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Timekeeping (Clocks, Horology, Methods, Standards)

Floyd1 said:
That's why there's no midnight or midday in the army. It's either 11.59/ 12.01 or 23.59/ 00.01.
I don't however, see the possible confusion about meeting someone at midnight on Saturday? Midnight occurs at the end of the day in question. ?
And the reason it's done (in the UK) is because otherwise it wouldn't get light until late in the morning in Scotland.
Mind you it's like an old American Indian once said "only the white man can cut a foot off one end of a blanket, sew it back on to the other end and think he's got a longer blanket".
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I've found about 80% of Americans think midnight is at the end of the day and 20% at the beginning.

I don't think most people think about it at all.
 
I worked at a plant that had an entire train load of material scheduled to arrive at midnight Tuesday. Like some people the dispatcher believed midnight was the first moment of the day. But the guy he talked to had though it was the first moment of the day so the crew was called out a day early. Incredibly they both got blamed for it and it became standard operating procedure to use 11:59 PM or 12:01 AM. That lasted about a year until everyone forgot. I remember another time someone thought noon was 12 PM but I don't remember if the crews were twelve hours early or twelve hours late.

A couple thousand US marines landed near Omaha Beach on D-Day. There job was to scale a very steep cliff depicted on their map as about 80 degrees. The problem was that there was no standard practice for depicting overhanging cliffs and they had no equipment to climb them so many of them were killed. There is still no standard practice to depict overhanging cliffs. Despite the loss of life nobody cares.

A walkway in (Kansas City?) collapsed some years back because someone substituted a metric "equivalent" bolt for an English measurement. The US didn't have the simple common sense to go metric and some purchaser found an opportunity to buy ever so slightly smaller bolts at a much lower price. The bridge collapsed killing a couple dozen people.

We just don't learn.

Most accidents and fatalities are caused by gross incompetence and slack jawed stupidity but we often find more subtle ways to create catastrophe.

There's a story in ancient literature that I believe describes the punishment for a man, the ferryman, who steps away from his job momentarily and inadvertently overfills a counterweight causing a "car" full of men to crash while building the pyramid. They cut off his toes. He kept his job and his dignity but worked without toes from then on to remind him to pay attention.

Today we promote those who cause the accidents and fire those who try to prevent them.
 
mummyknave said:
A walkway in (Kansas City?) collapsed some years back because someone substituted a metric "equivalent" bolt for an English measurement. The US didn't have the simple common sense to go metric and some purchaser found an opportunity to buy ever so slightly smaller bolts at a much lower price.
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Metric is no more accurate or consistent than Imperial.

ldiots who cut corners will remain idiots who cut corners.

Enforcing a nationwide change to a different system would kill a lot more people.

maximus otter
 
maximus otter said:
Metric is no more accurate or consistent than Imperial.
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My Dad (who knew a thing or two about engineering) always maintained that an Imperial thread was superior to a metric thread, because the thread pitch meant that the metric thread was finer (and therefore more likely to get stripped under load). I have no idea if this is true.
 
Floyd1 said:
But 'noon' is 12.00pm?
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Actually, no it isn't.

12 noon falls in the middle of the day but is neither AM (before noon) nor PM (after noon).

If it were 12 PM it would make midnight 12 AM by default.

This is a simple enough problem with many many ways to fix it but the UN can't even do this in 75 years.
 
Mythopoeika said:
My Dad (who knew a thing or two about engineering) always maintained that an Imperial thread was superior to a metric thread, because the thread pitch meant that the metric thread was finer (and therefore more likely to get stripped under load). I have no idea if this is true.
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I don't either but I do know bolts rarely strip in such a manner.

Some metric sizes are extremely close to the same size as English and they are substituted some times.
 
I woke up at 4:45 AM to use the bathroom and even though the official sunrise is 5:30 AM the sky was already bright with all the birds singing outside.

I forget how bright the summer morning are.

It must be brighter if you live closer to the North Pole like Scotland or Shetland Islands.

How do people adjust ?
 
For me, the first Sunday in November Daylight Saving Time ends.

My body just hates this back and forth time change and then eventually dark around 4:30 in the evening.

I am not excited about driving in the dark at night.
 
Strange but true:
Recently, I was quizmaster in the local pub quiz. I quite like setting the questions - not to difficult or easy - because I get to peruse lots of utterly worthless trivia.
The most favourite question of the evening was:
Which time-keeping device has the most working parts?
An hourglass
 
charliebrown said:
I woke up at 4:45 AM to use the bathroom and even though the official sunrise is 5:30 AM the sky was already bright with all the birds singing outside.

I forget how bright the summer morning are.

It must be brighter if you live closer to the North Pole like Scotland or Shetland Islands.

How do people adjust ?
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This is an odd one.

The recent spate of unseasonably warm weather had a distinct oddness to me. The warmth just seemed incongruous with the light. The arc of the sun was right for the time of year, but the strength of the sun and the heat just made it seem weird, and I observed quite a few odd effects from odd heat shimmers to weird colour tints and cloud reflections.

Quite unsettling.

It reminded me of a recent t-shirt slogan:
"Don't disturb me.
I'm disturbed enough already."
 
Stormkhan said:
Which time-keeping device has the most working parts?
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I'm usually crap at quizzes but I got that! (Well it was easy and it wasn't about popular culture lol) How did the contestants in your quiz do?

Ascalon said:
Quite unsettling.
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Isn't it just!! It's been really weird being so hot sitting outside having a read in my south facing garden and then getting dark so soon! I keep thinking I've experienced a missing time episode! I'm never ready for the clocks going back malarky but this year I'm almost dreading it. If it's been getting steadily colder in the run up to it, psychologically I can accept it, so it needs to get cold in the next week!
 
Sollywos said:
I'm usually crap at quizzes but I got that! (Well it was easy and it wasn't about popular culture lol) How did the contestants in your quiz do?
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50/50, really. Even those who didn't get it understood it! :)

When it comes to Daylight Savings Time, it doesn't bother me much. I tend to look at the clock rather than the outside, especially in the morning.
It bloody puzzles our dogs and cats, though, because if you have a routine then you jolly well stick to it!
 
charliebrown said:
I feel so tired.
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Ditto! I hate this 'falling back' nonsense. The daft thing is being as how I'm retired it should make no difference whatsoever so why does it? I don't need to be anywhere, I don't regularly watch tv shows that are on at particular times. I'm just being so silly but it always makes me feel low and tired. It's just numbers on a clock face and most of the time I'm not even checking it anyway. It's not as if the Earth has really shifted on it's axis or something so why does it feel so unsettling? For folk still at work/school fair enough of course it makes a difference but to my life? Zilch!
 
Well, we try to eat the evening meal between 5:30 to 6:00 PM, but our bodies tell us that when we were on savings time our bodies think it is late being 6:30 to 7:00 PM.

So it takes a few days to adjust.
 
I have the opposite problem I hate the change to summer time - I am luxuriating in time finally being "right" and not having to get up an hour too early.
Autumn is my favourite time of year - I like it dark, wet and cold (why yes I do live in the West of Scotland) - much easier to get cosy and warm than to cool down. I wish all those who moan about wanting it hot and sunny would do me and them a favour and actually go off to sunnier climes and stay there :p
Meanwhile on the problem of time zones -
 
Mythopoeika said:
My Dad (who knew a thing or two about engineering) always maintained that an Imperial thread was superior to a metric thread, because the thread pitch meant that the metric thread was finer (and therefore more likely to get stripped under load). I have no idea if this is true.
Click to expand...

I bet he knew all about Whitworth threads - a strange relic of a standard where even the pitch angle of the thread was different, 55 degrees instead of 60.

However, I would beg to differ with regards to metric threads being inherently weaker. You can, if you wish, specify pretty much any M thread with any pitch (although, to be fair, the default pitch is fairly fine).

Shall we diverge into UNC, UNF and those bloody confusing tapered Gas threads? No? Good!

Anyway, on topic, I am very much not a fan of putting the clocks back and forth. Pick a time and stick with it! I would prefer BST, but even the "natural" GMT would be OK. It's the changing between the 2 that depresses me.
 
Peripart said:
Anyway, on topic, I am very much not a fan of putting the clocks back and forth. Pick a time and stick with it! I would prefer BST, but even the "natural" GMT would be OK. It's the changing between the 2 that depresses me.
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Agreed! I find both changes disconcerting.
 
If you want to see physical effects of changing the clocks, look to pets.
They can't read the time from a clock - their bodies get into a routine. So they get hungry at about the same time as we've trained them to expect it.
We (and they) slowly adapt, of course. We try to rationalise it by saying "Oh, we get an extra hour in bed" or whatever, but it doesn't make us any less tired.
Time is a physical power, but the measurement and perception of it is a construct.
 
Stormkhan said:
If you want to see physical effects of changing the clocks, look to pets.
They can't read the time from a clock - their bodies get into a routine. So they get hungry at about the same time as we've trained them to expect it.
We (and they) slowly adapt, of course. We try to rationalise it by saying "Oh, we get an extra hour in bed" or whatever, but it doesn't make us any less tired.
Time is a physical power, but the measurement and perception of it is a construct.
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Our dog has her dinner at 6pm (I like her to have a routine).
At around 5.45 she will start to look at us (or whichever one of us is in at the time) waiting for us to say is it tea-time?
On the Sunday when the clocks had gone back, she started her staring game at 4.45pm instead.
 
Peripart said:
I bet he knew all about Whitworth threads - a strange relic of a standard where even the pitch angle of the thread was different, 55 degrees instead of 60.

However, I would beg to differ with regards to metric threads being inherently weaker. You can, if you wish, specify pretty much any M thread with any pitch (although, to be fair, the default pitch is fairly fine).

Shall we diverge into UNC, UNF and those bloody confusing tapered Gas threads? No? Good!

Anyway, on topic, I am very much not a fan of putting the clocks back and forth. Pick a time and stick with it! I would prefer BST, but even the "natural" GMT would be OK. It's the changing between the 2 that depresses me.
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Yes. This being lighter in the evenings thing has never bothered me.

Why do we need it to be light until 10.00pm anyway? (In 1941 we were actually two hours ahead of GMT to allow people more time to get home before the blackout) and various other experiments have been tried, ie from 1968-1971 we were on permanent GMT+1).

Stick with GMT.
 
Stormkhan said:
If you want to see physical effects of changing the clocks, look to pets.
They can't read the time from a clock - their bodies get into a routine. So they get hungry at about the same time as we've trained them to expect it.
We (and they) slowly adapt, of course. We try to rationalise it by saying "Oh, we get an extra hour in bed" or whatever, but it doesn't make us any less tired.
Time is a physical power, but the measurement and perception of it is a construct.
Click to expand...
Just thought of two more examples Storm;

Our old dog used to take himself off to bed at 9pm and a while ago we started putting our dog in the front room and then hiding a few treats around the other room, then letting her back in for her to 'hunt' the treats.

We did this at 7pm and it wasn't long before at that time, she'd start scratching the door for us to put her in the front room.
 
Peripart said:
I bet he knew all about Whitworth threads - a strange relic of a standard where even the pitch angle of the thread was different, 55 degrees instead of 60.
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He did. The shed is like a little museum, stuffed with anachronistic items. I don't know what to do with it all.
Peripart said:
However, I would beg to differ with regards to metric threads being inherently weaker. You can, if you wish, specify pretty much any M thread with any pitch (although, to be fair, the default pitch is fairly fine).
Click to expand...
His knowledge did go out of date about it, yes.
Peripart said:
Shall we diverge into UNC, UNF and those bloody confusing tapered Gas threads? No? Good!
Click to expand...
NO.
 
The local TV is starting to remind the public that daylight savings time starts for us this weekend.

So we spring forward in the spring and if one wakes up this Sunday morning at 6:00 AM, it is really 5 AM.

Ouch !
 
Peripart said:
Anyway, on topic, I am very much not a fan of putting the clocks back and forth. Pick a time and stick with it! I would prefer BST, but even the "natural" GMT would be OK. It's the changing between the 2 that depresses me.
Click to expand...

Absolutely!
 
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