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Top Hat Man

Interesting thread that this has become. Given that my brother was about 5 and that until a year ago I didn’t know if the existence of the hat man as a phenomena, it makes me wonder how, if it is true, the hat man is an archetype or common sighting. What I mean to say is how could the mind of a 5 year old create a being who it turns out lots of people see and have seen for years? Unless he is real.
with regard the hat and the cloak, my brother described it as a long black cloak and he also described him holding a silver cane. It is entirely possible that he saw an image on tv as has been suggested here, and projected his anxiety onto that image. To my brother however this was a real being that would open the door, lift his blanket and tuck him in. He could see him and hear him. But then he could have been having a sleep paralysis or a sleepwalk. We will never know but for one little boy for a few months it was his reality. Thanks for everyone for discussing this seriously and offering different opinions. I’ve always respected the Fortean times as an inquisitive, research based periodical and this has been backed up on here where I have felt welcome and taken seriously. I would be confident to post other experiences.
 
This topic was ringing bells somewhere in the grey matter for me and it's just come to me and made my blood run cold.

My mother, now aged 59, told me some years ago about a recurring dream she had throughout her teens where a man dressed in black with a wide brimmed hat (she described it as like Zorro) would stand outside the kitchen of her Nan's house and stare in the window at her, grinning in a menacing way. She had this dream many times up until the birth of my older sister where I remember her saying she plucked up the courage to shut the curtains on him and it stopped from that point.

I'm going to have a chat with her tomorrow to see if I can gleam any further information.

As an aside, as a young kid, before I even knew about ghosts and the like, I always hated that house. I had a permanent uneasy feeling constantly, to point I had to be accompanied to the toilet at all times!

Is it just me, or is the idea of this man grinning more scary than if he was just staring, or glaring at someone?

Just... anything paranormal that grins... freaks me the heck out.
 
Interesting thread that this has become. Given that my brother was about 5 and that until a year ago I didn’t know if the existence of the hat man as a phenomena, it makes me wonder how, if it is true, the hat man is an archetype or common sighting. What I mean to say is how could the mind of a 5 year old create a being who it turns out lots of people see and have seen for years? Unless he is real.
with regard the hat and the cloak, my brother described it as a long black cloak and he also described him holding a silver cane. It is entirely possible that he saw an image on tv as has been suggested here, and projected his anxiety onto that image. To my brother however this was a real being that would open the door, lift his blanket and tuck him in. He could see him and hear him. But then he could have been having a sleep paralysis or a sleepwalk. We will never know but for one little boy for a few months it was his reality. Thanks for everyone for discussing this seriously and offering different opinions. I’ve always respected the Fortean times as an inquisitive, research based periodical and this has been backed up on here where I have felt welcome and taken seriously. I would be confident to post other experiences.
Thanks so much for starting this thread, which has managed to give me the willies. (And so sorry about the loss of your brother!)

I don't know too much detail about Carl Jung. Does anyone know if he suggested that archetypes could evolve over time (centuries, decades), or did he consider them to be hard-wired and unchangeable, so to speak, from early human development?
 
... I don't know too much detail about Carl Jung. Does anyone know if he suggested that archetypes could evolve over time (centuries, decades), or did he consider them to be hard-wired and unchangeable, so to speak, from early human development?

The subject is both "fuzzy" and "complicated." I'm no Jung expert, but I have studied his work and his concepts relating to archetypes. Here's what I'd say based on my understanding ...

Archetypes are primordial, universal and shared among us humans as essential and very general patterns or forms.. As such they're "hard wired" in the sense they underlie our basic psychic / mental / experiential structures and operations. The archetypes per se are manifest in human experience via symbolic, figural, or performed manifestations that reflect the patterns or forms of the underlying archetypes. One might say these manifestations (I think Jung called them "archetypal images") are to the archetypes as the shadows cast in Plato's Cave are to the forms casting them. The archetypes themselves are therefore known only indirectly.

Based on this, and circling back to your question, I'd say ... The archetypes themselves don't evolve (at least not so as to be noticeably changing), but their manifestations can be varied and diverse. The specifics of the manifestations or the preponderance of the manifestations in a given context might conceivably vary over time, and thus I'd say it's the projections of the archetypes rather than the archetypes themselves that evolve.
 
If most ghosts are hipsters, why aren't they sporting big fluffy beards, wearing plaid shirts and drinking a microbrewery IPA?
Shucks, maybe in 50 years or so they will . . .

Assuming the scary Hatman is a child's projection of anxiety, I wonder what the 17th or 18th century version of a Hatman was. I suppose some kind of demon. But what if you grew up in an 18th century Enlightenment household where demons were pooh-poohed? Would the Hatman have worn a tricorn? Or a gigantic wig? Could ETA Hoffman's Sandman be the Hatman of the early 19th century? And what about in other cultures outside Europe?
Flannel man is a thing - plaid shirt and all.
 
I'd forgotten all about flannel man! Thanks for reminding me! :)
 
I just spoke to my sister to get some more info on my nephews visitor.

It started when he was under 2 years old. His language was late in developing but he used basic sign language and could communicate that a man in black would visit her every night. He would wake up screaming and then sign that a man in black had come into his room.

When he could communicate better he described a man dressed all in black (sometimes including a long black coat) and a black hat. My sister is unsure what sort of hat it was. The man would blow raspberries on his stomach and on one occassion the man lifted him out of bed and placed him standing in the middle of his bedroom. He then woke up and went running into his mother's room.

The visits continued for years until my mother bought a crucifix for him as protection. It was placed on the wall above his bed, however my sister didn't draw attention to it and didn't tell my nephew what it was there for. The nightly visits stopped almost immediately but continued as visitations in his dreams. The man in black would now kill him or a loved one instead of blowing raspberries. He would sometimes turn up in happy dreams turning them into nightmares.

My nephew is now 9 years old and the dreams still happen (although they have tapered off in the past few months). He now describes the first few years as dreams as well because, as he said, "It can't be real". Yet at the time he was adamant that the man was real.
 
This topic was ringing bells somewhere in the grey matter for me and it's just come to me and made my blood run cold.

My mother, now aged 59, told me some years ago about a recurring dream she had throughout her teens where a man dressed in black with a wide brimmed hat (she described it as like Zorro) would stand outside the kitchen of her Nan's house and stare in the window at her, grinning in a menacing way. She had this dream many times up until the birth of my older sister where I remember her saying she plucked up the courage to shut the curtains on him and it stopped from that point.

I'm going to have a chat with her tomorrow to see if I can gleam any further information.

As an aside, as a young kid, before I even knew about ghosts and the like, I always hated that house. I had a permanent, uneasy feeling, constantly, to the point I had to be accompanied to the toilet at all times!

I've spoken to my Mum to try and get some more info on this.

She stated it began when she was around 11 and ended at around 18 (when she fell pregnant with my older sister).

She stated he actually changed his appearance slightly over time. He always had the black cloak and black hat, but his face was skeletal to begin with and gradually morphed into a tanned skinned face with high cheekbones.

The dreams themselves started out with him going to grab her at the top of her stairs with her jumping to the bottom to avoid his grasp. This then morphed into the kitchen scenario.

Finally she stated in the last few dreams she had of him, he began calling her name, which he never done previous.

I wouldn't have given this a second thought unless it bore a striking resemblance to this seemingly common visitor! (He can bloody well keep away from me!).
 
Come to think of it, I don't recall any reports of ghosts, shadow figures, etc., wearing the sort of headwear (ball caps; beanies) that's become most common nowadays.
That's a good point. A great point in fact. Surely there MUST be some reports out there, however they (if they do exist) are certainly in the minority. Why is this so? Why do these Hatmen have the look that they do? When you think about it, it becomes even more bizarre.

A ghost in a NY Yankees hat or whatever would be mistaken for just a living person. You might've seen one and not given them a second look. Even if they turned up in your house at night, you'd just think 'burglar' unless they did something particularly ghostly, like walk through a wall.

A guy in a top hat and cape will always turn heads, ghost or not.

Bit of a tangent, but I sometimes wonder if more strange phenomena than we realise could be hiding in plain sight; see a dog-headed man or a flying saucer and you'll rush here to post about it, but how would you know if that man you passed walking his dog on your way home, or the Ford Transit that drove past you was a ghost, or slipped into our time from three weeks ago? Maybe the 'weird' stuff people see is just the tip of the iceberg and all sorts of ordinary looking things are popping into our dimension left, right and centre without anyone questioning it.
 
I can see contemporary appearance being a factor in ignoring possibly paranormal phenomena.

If you flip the proposition to consider non-contemporary appearances it helps to explain some anomalies ...

It's relative appearance (in terms of presumed time period) that defines two of the common categories of Fortean experiences. If you see someone in archaic dress, it's a "ghost." If you see someone in dress that's futuristic (or too modern for an old image), it's a "time traveler."
 
I was looking for something else on here, and stumbled across this post made in 2004 - yet another first-hand reference to seeing a scary figure wearing a top hat:

Aparrently as a youngster I used to scare the life out of my mother because I didn't like 'the man stood behind the door' in my bedroom. I have no recollection of this man but at the time I described him as wearing a 'big hat and cape' I guess I meant a top hat and cloak.
The house I was in at the time was a mid-terrace circa 1880's that was probably built for mill workers (in Oldham near Manchester) so at the time of this apparition it would have about 95 years of history behind it.
 
In terms of content, a lot of these accounts remind me of black dog visitations; these are often in houses at night time as well as on lonely roads. And they grin sometimes! My own (non) siting puts me in mind of the way that Shucks sometimes terrify travellers, but sometimes protect them too.

As for the hat - perhaps it's a uniform? Haven't you ever noticed the way so so many entities dress similarly? Plaid shirt, top hat, grey jumpsuit, monk's cowl...
 
We have had a story about a hat man earlier, where the coat was identifiable enough to find out it was first produced in the middle of the 19th century. I think it was in IHTM.
 
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In terms of content, a lot of these accounts remind me of black dog visitations; these are often in houses at night time as well as on lonely roads. And they grin sometimes! My own (non) siting puts me in mind of the way that Shucks sometimes terrify travellers, but sometimes protect them too.

As for the hat - perhaps it's a uniform? Haven't you ever noticed the way so so many entities dress similarly? Plaid shirt, top hat, grey jumpsuit, monk's cowl...

On a lighter note, there must be a limited range of apparel stores in the afterlife.
On a serious note, why top hats and fedoras? Why not bowlers or Panamas? I just find the entire scenario so puzzling for so many reasons.
 
On a lighter note, there must be a limited range of apparel stores in the afterlife.
On a serious note, why top hats and fedoras? Why not bowlers or Panamas? I just find the entire scenario so puzzling for so many reasons.

I have a sneaking feeling that it has something to do with the sheer unnaturalness of the shape. Bowlers and the like tend to somewhat reflect the basic contours of the head. Brims tend to accentuate the face - even those ridiculous Ascot style creations, and the bizarre nuns and nurses headgear you see in history books tend to focus attention on facial features.

To my mind top hats are even more unnatural looking than the inorganic and fabricated shapes of motor cycle helmets and deep sea divers gear, because they seem to have absolutely no relevance - abstract or otherwise - to the shape of the human body underneath them.

I think they also have a tendency to give the appearance of drawing the body lengthways in a distinctly unnatural manner. One of their purposes was to give the wearer a more imposing appearance, and make them seem taller, but I wonder if sometimes - rather than making the body look more substantial - the effect was to stretch it unnaturally, maybe creating in some minds a kind of proto-slenderman.
 
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I've mentioned some years back in another topic (probably ghosts) that my Brother and sister-in-law both independently saw a man in a BOWLER hat at the top of their stairs, not mentioning it to the other in case it frightened them or their little daughter. It was an ex-council house that no one had ever died in and had been built about 15 years previously on farmland - So the figure wasn't a "departed spirit"
They went through a sad time soon afterwards
It's only recently I've heard of the Hat Man phenomenon but I think he must also have the odd Bowler Hat in his wardrobe!

On a lighter note, there must be a limited range of apparel stores in the afterlife.
On a serious note, why top hats and fedoras? Why not bowlers or Panamas? I just find the entire scenario so puzzling for so many reasons.
 
I've mentioned some years back in another topic (probably ghosts) that my Brother and sister-in-law both independently saw a man in a BOWLER hat at the top of their stairs...

Bowler hats were very common, non-class specific, and much more practical than the ridiculous topper - it's a wonder we don't see more of them.
 
I can't help but wonder about the canonical appearance of a "hat man" and the depictions of a canonical villain from the 19th century onward. Whether rendered in animation or live action, the archetypal villain follows a dress code involving dark / black color, a coat / cloak / cape, and a hat.

In popular media - most especially the cartoons produced as children's fare - this trope was made dominant so as to recognize the "bad guy" at face value.

The earliest version in American pop culture might well be Simon Legree (Uncle Tom's Cabin), whose name became a synonym for a cruel villain. By the time early 20th century cartoons had stereotyped Legree and / or his obvious derivatives, the long coat and broad-brimmed hat were standard garb.

Legree-1.jpg
Legree-2.jpg


The broad-brimmed hat would be the usual headwear for a possessed fiend or the evil authority figure.

Fiend.jpg
JudgeDoom.jpg


Meanwhile, the more urbane version would wear a top hat ...

snidelywhiplash.jpg


Is it any wonder that a child's description of an anonymous sinister figure would incorporate these canonical elements?
 
I mean...I have another story that might be relevant but it's a tag long. If people don't think it is, mods can chuck it somewhere else.
I've been on these boards for nearly 20 years, in various shapes, so I might well have told this one before. I'm reminded of it now as my family immediately made the connection with my mum's odd incident.

When I was about 14 or 15, I would often walk over to a friend's house, about two miles away. We lived in a built up area (still near the estate where Gran lived), but at night, the main street was largely deserted. Lots of brightly lit neon and shop displays, which only went to disguise how empty the place was after dark. Now, it's all bars and takeaways, but back then (probably about 1987/8), it was silent, with very little traffic for such a main road (A61 leading into Sheffield).

So, walking to my friend's place, I'm in a rather hyper-vigilant mode. It wasn't the toughest neighbourhood, but it had problems and a fair few issues around violent crime, hence I keep my wits about me. And to my dismay, I see two local...ahem..."characters" coming the opposite way. These two are the classic little angry bloke/big tough bloke combo. They're the same age as me, but given that I'm a queer, disabled geek without much money, we were not predisposed to get on. There's no way out of this; crossing the road admits fear and will inevitably lead to a confrontation. I'm just going to have to try and face it down. I know that the very least I'm going to get is a load of verbal abuse.

Except, when we meet up, they just stare at me oddly. The little one is silent for once. The big fella just looks nervous and says "Alreight? as we do up here. And they go on their way. And I sweatily continue onwards, with frequent glances over my shoulder.

Next day at school, I see the big one. He tells me that the little one wanted to start something but they didn't, for reasons that become obvious when he asks "Was that your dad?"

"Who?"

"That bloke you were walking with. Him in the big black hat. Reminded me of Freddie Krueger."

Remember how I said I kept looking around? I'm absolutely certain I was alone. The streets were empty apart from the three of us. And when I told my parents, they immediately reminded me about the Man in the Hat on the stairs. So I'm quite fond of him myself.

It's going to take me awhile to get passed this one. I never had anything like this happen to me although I did have an acquaintance relay something very similar and I've never been able to forget it. :nails:
 
Is it any wonder that a child's description of an anonymous sinister figure would incorporate these canonical elements?
Which in turn makes me wonder what, if anything, children who grew up in other cultures are seeing hiding behind their bedroom doors etc. Is it an entity which children project their own tropes onto, or has it/they somehow absorbed the trope only to project it outwards?
 
Vague memory - didn't the first man to wear a top hat in public cause a riot because of it? Or was that the first man to use an umbrella?
 
Vague memory - didn't the first man to wear a top hat in public cause a riot because of it? Or was that the first man to use an umbrella?

From the British newspaper Archive - published in 1899, supposedly recounting a story originating in 1797. See here.

'Calculated to frighten timid people'. Well, appears that they most definitely nailed that aspect right from the start.

I'm pretty sure it's not a serious piece, but it does show that our suspicion of the top hat and its wearers is nothing new.
 
Yeah, the original top hat reaction may be an urban myth, but there must be a reason it was associated with villainous fictional characters. Mind you, Fred Astaire wears "Top Hat, White Tie and Tails" in the film Top Hat, and he's a goodie in that.
 
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