Tiahuanaco / Tiwanaku (City / Culture; Bolivia)

[rynner2]

May as well lob this one into the discussion - Tiahuanacu

The article says nothing really new (and veers towards the loopy fringe at one point, talking of vast underground tunnels and cities), but this is an interesting site, possibly 17,000 years old.

Although today the nearest body of water, Lake Titicaca, is some 15 miles away, numerous archaeological studies indicate Tiahunacu was once a large thriving seaport where literally hundreds of ships may have docked. Historians think the original city was built when the shore was only 600 feet away.

Built before the Great Flood of the Old Testament, the city is one of the oldest on the planet -- if not the oldest.
....
The gate of the sun

The 10-ton Gateway to the Sun is monolithic, carved from a single block of Andesite granite. It is broken through the center, leading investigators to wonder what sort of tremendous forces could have achieved this feat.

The upper portions of the gate are carved with beautiful and intricate designs, including a human figure, condors, toxodons, elephants and some symbols. Directly in the center is the so-called Sun God with rays shooting from its face in all directions. The god is holding a stylized staff in each hand which may represent thunder and lightning. It is sometimes referred to as the "weeping god" because tears are carved on its cheeks.

The figures flanking the centerpiece are unfinished, causing viewers to wonder what could have interrupted the craftsmen. Of the animals represented on the gate, two have been extinct for thousands of years. Jaguars and condors are still with us, but toxodons and elephants can no longer be found in the area. History shows that an elephant-like creature thrived in the area during the Pleistocene era, some 11,000-12,000 years ago.

 

[FraterLibre]

Gryphons

Would finding gryphons and the Medusa and so on carved into Ancient Greek gates lead us to conclude the site dated back to when such creatures frolicked?

Mythology and oral tradition may well account for the accurate (?) depictions of toxodons and elephant-like beasts carved into the "gate of the sun" at Tiahuanacu.

It's also quite possibly 17,000 years old, we don't yet know. And another possibility, since the Pleistocene lasted from 11,000 to 2 million years ago, that a group of such animals lasted longer than we thought, as a population of mastodons may have existed into historical times on an island in northern Russia, for example.

 

[James_H]

what does a toxodon look like?

 

[FraterLibre]

Toxodons

They're those big saber-toothed sloth-looking things.

 

[James_H]

oh THEM! i know what you mean... It does strike me that they could be drawing generic big beasties, that happened to come out looking like toxodons, but then I am fairly stupid.

 

[FraterLibre]

Not Stupid At All

Faggus - Now now, you're not stupid at all. This is indeed quite possible. Human minds work in closely parallel ways through history and all over the globe. The same basic patterns arise over and over. It's very possible they were making things up and happened to make a drawing that accidently resembles a real animal.

It's also possible that the description or even drawings (carvings) were passed down from the time 11,000 years ago or so when the beasts still existed.

Think of the Dodo, which is extinct but which most of us know about. Most of us could draw one well enough that others would recognize what it is, even if we're just aping Tenniel's drawings in the Alice books.

And every kid has vivid images of dinosaurs, and could draw various types scientists might recognize.

Also keep in mind, we don't know how accurate the carvings on the "gate of the sun" at Tiahuanacu are. They could be vague, or anatomically correct. Most likely they're somewhere in between. We also don't know how stylized they are, either.

Interesting report, though. And there seem to be other reasons why they suspect Tiahuanaco could be 17,000 years old, too. To prove this would revolutionize many things.

 

[James_H]

Link to remote image is dead, so the nature of the image is unknown.

Here is a picture that I have found: I can't make out any elephants from where I am, but it gives an indication of detail and style.

Here is a substitute image of the purported "elephant" carved on the Gate of the Sun. The relevant portion is within the highlighted subsection. Some claim it is a frontal view of an elephant-like head.

​

 

[James_H]

and this

is a copy of the alleged toxodon
The image is MIA, and the link to the remotely-hosted image is dead.
Here is a substitute image of 2 Tiwanaku figures alleged by some to represent a taxodon.

​

NOTE: The taxodon was a large bulky mammal analogous to a rhino or hippopotamus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxodon

 

[Anonymous]

OY!! Hancock, NO!!

Radiocarbon dating at Tiahuanaco (Tiwanaku) has shown the site to be no more than 2400 Years old. early settlement began at the site c400BC, beginning a long, 5 Phase Occupation. Large scale building projects began during Phase 3 (c AD 100-375) while the 'Classic' Tiahuanaco ran through phase 4 (ad 375- 700) During phase 4 Tiahanaco attained true 'empire' status, dominating the surrounding area and establishing a Heirarchy of administrative centers, as well as far-flung colonies throughout the Altiplano, The Puna, and the lowlands of southern Peru and northern Chile.

I cannot find any reference to 'Elephant' figures on the Gateway of the sun. there are anthropormorphic Condor headed figures, as well as the 'Gateway God' himself, thought to represent Viracocha. though are we from this to infer that the site was built by Human-Condor Hybrids? frankly i find the idea that Tiwanaku is part of some ancient Atlantis Ludicrous and somewhat rascist (How on earth could those stupid indians have built this. must have been some white Bearded man they thought was a god) , and flies in the face of all the evidence we have of the place.

Radiocarbon Dating at Tiahuanaco Here

Tiahuanaco

http://134.29.9.229/archaeology/sites/south_america/tiwanaku.html

http://www.jqjacobs.net/andes/tiwanaku.html

http://www.intersurf.com/~chalcedony/Tiwanaku.html

 

[KeyserXSoze]

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=10/23/2004&Cat=7&Num=1

Finnish find sheds new light on prehistoric Andean culture

HELSINKI (AFP) - Ceramic artifacts found by Finnish archeologists during a dig in Bolivia have shed new light on the prehistoric Tiwanaku people, of whom little is known, Helsinki University officials said.

"The discovery demonstrates that the Tiwanakus made the highest quality ceramics in the Andean region, with very naturalistic portraits, and thanks to this we now know what they looked like," Martti Paerssinen, a professor from Helsinki University who led the excavations, told AFP.

The Tiwanaku people settled on the Bolivian side of Lake Titicaca in the Andean mountains around 400 BC. They built their administrative centre, the city of Tiwanaku, around 300-500 AD, and their influence in the region continued to grow for several centuries.

Knowledge about the Tiwanakus is however limited as they left no writings and their culture died out in the 11th century.

Today, the Tiwanaku's former capital, some 75 kilometers (45 miles) west of La Paz, is Bolivia's most important archeological site.

The Finnish university has carried out excavations in the area around Lake Titicaca, which is shared between Peru and Bolivia, together with Bolivian archeologists for some 15 years.

During surveys on the island of Pariti in the lake this summer, the team of archeologists found a Tiwanaku burial site containing more than 300 kilograms (660 pounds) of ceramic artifacts, which have been dated to between 850 and 1050 AD.

"The ceramics also tell a lot about their costumes and jewelry, which we knew little about before since the textiles from this period have almost all disappeared," Paerssinen noted.

 

[KeyserXSoze]

Update

http://www.helsinki.fi/research/news/2004/week44.htm

Week 44 / 2004: Top finds on Bolivian highlands
Finnish scientists discovered the most significant relics of antiquity in recent Bolivian history.

In the excavations on Pariti Island in Lake Titicaca, in the highlands of Bolivia, the historical-archaeological research team of the University of Helsinki discovered a ritual offering site with well-preserved pieces of ceramics. The find adds substantially to what is known about the Tiwanaku culture, which flourished before the Incas and for which the island was probably an important religious site.

“The dig contained approximately 300 kilograms of deliberately broken ritual ceramics, which, according to radiocarbon dating, have been buried sometime between 900–1050 AD,” says Antti Korpisaari, an archaeologist from Renvall Institute. “Some twenty vessels have been preserved intact. The objects can be compared to the best china of a royal household or sacramental communion vessels.”

Many types and ornamental elements of vessels discovered on Pariti were completely new to scientists. People are depicted very realistically on the objects, providing a rare insight into the life of the Tiwanaku elite.

“By comparing small details, such as clothing, headgear, jewellery and even facial characteristics, to other finds from the highland area, we can actually start drawing conclusions about the ethnic identities of the people who lived there at the time. The discovery also provides new information on the relationship between the Inca and Tiwanaku cultures,” Korpisaari says.

The historical-archaeological project Formations and Transformations of Ethnic Identities in the South Central Andes, AD 700–1825 also included an extensive general survey of the Bolivian highlands during the fieldwork season of 2004. This, for example, led to the discovery of the location of ancient Paria, the lost Southern centre of the Inca state.

 

[KeyserXSoze]

More...

http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/headlines/news/article_04_11_10_en.html

ARCHAEOLOGY, SCIENCE
Finns uncover major Bolivian relics
Scientists from Helsinki University have discovered what are being considered as the most significant relics of Bolivian antiquity in the South American country’s long history. This announcement was made via the university’s well-developed communication services, which include news of the week on science and research topics and knowledge databases.

In their excavations of a site on Pariti Island in Bolivia, a team of archaeologists from Helsinki University (HU) discovered well-preserved ceramic remnants in what appears to be a ritual site. The find adds substantially to what is known about the Tiwanaku culture, which flourished before the Incas and for which the island was probably an important religious site.

Little is known about the Tiwanakus because they left no writings and their culture died out in the 11th century. Records show they settled on the Bolivian side of Lake Titicaca in the Andean mountains around 400 BC. They built their administrative centre – the city of Tiwanaku which is around 75km west of Bolivia’s capital La Paz – between 300-500 AD, and their influence on the region continued to grow for several centuries.

Surveys of the island, which took place over the summer, uncovered a cache of about 300 kilograms of deliberately broken ritual ceramics which, radiocarbon dating reveals, were buried some time between 900-1050 AD. “Some twenty vessels have been preserved intact,” says Antti Korpisaari, an archaeologist at HU’s Renvall Institute who participated in the dig. “The objects can be compared with the best china of a royal household or sacramental communion vessels,” he notes.

Bases of knowledge
Many fragments and ornamental elements of vessels discovered on Pariti were completely new to scientists. Representations of the people on the objects are very realistic, the scientists explain, providing a rare glimpse of how Tiwanaku’s elite may have lived. Comparing small details, such as the clothing they wore, their jewellery and even facial characteristics, with other finds from the highland area, the Finns are building a picture of the ethnic identity of these ancient people.

Together with Bolivian archaeologists, the Finnish university has carried out excavations in the area around Lake Titicaca – the second largest in South America and the highest navigable by large vessels – for some 15 years. “The discovery demonstrates that the Tiwanakus made the highest quality ceramics in the Andean region, with very naturalistic portraits,” professor Martti Paerssinen, the leader of the dig, is quoted as saying.

The discovery provides new information on the relationship between the Incan and Tiwanaku cultures, adds Korpisaari. The project also included an extensive general survey of the Bolivian highlands during the fieldwork season of 2004. This led to the discovery, among other things, of the location of ancient Paria, the lost southern centre of the Incan state.

Much of the detail provided in this article came from press material produced by Helsinki University itself. Through its weekly science and research news, readers can follow the progress of this dig and other activities at HU. The site also provides links to several ‘knowledge databases’ through which visitors can get a picture of research projects and activities, publications, patents and expertise at the university. According to the site, the databases are used by the Ministry of Education and for compiling statistics and university annual reports.

 

[ramonmercado]

Bolivia rejects pyramid criticism
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8317483.stm

Unesco gave Tiwanaku world heritage status in 2000
Bolivia's culture minister has denied that restoration work on an ancient pyramid might see it lose its Unesco World Heritage Site designation.

Pablo Groux told the BBC the government had halted the work at the Akapana pyramid in Tiwanaku earlier this year, after it was told to do so by Unesco.

Local archaeologists used a clay-based plaster, adobe, instead of stone on the structure, sparking worldwide outrage.

Some experts said they were concerned the work could even cause its collapse.

The Akapana pyramid is one of the biggest and oldest pre-Hispanic constructions in South America.

It had great spiritual significance for the Tiwanaku civilisation, which predated the Inca empire.

Archaeologists believe it was built about 2,500 years ago.


They decided to go free-hand with the [new] design... There are no studies showing that the walls really looked like this

Jose Luis Paz
Jose Luis Paz, who was appointed in June to assess damage to the site, said the Bolivian state National Archaeology Union (Unar) had made a serious error in choosing to rebuild the pyramid using adobe when it was clearly built of stone.

"They decided to go free-hand with the [new] design... There are no studies showing that the walls really looked like this," he told the Reuters news agency.

Mr Paz said the local authorities in Tiwanaku had simply asked Unar to make the pyramid "more attractive for tourists".

He also warned that the lower decks of the pyramid were now slightly tilted because of the extra weight of the adobe walls, which could lead to its eventual collapse.

But Mr Groux defended Unar, saying that as a result of the restoration work, the structure now looked like it had done originally.

The minister also said Unesco was unlikely to drop Tiwanaku from its world heritage list because it had not been excessively altered.

 

[Jim]

Mush debate has gone on about the age of the great pre-Inca city of Tiahuanaco, in Bolivia.

This article claims Tiahuanaco is 14,000 years old

http://www.viewzone.com/tiax.html

An interesting find at Tiahuanaco

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news...underground-pyramid-tiahuanaco-bolivia-020278

Here archeologist claim Tiahuanaco emerged suddenly around 300 AD

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/09/ancient-lost-civilizations-tiahuanaco/

A nice 12 minute showing of the city and artifacts (no dialog)

 

[Ermintruder]

More recent Brien Foerster video, this time at Tiwanaku, Bolivia, where he postulates that (in his opinion) it may may have been some kind of metallurgical industrial complex 12,000 yrs ago. Interesting ideas, to chew over, and consider.

But not as interesting as the footage itself. Again, stunning accurate sliced stone, vast chunks of perfect form. Including, most intriguingly, an unfinished example H-block internal detail.

His engineer's comments about the sub-acute cut angles is very interesting as well...

I try to draw conclusions from the facts as stated, that overall dimensions of superficially-identical pieces show significant variations....but I'm unclear as to what this clue tells us.

Remember...concentrate on the depicted content, not the selfie videos. And some of what he says:

 

[EnolaGaia]

This 2013 Live Science piece updates some of the work and discoveries at the Tiwanaku site(s).

Tiwanaku: Pre-Incan Civilization in the Andes
Located in Bolivia, near Lake Titicaca, the ancient city of Tiwanaku was built almost 13,000 feet (4,000 meters) above sea level, making it one of the highest urban centers ever constructed.

Surrounded, in large part, by mountains and hills, the city reached its peak between roughly A.D. 500 and A.D. 1000, growing to encompass an area of more than two square miles (six square kilometers), organized in a grid plan. Only a small portion of the city has been excavated. Population estimates vary but at its peak Tiwanaku appears to have had at least 10,000 people living in it.

Although its inhabitants didn’t develop a writing system, and its ancient name is unknown, archaeological remains indicate that the city’s cultural and political influence was felt across the southern Andes stretching into modern-day Peru, Chile and Argentina. ...

SOURCE: https://www.livescience.com/26792-tiwanaku.html

 

[EnolaGaia]

The original form and layout of Tiwanaku's Pumapunku complex has been obscured by looting and deconstruction. It has now been recreated in a 3D model.

Alien Architects Didn't Build This Pre-Incan Complex, 3D Models Show
A sprawling pre-Incan stone structure in western Bolivia was once so impressive that its magnificence was described as "inconceivable" by Spanish conquistadors in 1549. Since then, centuries of looting reduced the formerly breathtaking building to scattered ruins, but scientists recently restored the enormous structure to its former splendor — as a 3D model. ...

FULL STORY: https://www.livescience.com/64377-virtual-pre-incan-stone-structure.html

 

[pandacracker]

This is Bolivia not Peru but I didn't know where to put it.

Anyway, it's concrete evidence.

 

[Xanatic*]

I was at Tiwanaku last year. While the H-blocks were impressive, I did not get an impression of concrete.