub on roads you have been up and down most of your life seems strange to me. But the older I get the weirder it gets.

Notes:

Anonentity does note that he felt it was unusual that the pub was filled with customers despite theirs being the only car in the car park. Although it is unclear how far this pub was from other houses or places of work, for those who chose to frequent it to have traveled from.

On hearing this account Carl Grove posted that he had also heard of two other accounts of similar ‘vanishing pubs’ on the Isle of Wight:

I found summaries of those two other vanishing pub cases, one in Nov 1982 involving a pub called the Vulcan or Falcon on a lane running left from the Newtown to Shalfleet Road. About 15 patrons in the public bar stopped talking and stared at the two witnesses. The drinks tasted bad and they left, and never could find the lane again.

The second, in Summer 1990, involved a couple, Wendy and Gary Lacey who found a pub between Brook and Brighstone also with a gravel area outside.

The first of these cases is covered by The Pub That Vanished.

The second in Another Vanishing Pub

The former of these two seemed to jog Anonentity’s memory:

I am fairly sure the Vulcan was a pub which has long closed down, outside of Carisbrooke which was up on the hills before you went out on the road to the Shalfleet Brighstone area, It was usually called the Forge, because that was what it originally was. It had a few football tables and a bowling area.

You can find a number of near identical versions of the Vulcan/Falcon Pub legend online. For example, this one from Ghosts and Hauntings.co.uk

You may possibly never ever find this one, but have enjoyable trying! One dark November night, two Island guys set out from Newtown, on what became the strangest night of their lives. They came upon a pub – the Falcon or the Vulcan – where they shared a drink with some unsociable spirits. The drab bar felt unwelcoming and cold. Hostile eyes turned towards the two strangers and all conversation ceased. They drank up swiftly and left. The strange old-fashioned pub, which was along a narrow lane someplace between Newtown and Calbourne, has never ever been seen once again. In spite of repeated attempts, neither the lane nor ghostly pub has ever been located.

The fact Google yields so many versions of this tale with near identical text, and lack of credible sourcing, may suggest this to be more likely as a ghost story or urban legend. However Gay Baldwin claims to have had this story (which she named ‘The Pub That Vanished’ – Report linked to above) told to here by the man who experienced it (one Laurie West). It is included in her book More Ghosts of the Isle of Wight.

Anonentity did feel that the second account had more common ground with his own experience though:

The Wendy and Gary Lacey ,seems to be a dead ringer for what we saw, I only read the story up to the part when they went in, were talking a twenty year difference in times.

But I can remember it clearly , how many eighty year olds get up on a table and start dancing, she had a good pair of legs as well. She was a redhead, and the bar had pictures of her and her husband during their theatrical days. The Patrons were gregarious and offered the information that they were a theatrical couple...

...the Wendy and Gary report, up until they went in was exactly as we saw it with the coloured lights the gravel area etc. I actually thought it might be a sort of trick where they might have opened the pub when they felt like a bit of fun, but as reported we never found it again.

Carl Grove pointed out that most of the Laceys testimony was actually behind the paywall of Gay Baldwin’s book. Which he then purchased in order to relay more information from:

...without going into too much detail, the Laceys hesitated to enter the pub, since Gary, a postman, knew the area well and knew there should be no pub there.

They went in to find a large, old fashioned room with old blue lino. Although it was warm outside it felt chilly there. The landlord in a checked shirt and trousers belted high on his waist and his Mrs (presumably) in a similarly outdated style. They had no wine but sold Wendy a cider and Gary a beer. They had no crisps or any other food. The change seemed wrong, but it wasn't until they left that they discovered it had old pennies in it.

The sound quality seemed muted. The other customers, about 20 of them, all farming types in older style clothes, stared at them. Wendy, in jeans, felt out of place. They stayed only long enough to finish their drinks, 15 mins, then left. The road was still empty, and they drove to Brighstone, where there were cars and people and life, and it seemed as if they had wakened from a dream.

Discussion over Anonentity’s mention of the Vulcan pub once having been called ‘The Forge’ started up a second line of conversation. Ghughesarch noted that:

There was (and still is) a pub called the Blacksmith's Arms, which maps of c1900 show was originally a smithy, roughly where you describe, on the Calbourne road out of Carisbrooke.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6...03&h=100&yaw=37.340668&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

And also that:

Every version of this Isle of Wight story does seem to be explicable as confusion arising from approaching the Blacksmith's Arms at Calbourne from the appropriately named Betty Haunt Lane, which runs south from the Forest Road to Calbourne Road aka Middle Road, which are parallel and quite similar in general character - except one has a pub on it and the other does not. They are linked by several similar-looking minor lanes but only Betty Haunt Lane gives you a view of the pub on the approach with the gravelled car park in front.

There is no trace of any pub called either Falcon or Vulcan in that part of the island on any map I've seen between the 1880s and the present day - The Blacksmith's Arms does fit the bill, I wonder if it ever had an image of Vulcan on its sign?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6...4!1s_EiDRHO6mb-y6FvXg3jzVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Anonentity remained certain though, that the pub presented was not that which he visited. He was also asked if he could remember more about the woman he had been seen dancing on the table.

I cant remember her name, i've got the feeling she was with the wartime entertainment corps. If she was eighty in nineteen seventy, She might have been at the end of her career, around the war years.

As a final note, Anonentity tried to approach Wendy and Gary Lacey (from the earlier vanishing pub account) via Facebook. At last posting he had sent them request, but was yet to hear anything back. Unfortunately Anonentity has been absent from the FTMB since autumn 2016, so further news on whether he did receive contact is unlikely at this point.

CuriousIdent · Dec 8, 2017

As all three of those do have plausible connections I made sure to add the all at roughly the same time, and linked to each other in the notes field.

David Plankton · Dec 8, 2017

CuriousIdent said:
As all three of those do have plausible connections I made sure to add the all at roughly the same time, and linked to each other in the notes field.

This is a site that may come in useful, The Lost Pubs Project.
http://closedpubs.co.uk/

Isle of Wight page doesn't have any Falcons, Vulcans or even Falchions but you can check it here

http://closedpubs.co.uk/hampshire/isleofwight.html

Time Or Dimensional Slips

Justified & Ancient

Left Foot of God

Justified & Ancient

still speeding

Abominable Snowman

Justified & Ancient

kneesy earsy nosey

Justified & Ancient

Justified & Ancient

kneesy earsy nosey

kneesy earsy nosey

Justified & Ancient

kneesy earsy nosey

Not yet SO old Great Old One

Left Foot of God

Justified & Ancient

Justified & Ancient

Justified & Ancient

I AM HIM.

Justified & Ancient

Left Foot of God

still speeding

Not yet SO old Great Old One

Account Retired

Not yet SO old Great Old One

Not yet SO old Great Old One

Not yet SO old Great Old One

Not yet SO old Great Old One

Not yet SO old Great Old One

I AM HIM.