Triangular UFO Sightings

Mythopoeika

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If that patent went through the patent office without objection it makes you wonder what criteria they use to assess applications. On the other hand maybe the apparent idiocy is a way of deflecting attention away from the genuine (maybe) black triangle rationale. The fact that he was able to use his Navy credentials, and their backing for this application, suggests that it could be a bit of clever disinformation. Be interesting to get the views of a serious field propulsion expert.
The big problem with US patents is that there seems to be no requirement to prove that an invention actually works, or that the technology exists at all. It's good enough for them that you're patenting a concept and then paying them a wad of cash.
 

eburacum

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That's right; a patent made in 2004, many years after triangular UFO sightings were first reported, and the (faked) 1990 photos from Belgium.
 
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Carl Grove

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That's right; a patent made in 2004, many years after triangular UFO sightings were first reported, and the (faked) 1990 photos from Belgium.
What are you saying? That the US Navy would want to patent a device copied from UFO sightings? Why, and how would they do it? Patenting a terrestrially made device, that was by 2004 tried and tested, would make more sense.
 

eburacum

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This was not patented by the US Navy, but by one man. The US Navy have never tested such a device, and if they did, it wouldn't work.
 

eburacum

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Neither have the US Navy made toast disappear, except by conventional methods. But disappearing toast is described in St Clair's other patent.
 

Carl Grove

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This was not patented by the US Navy, but by one man. The US Navy have never tested such a device, and if they did, it wouldn't work.
I may be missing something, but if this patent has been put into the public domain with the alleged Navy connection, and there is no actual connection, then surely by now the Navy would have issued a denial and a condemnation of St Clair, maybe even have taken legal action against him.
 

RaM

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They probably just let it roll keep the buggers guessing.
 

eburacum

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We should also strive to separate the patents submitted by John St Clair and Salvatore Pais.

As far as I can see, St Clair is a private individual who does not have US Navy connections, and withdrew his patents before acceptance.

Pais on the other had is, or has been, an Navy employee, and has had his patents accepted.
Pais contradicts himself in his own patent, as seen below;
In his invention disclosure form for the inertial mass reduction device patent, Pais signed and dated a form reading “As the invention described herein was made as a direct result of the performance of my assigned duties, I hereby agree to assign the entire right, title and interest in the invention to the government and I understand that I will retain no rights in the invention.”

However, underneath Pais wrote that “There is no relationship whatsoever between my assigned duties and the invention. The invention was made independently of any job performance or assigned tasks by the Branch or Section.” He later wrote in the same disclosure form that “The entire Inventive Concept (Invention) and anything that pertains to it, was the inventor’s own work, with no government contribution whatsoever.”
So which was it?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ignificant-internal-review-resulted-in-a-demo
 

EnolaGaia

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Note that John St Clair filed that patent in 2004. There is still no evidence that the technology is, or ever will be, viable. ...

More to the point - St. Clair abandoned the patent application in 2006 (read the record). No patent was granted.
 

Carl Grove

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Now we are getting into disinformation territory. A small subset of US Navy personnel seem to be enthusiasts for UFO reality, and are actively supporting these fringe science subjects. Eric Davies, Hal Puthoff and the 'Invisible College' members are all involved in this process, as noted in this article by Jason Colavito.
https://newrepublic.com/article/162457/government-embrace-ufos-bad-science
That has to be one of the most blatantly biassed articles I've ever read!
 

Comfortably Numb

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That's right; a patent made in 2004, many years after triangular UFO sightings were first reported, and the (faked) 1990 photos from Belgium.
Was the Petit-Rechain ever exposed as a fake?

See my post #91.

I clearly didn't think so at that time, however, this really needs to be definitely clarified.

What do your sources say,?
 

BeardSprite

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Searching through some archive material, I have come across the following article:

Contact of the Fourth Kind
by Philip J. Imbrogno

Over the past five years the New York, New Jersey and Connecticut area have been the scene of a massive number of UFO sightings. The numbers of reports are so great that I believe this area has the highest number of raw UFO sighting reports in the entir e world. These reports are documented in my book NIGHT SIEGE THE HUDSON VALLEY UFO SIGHTS which I co-authored with the late Dr. J. Allen Hynek and Mr. Bob Pratt.

(...).

Bill (as we shall refer to him) is a thirty two year old computer programmer for a major scientific-engineering corportation that helped design the major components for the new NASA Hubble space telescope.

On July 19th 1984, at about ten-thirty pm, Bill was leaving work and heading west on Highway I-84. As he approached the Taconic Parkway ramp in Dutchess county New York he noticed a very bright almost circular object off to the north.

The object seemed to be just sitting there in the sky and the lights were very bright white. As he watched the object it began to move and it was at that time he noticed a dark mass behind it which blocked out the brighter light polluted night sky. He continued to drive on 84 and soon lost sight of the object. He then brushed the entire incident off his mind and thought "Oh it must have been those guys from Stormville flying those planes faking a UFO". He then drove on listening to his radio.

He then turned off the route 52 exit near Stormville New York and began traveling north. The time now was close to eleven PM and the roads were quite desolate. He came to a clearing where there was a large field and noticed a large dark mass sitting in the field about 200 yards from the road. At first he thought that it was a new home, but then he knew there was no house there since he went this way just last night and the field was empty. As a matter of fact Bill drove this way home and passed the field everynight and never saw a house there.

Bill slowed down the car. "This thing was huge and dark", he said.The strange thing was it was almost the same shape as a big barn, but it seemed more tapered toward the sides and very smooth. As he watched, the dark object rose into the air without a sound. This really upset Bill since he was the only car on the road. The object then rose higher and higher. All that Bill could see was the dark mass slowly rising into the air. It was now about twice as high as the trees and it moved slowly towards Bill who was still in the car.

(...)

Bill then put his car into gear and sped away from the object. His heart was racing as he drove up the road at about fifty miles and hour. Bill then lost sight of the object and continued to drive at a slower rate of speed. After several minutes he noticd a glow up ahead over a hill. As he approached the crest of the hill there the object was! It was about 300 feet above the trees and was all lit up with rows of white and yellow lights. He then stopped his car and turned off the engine and the lights.

He was hoping that whoever was in the thing would not see him. The objectthen turned off its lights and he could see this huge dark mass slolwy drifting toward him. The object passed right over his car, he could now see its shape, it was triangular. Bill told me "I don't want to make light of this, but the ship looked like one of the star destroyers in Star Wars. The underside was the same shape, although I did not see the top".

The object passed over Bill, as he looked up he saw circular areas underneath the UFO. These circular areas seemed to be like tunnels leading into the object. Inside these circular tunnels there was a white flashing,similar to the flashing of a white strobe light...

(...)

Bill told me there was no sound.He estimated its size to be at least 300 feet from end to end.

Then something strange took place. The last thing Bill remembers is watching it go over his car, he did not see it leave. The next thing he knows he is at the bottom of the hill 600 feet from the position he was when the UFO passed over his parked car.

The object itself was gone. He was not sure what time it was when he watched the object passed over his car, but he feels it was most likely about eleven-thirty PM. The time was now twelve-fifteen. He started his drive home upset and with a very stiff neck .

When he arrived home he told his wife about his sighting. She was worried to begin with since he was almost and hour late. That night Bill woke up yelling in the night"saying get away from me!" His wife said that the nightmares continued for a while at least twice a week. Bill told to me that he was not sure of what the nightmare was, but he knew something was after him. As time went on Bill was afraid to drive at night alone. He even had to insist to his boss not to put him on the evening or night shift at his job.

Finally Bill wanted to find out more since the experience of the UFO and the fearful dreams tormented him. It wasen't until 1987 that Bill contacted me and told me his story. Bill had seen Budd Hopkins (author of the book INTRUDERS) on a number of shows and asked me if would be possible for him to be hypnotized.

(....)

The following is a brief transcript of Bills encounter under hypnosis.

(...)

(End of article)

I shall leave that aside, for now.


What became immediately striking was the extraordinary similarly with a case I personally documented, in the late 1990s.

This was my report back then:

As recently mentioned, I have been attempting to document three entirely separate accounts of an encounter with a UFO.

This is the last of the three accounts and by far the most recent and detailed.

Taken at face value, it is also the most difficult to rationally explain.

Details of the encounter originally appeared as a brief posting on alt.paranet.ufo and I followed it up, asking if I could document it in more detail. The witness agreed and there followed considerable correspondence, documenting and clarifying the exact nature of the reported encounter.

Again, I have summarised this account using only the verbatim testimony of the witness and have their confirmation that this summary is an accurate record of events. This witness is a 41 year old lady, currently a student.

[START]
On March 7th, 1995, at around 9.00 p.m., my father, son and I were on our way home, traveling in a westerly direction on Martin Road, a county road between Two Harbors MN and Duluth, in a remote area, north-east of Lake Superior.

Lighting conditions were very dark. The moon was in the last quarter, right before the new moon, so it was a sliver moon. It wasn't snowing in that area at the time, however, the day before there was a huge snow storm, but it had passed and there were only scattered flurries that night.

As we were driving, we saw what appeared to be a huge building or stadium on a high hill. It was the altitude that made it appear to be on a hill, there is no hill in this area.

I remarked about never seeing a building there before. I asked my father at that point what the object was? He didn't respond. My father is a stroke victim and therefore has very limited speech. I could not recall a factory or stadium or anything in the area that might have been the size of what we were seeing.

As we proceeded up the road, the building started moving toward us, at a fast rate.

Finally what we thought was a building was alongside us.

It was some sort of craft. It was huge. It had 4 lights in front, and one larger light underneath.

The craft approached us from the south and was to the west of us. It hovered off to the left and to the west of us so that we could see it quite clearly. I would say it hovered for approximately 60 seconds.

It seemed to be observing us.

My son was asleep in the back seat and didn't wake, even though I was shouting at him to look.

We were almost stopped at this point. It then angled downwards, tilting the front with the 4 lights directly at us. When the craft hovered the back dropped down. It then started moving toward us and toward the ground. When it came at us, we could not see the back of the craft as it was at approximately a 35 degree angle toward the ground, with the headlights pointing at us. We could only see the headlights and front of the craft at that time, the light underneath was not visible at that point.

The front of the craft may itself have been angled slightly, I can't recall for certain. We were also unable to see the top of the craft.

We both thought it might hit us, which it looked like it would have if it hadn't dropped the back end yet again and started hovering in front of us, over the road.

It tilted back and hovered over us.

It was wider in front than in back, creating a wedge shape from front to back. It was like a wedge of cake on it's side, or at least from the angle we could see it.

It may have angled in the centre of the front slightly, I'm not sure, but it gave that impression.

We are talking about a craft that is approximately 330 feet wide, at it's widest point, and approximately 220 feet in length.

The width of the back was much thinner, I can't be certain of the width at the narrowest point.

In height, from the upper edge to the lower edge, the front of the craft was approximately 40 feet. It was comparative with the height of a two a 2 storey house.

It appeared to use the back as a rudder, as when it was hovering it angled the back down and seemed to just sit watching us.

The was no determinable sound from the craft.

The lights in front were approximately 40 ft in diameter.

From left to right, they were spaced approximately as follows:

From left hand front edge to first light - 30 feet

From first light to second light - 20 feet

From second light to third light - 70 feet

From third light to fourth light - 20 feet

From fourth light to right hand front edge - 30 feet

They were not flush with the end of the craft (front edges).

There was a large gap between the front centre lights. I'm not sure what was there as I was more interested in the underside.

The lights were larger than the gaps.

These lights were an off-white color and did not illuminate anything but the craft itself. They glowed, and yet there was no beam.

When the object came at us we should have been illuminated, we were not, neither was any of the surrounding area. The lights did not change color at any time. The only thing that was lit by them was the craft itself.

As we continued to travel east on the road, we passed under the object.

As we were passing under the craft I was looking up at it.

The color became very evident; it was a snow-cloud gray.

The light underneath the craft was the size of all the other lights put together, i.e., approximately 160 feet in diameter. In my estimation, it was the size of a small house. It was centered and there was approx 85 feet of area on either side from the side edges.

Underneath, in the centre of the craft and surrounding this central light, were objects which are difficult to describe. They were angular, square, rectangular, the only way I can describe them is maybe like doors? They did not protrude a lot, but enough to see them.

When I could no longer see the craft, I looked in the rear-view mirror, and it was gone.

I said to my dad that if he and my son hadn't been with me I would have stopped and he said, "turn around, turn around". I told him it was gone.

After we went under the craft, I was just in a state of shock for a while.

My son didn't waken until after we were under it and it was gone.

I then spoke to my dad some. Then I thought I should remember everything I could and checked the time, I estimated that it had been between 10 and 15 minutes since we had passed under the craft. I looked at the clock and it was 9:15 p.m.

We were about 15 or 20 minutes longer getting home than usual. I attribute this to watching the craft and maybe not driving as fast as usual after seeing it. I watched the sky the rest of the way home.

We didn't stop, we kept driving as we still had some distance to go to get home. As mentioned, my father is a stroke victim and therefore has very limited speech. To ask him about the encounter, "yes" and "no" questions would essentially have to be asked. The next day, I asked him, "did we see something weird on the way home last night?" "Yes, Yes", was his reply.

We did discuss some of the experience on the way home, but it is very difficult to communicate with him due to his disability. I am able to understand him through gesture, facial expression etc. He is able to communicate to some extent, but his vocabulary is very limited.

There was another vehicle the night we saw the object, a pickup truck. It turned off on a side road before we passed under it. I believe the truck turned at about the time the object started to hover the first time. The truck turned to the left and that was the end of seeing it, we were more interested in the object.

I had thought maybe we would see something in the paper about it, but nothing was there and if the person in the truck was alone, they may have thought they just imagined it.

I am 41 years old and have never seen anything like this before nor have I heard of anything like it. My father is 70 and he too has never seen anything like it. Both of us felt we were being observed by this craft.

Since seeing this craft it has made thinking of anything else difficult. I know it was there and so does my father.

I have almost become obsessed with this thing. It is making me afraid to drive at night, because I'm constantly watching the sky. I want to see it again. l don't know why.

I have also been having nightmares since seeing it. On Tuesday night after seeing the craft, I dreamed that I was somehow involved in a vivisection. I don't recall the rest of the dreams, but I have had very disturbing dreams that wake me and I can't remember them.

The vivisection dream is the only one I really remember. I assume that is due to the fact that I will be taking a human movement class and have to dissect a human cadaver. I have been taking very intensive anatomy and physiology classes for the past couple of years, as well as other related classes. It was strange to me that I would have this dream after seeing this craft. In the three years of anatomy classes, I've never had bad dreams about it. I usually never recall any dreaming, so the nightmares, or interrupted sleep is new too.

My son is sleeping fine and we haven't noticed any unusual physical effects, such as marks.

I felt that it was not a friendly looking craft. The only curves on it were the lights, everything else was angular.

The encounter for my father was not as traumatic as one might think. He and my mother saw another craft many years ago along with approximately 100 other people. He tells me that this was in North Carolina in the early 50's and people had stopped their cars to watch this craft.

I do wish very much that he were able to talk, as in asking him questions he says he did see the top of the craft, but is unable to articulate what he saw.

When I posted details of my experience to alt.paranet.ufo, I wanted to make the post as soon as possible as I didn't want to forget anything.

I wasn't really looking for anything other than to make a post at that time.

I didn't know what to look for as I didn't really know where to start or what I would be trying to find.

Any previous interest in UFO's has always been just a normal curiosity.

Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd see something like this.
(END)


Not being resident in the U.S., I was unfamiliar whether this reportedly occurred anywhere near the Hudson Valley area - it's in the same timeframe

Just checked and... that would seem to be affirmative?

Could either one of the accounts be fictional and based on the other?

Because if not....

How then to rationalise?

It is my contention that the Hudson Valley 'Triangles' are C5 Galaxy Transport aircraft observed at night by people unfamiliar with the type.

It is the largest military aircraft in operation in the US, has wingtip and centerline/fuselage lights that accentuate/call attention to the 'boomerang' shape of its wing-span, is uniformly painted a dull grey/grey green colour, and seen at a distance can appear much closer than it is. At 274 feet (75.3m) long with 222 foot (67.9m) wingspan it is huge, almost as long as, and half as wide again as, the proverbial 'football field' (American Football, at that).

When turning, or heading directly towards or away from the observer, they can appear to just 'hang' in the sky, again because of its immense size. Also, unless the observer is directly below/behind a C5 under take-off power, they can be surprisingly quiet, and again due to their large size, can appear to be silent and close, when they are really just too far away for the sound to be evident.

There are many, many video's on youtube that show all of these 'features' of the C5, both in daylight and at night. I'll just include a link to the one below, which shows especially well how BIG these things look at a distance, and how they 'hang' in the sky. Also, bonus countermeasures!

You tube link to C5 Galaxy daylight flight over Dover AFB

It's a 10 minute video, but you can see what I mean from 1:00 to 4:00

From 8:30 to 8:45 you can get a look at how the C5's lights might be observed as a triangle at night.

Apologies for exposing anyone who watches to that voice-over/soundtrack combo, though (its an airshhow in the US, you can probably guess how it is).

In the case of the Hudson Valley triangles, right at the northern edge of the 'flap area' is New York Stewart International Airport, just west of Newburgh NY. From 1934 to 1970 the aiport was a military base attached to the nearby West Point Academy (yeah, that West Point, about 18km to the SE, also well within the 'Hudson Valley Flap' area), becoming Stewart Airforce Bace after WWII, then becoming the entirely civilian airport in 1970.

In 1983, however, an Air National Guard Base was opened at the Airport, sharing its facilities, home of the 105th Airlift Wing. From October 1985 the 105th operated a fleet of 12 C5 Galaxy Aircraft.

The most active period of the Hudson Valley UFO Flap is usually quoted as being 1982 through to 1986, mostly pre-dating the stationing of C5's at Stewart ANG Base/International Airport. I suggest that bases don't spring up fully formed on the date of inception, and when you have C5's on hand (in service 1970-present), and the facilities to operate them, you use them to deliver equipment/personnel/other material to their new base.

Now, I don't say that ALL sightings in the Hudson Valley area, or even the Hudson Valley Flap, are down to mis-identified C5 Aircraft, but I certainly do for the 'boomerang' and 'triangle' UFO's. maybe the 'crescent' and 'semi-circle' and 'half-circle' reports, too. Maybe.

I also don't say this accounts for other aspects of the phenomenon - sightings of grounded craft, abduction experiences etc. Those are a whole other barrel/tin/kettle of worms/fish/gray-liens!

I have a couple of questions, too - I've been compiling notes about the Hudson Valley Flap, maybe to start a thread on it -any takers? Also are the Pine Bush UFO Flap and the Hudson Valley Flap essentially the same thing? I can find much more on the latter than the Former, and what I can find on Pine Bush (also very proximate to Stewart Int'l/ANG) mostly overlaps the Hudson Valley stuff - is that the general concensus?

Edit to add:

This post got so long I completely forgot to add that the Duluth/Two Harbours sighting from the quoted post, whilst far outside the Hudson Valley area, sounds exactly like the sort of sighting that might come from seeing a C5 at night. The airbase at Duluth, whilst never seeming to have housed a C5 opperating unit, has a 3km runway more than capable of accomodating one, and a Fighter Wing that will have need of supplies, personnel, and other logistics needs, that could be met by the occassional visit from a C5.


Oh, and here's a picture of a C5 on approach to land at Rammstein AFB.
 

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BS3

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It is my contention that the Hudson Valley 'Triangles' are C5 Galaxy Transport aircraft observed at night by people unfamiliar with the type.

It is the largest military aircraft in operation in the US, has wingtip and centerline/fuselage lights that accentuate/call attention to the 'boomerang' shape of its wing-span, is uniformly painted a dull grey/grey green colour, and seen at a distance can appear much closer than it is. At 274 feet (75.3m) long with 222 foot (67.9m) wingspan it is huge, almost as long as, and half as wide again as, the proverbial 'football field' (American Football, at that).

When turning, or heading directly towards or away from the observer, they can appear to just 'hang' in the sky, again because of its immense size. Also, unless the observer is directly below/behind a C5 under take-off power, they can be surprisingly quiet, and again due to their large size, can appear to be silent and close, when they are really just too far away for the sound to be evident.

There are many, many video's on youtube that show all of these 'features' of the C5, both in daylight and at night. I'll just include a link to the one below, which shows especially well how BIG these things look at a distance, and how they 'hang' in the sky. Also, bonus countermeasures!

You tube link to C5 Galaxy daylight flight over Dover AFB

It's a 10 minute video, but you can see what I mean from 1:00 to 4:00

From 8:30 to 8:45 you can get a look at how the C5's lights might be observed as a triangle at night.

Apologies for exposing anyone who watches to that voice-over/soundtrack combo, though (its an airshhow in the US, you can probably guess how it is).

In the case of the Hudson Valley triangles, right at the northern edge of the 'flap area' is New York Stewart International Airport, just west of Newburgh NY. From 1934 to 1970 the aiport was a military base attached to the nearby West Point Academy (yeah, that West Point, about 18km to the SE, also well within the 'Hudson Valley Flap' area), becoming Stewart Airforce Bace after WWII, then becoming the entirely civilian airport in 1970.

In 1983, however, an Air National Guard Base was opened at the Airport, sharing its facilities, home of the 105th Airlift Wing. From October 1985 the 105th operated a fleet of 12 C5 Galaxy Aircraft.

The most active period of the Hudson Valley UFO Flap is usually quoted as being 1982 through to 1986, mostly pre-dating the stationing of C5's at Stewart ANG Base/International Airport. I suggest that bases don't spring up fully formed on the date of inception, and when you have C5's on hand (in service 1970-present), and the facilities to operate them, you use them to deliver equipment/personnel/other material to their new base.

Now, I don't say that ALL sightings in the Hudson Valley area, or even the Hudson Valley Flap, are down to mis-identified C5 Aircraft, but I certainly do for the 'boomerang' and 'triangle' UFO's. maybe the 'crescent' and 'semi-circle' and 'half-circle' reports, too. Maybe.

I also don't say this accounts for other aspects of the phenomenon - sightings of grounded craft, abduction experiences etc. Those are a whole other barrel/tin/kettle of worms/fish/gray-liens!

I have a couple of questions, too - I've been compiling notes about the Hudson Valley Flap, maybe to start a thread on it -any takers? Also are the Pine Bush UFO Flap and the Hudson Valley Flap essentially the same thing? I can find much more on the latter than the Former, and what I can find on Pine Bush (also very proximate to Stewart Int'l/ANG) mostly overlaps the Hudson Valley stuff - is that the general concensus?

Edit to add:

This post got so long I completely forgot to add that the Duluth/Two Harbours sighting from the quoted post, whilst far outside the Hudson Valley area, sounds exactly like the sort of sighting that might come from seeing a C5 at night. The airbase at Duluth, whilst never seeming to have housed a C5 opperating unit, has a 3km runway more than capable of accomodating one, and a Fighter Wing that will have need of supplies, personnel, and other logistics needs, that could be met by the occassional visit from a C5.


Oh, and here's a picture of a C5 on approach to land at Rammstein AFB.

Pine Bush was a sort of appendix to Hudson Valley; it carried on into the 1990s / early 2000s and as I recall ended up petering out in the usual fuzzy lights in the sky territory. Wasn't Bruce Maccabee involved at one point?
 

Carl Grove

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Location
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It is my contention that the Hudson Valley 'Triangles' are C5 Galaxy Transport aircraft observed at night by people unfamiliar with the type.

It is the largest military aircraft in operation in the US, has wingtip and centerline/fuselage lights that accentuate/call attention to the 'boomerang' shape of its wing-span, is uniformly painted a dull grey/grey green colour, and seen at a distance can appear much closer than it is. At 274 feet (75.3m) long with 222 foot (67.9m) wingspan it is huge, almost as long as, and half as wide again as, the proverbial 'football field' (American Football, at that).

When turning, or heading directly towards or away from the observer, they can appear to just 'hang' in the sky, again because of its immense size. Also, unless the observer is directly below/behind a C5 under take-off power, they can be surprisingly quiet, and again due to their large size, can appear to be silent and close, when they are really just too far away for the sound to be evident.

There are many, many video's on youtube that show all of these 'features' of the C5, both in daylight and at night. I'll just include a link to the one below, which shows especially well how BIG these things look at a distance, and how they 'hang' in the sky. Also, bonus countermeasures!

You tube link to C5 Galaxy daylight flight over Dover AFB

It's a 10 minute video, but you can see what I mean from 1:00 to 4:00

From 8:30 to 8:45 you can get a look at how the C5's lights might be observed as a triangle at night.

Apologies for exposing anyone who watches to that voice-over/soundtrack combo, though (its an airshhow in the US, you can probably guess how it is).

In the case of the Hudson Valley triangles, right at the northern edge of the 'flap area' is New York Stewart International Airport, just west of Newburgh NY. From 1934 to 1970 the aiport was a military base attached to the nearby West Point Academy (yeah, that West Point, about 18km to the SE, also well within the 'Hudson Valley Flap' area), becoming Stewart Airforce Bace after WWII, then becoming the entirely civilian airport in 1970.

In 1983, however, an Air National Guard Base was opened at the Airport, sharing its facilities, home of the 105th Airlift Wing. From October 1985 the 105th operated a fleet of 12 C5 Galaxy Aircraft.

The most active period of the Hudson Valley UFO Flap is usually quoted as being 1982 through to 1986, mostly pre-dating the stationing of C5's at Stewart ANG Base/International Airport. I suggest that bases don't spring up fully formed on the date of inception, and when you have C5's on hand (in service 1970-present), and the facilities to operate them, you use them to deliver equipment/personnel/other material to their new base.

Now, I don't say that ALL sightings in the Hudson Valley area, or even the Hudson Valley Flap, are down to mis-identified C5 Aircraft, but I certainly do for the 'boomerang' and 'triangle' UFO's. maybe the 'crescent' and 'semi-circle' and 'half-circle' reports, too. Maybe.

I also don't say this accounts for other aspects of the phenomenon - sightings of grounded craft, abduction experiences etc. Those are a whole other barrel/tin/kettle of worms/fish/gray-liens!

I have a couple of questions, too - I've been compiling notes about the Hudson Valley Flap, maybe to start a thread on it -any takers? Also are the Pine Bush UFO Flap and the Hudson Valley Flap essentially the same thing? I can find much more on the latter than the Former, and what I can find on Pine Bush (also very proximate to Stewart Int'l/ANG) mostly overlaps the Hudson Valley stuff - is that the general concensus?

Edit to add:

This post got so long I completely forgot to add that the Duluth/Two Harbours sighting from the quoted post, whilst far outside the Hudson Valley area, sounds exactly like the sort of sighting that might come from seeing a C5 at night. The airbase at Duluth, whilst never seeming to have housed a C5 opperating unit, has a 3km runway more than capable of accomodating one, and a Fighter Wing that will have need of supplies, personnel, and other logistics needs, that could be met by the occassional visit from a C5.


Oh, and here's a picture of a C5 on approach to land at Rammstein AFB.
Watching the video I really can't see much to connect these huge aircraft with the black triangle sightings. They might indeed account for a few odd cases in the Hudson Valley area but there are many cases where the objects have been in view for lengthy spells, in static positions, with a configuration totally at odds with the Galaxy or any other conventional aircraft.
 

BeardSprite

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Pine Bush was a sort of appendix to Hudson Valley; it carried on into the 1990s / early 2000s and as I recall ended up petering out in the usual fuzzy lights in the sky territory. Wasn't Bruce Maccabee involved at one point?

Ah, okay, that makes sense.

I don't know about Bruce Maccabee being involved, I must confess to being woefully under read on hudson Valley/Pine Bush. I stopped buying UFO literature a long time ago (more than 20 years), finding such books fell into one of three categories - Excessively credulous and un-critical (ie lacking or even bereft of critical thought), dry and indigestible (I had, many, many years ago, several books on the subject of Project Blue Book, they all fell into this category) or a lazy re-hash over several other sources done for a quick buck - the sort of book that adds inconsistensies and and conflates unrelated things because the material wasn't looked into properly.

I should probably, at the very least, check out Hynek's 'Night Siege' at some point soon if I'm to carry on with this.

Watching the video I really can't see much to connect these huge aircraft with the black triangle sightings. They might indeed account for a few odd cases in the Hudson Valley area but there are many cases where the objects have been in view for lengthy spells, in static positions, with a configuration totally at odds with the Galaxy or any other conventional aircraft.

Well, you wouldn't - I didn't present that particular video as a 'ha! Gotcha! Flying triangles solved!', but to back up my claims that the C5 is HUGE, looks closer than it really is at a distance, is quiet at a distance (even with all the sound-track nonsense going on) appears to 'hang' in the sky at certain angles, and has lights that can form a boomerang/triangle shape when the rest of the aeroplane is shrouded in darkness.

Agreed, it's not great for that last point, being in daylight the whole time.

Also because "SWEET!" - countermeasures!

I could easily spam this thread with dozens of links trying to prove my point, but I figured that would be both annoying and counter productive.

There are lots and lots of C5 video's on youtube, many at night - put 'C5 Galaxy at night' into the youtube search bar, you'll see what I mean.

You might even see a few that soften your position. Slightly. Maybe. But no hard feelings if you don't :cool2:
 
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Carl Grove

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Ah, okay, that makes sense.

I don't know about Bruce Maccabee being involved, I must confess to being woefully under read on hudson Valley/Pine Bush. I stopped buying UFO literature a long time ago (more than 20 years), finding such books fell into one of three categories - Excessively credulous and un-critical (ie lacking or even bereft of critical thought), dry and indigestible (I had, many, many years ago, several books on the subject of Project Blue Book, they all fell into this category) or a lazy re-hash over several other sources done for a quick buck - the sort of book that adds inconsistensies and and conflates unrelated things because the material wasn't looked into properly.

I should probably, at the very least, check out Hynek's 'Night Siege' at some point soon if I'm to carry on with this.



Well, you wouldn't - I didn't present that particular video as a 'ha! Gotcha! Flying triangles solved!', but to back up my claims that the C5 is HUGE, looks closer than it really is at a distance, is quiet at a distance (even with all the sound-track nonsense going on) appears to 'hang' in the sky at certain angles, and has lights that can form a boomerang/triangle shape when the rest of the aeroplane is shrouded in darkness.

Agreed, it's not great for that last point, being in daylight the whole time.

Also because "SWEET!" - coutermeasures!

I could easily spam this thread with dozens of links trying to prove my point, but I figured that would be both annoying and counter productive.

There are lots and lots of C5 video's on youtube, many at night - put 'C5 Galaxy at night' into the youtube search bar, you'll see what I mean.

You might even see a few that soften your position. Slightly. Maybe. But no hard feelings if you don't :cool2:
I'm thinking of the many cases where black triangles flying slowly and silently directly above the witnesses, cutting out the light from nearby stars, do exhibit one large central light and others less powerful. Often the witnesses have been local policemen. Usually these are seen on flight paths connecting certain USAF bases, which led the NIDS investigators to view them as likely black project craft.
 

BS3

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Ah, okay, that makes sense.

I don't know about Bruce Maccabee being involved, I must confess to being woefully under read on hudson Valley/Pine Bush. I stopped buying UFO literature a long time ago (more than 20 years), finding such books fell into one of three categories - Excessively credulous and un-critical (ie lacking or even bereft of critical thought), dry and indigestible (I had, many, many years ago, several books on the subject of Project Blue Book, they all fell into this category) or a lazy re-hash over several other sources done for a quick buck - the sort of book that adds inconsistensies and and conflates unrelated things because the material wasn't looked into properly.

I should probably, at the very least, check out Hynek's 'Night Siege' at some point soon if I'm to carry on with this.



Well, you wouldn't - I didn't present that particular video as a 'ha! Gotcha! Flying triangles solved!', but to back up my claims that the C5 is HUGE, looks closer than it really is at a distance, is quiet at a distance (even with all the sound-track nonsense going on) appears to 'hang' in the sky at certain angles, and has lights that can form a boomerang/triangle shape when the rest of the aeroplane is shrouded in darkness.

Agreed, it's not great for that last point, being in daylight the whole time.

Also because "SWEET!" - countermeasures!

I could easily spam this thread with dozens of links trying to prove my point, but I figured that would be both annoying and counter productive.

There are lots and lots of C5 video's on youtube, many at night - put 'C5 Galaxy at night' into the youtube search bar, you'll see what I mean.

You might even see a few that soften your position. Slightly. Maybe. But no hard feelings if you don't :cool2:

Apologies, looking through online info I see that it was a different Bruce, a geologist called Bruce Cornet. The following seems a useful summary of the history:

https://hvmag.com/life-style/they-came-from-pine-bush/

Looks like things went quieter after one of the central figures died and also after access was blocked to the main 'skywatch' site.
 

BeardSprite

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I'm thinking of the many cases where black triangles flying slowly and silently directly above the witnesses, cutting out the light from nearby stars, do exhibit one large central light and others less powerful. Often the witnesses have been local policemen. Usually these are seen on flight paths connecting certain USAF bases, which led the NIDS investigators to view them as likely black project craft.

I don't really hold NIDS in much esteem, if I'm honest, but thanks for the poke, I'm looking at some of their stuff right now, and it is at least adding to my list of sightings/locations.

Several of the sightings I've been looking at are indeed by police officers - retired and active duty, and I've yet to find one that does not read very similarly to the Duluth/Two Harbours sighting I quoted from Comfortably Numb in my initial post today.

Which reads to me very much like a sighting of a C5 at night.

"Usually these are seen on flight paths connecting certain USAF bases, which led the NIDS investigators to view them as likely black project craft."

Well. Quite. Is there anywhere a list of 'certain USAF bases' involved, becasue looking at which units where deployed there and when might be very informative. Do you know of the source for that observation?

As to the lights, I again urge you to look at night flying video's of C5's.

Like this youtube video showing C5 lights at night.

When the landing gear is down, the gear bays are illuminated and appear cavernous - though that's not shown in the linked video.

Apologies, looking through online info I see that it was a different Bruce, a geologist called Bruce Cornet. The following seems a useful summary of the history:

https://hvmag.com/life-style/they-came-from-pine-bush/

Looks like things went quieter after one of the central figures died and also after access was blocked to the main 'skywatch' site.

Cool, I haven't seen that site, though from what you say it contains similar information to what I've picked up elsewhere. I'll get a cup of coffee and give it a browse - cheers!

Ah, yes, Bruce Cornet...

It's his video of the 'shape shifting Hudson Valley UFO's that sound exactly like conventional aircraft but aren't!' that led me here in the first place, when I first came across them back in about 2015!
 
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BS3

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I don't really hold NIDS in much esteem, if I'm honest, but thanks for the poke, I'm looking at some of their stuff right now, and it is at least adding to my list of sightings/locations.

Several of the sightings I've been looking at are indeed by police officers - retired and active duty, and I've yet to find one that does not read very similarly to the Duluth/Two Harbours sighting I quoted from Comfortably Numb in my initial post today.

Which reads to me very much like a sighting of a C5 at night.

"Usually these are seen on flight paths connecting certain USAF bases, which led the NIDS investigators to view them as likely black project craft."

Well. Quite. Is there anywhere a list of 'certain USAF bases' involved, becasue looking at which units where deployed there and when might be very informative. Do you know of the source for that observation?

As to the lights, I again urge you to look at night flying video's of C5's.

Like this youtube video showing C5 lights at night.

When the landing gear is down, the gear bays are illuminated and appear cavernous - though that's not shown in the linked video.



Cool, I haven't seen that site, though from what you say it contains similar information to what I've picked up elsewhere. I'll get a cup of coffee and give it a browse - cheers!

Ah, yes, Bruce Cornet...

It's his video of the 'shape shifting Hudson Valley UFO's that sound exactly like conventional aircraft but aren't!' that led me here in the first place, when I first came across them back in about 2015!

I think I remember seeing them in...oh, the early Internet era. Lots of photographs of things that looked remarkably like plane lights. I think things went off into High Strangeness territory at various times with claims of seeing shadowy figures etc.

Somewhat surprisingly the core skywatching group still seems to be going, although it looks like the area around the main site has become suburbanised.
 

BeardSprite

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Yeah, I've been following the locations in that link you posted on Google Maps as I read. I got the impression that it hasn't changed that much between now and the 1995 sighting it opens with - a broadly dispersed suburban area, sticking close to roads through mostly wooded areas.

Not that that sighting - 'an illuminated feris wheel in the sky' - is something that could readily be pinned on terrestrial aircraft :cool:

That article also contained the throw away line, in it's 'it's not the military' bit "Yes, the Stealth bomber was tested at Stewart before it was made public."!!!!

The B2 is a 'silent, flying triangle'. I thought all of its development and reveals happened over in California (about as far from the Hudson Valley as you can get and still be in the 'lower 48'.

A cursory search tallies with my initial thoughts, time for more digging!
 

BS3

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If the B2 was tested at Stewart, that's a substantial chunk of the better Hudson Valley / Pine Bush sightings right there, I think.

I seem to remember Night Siege talking about the possibility of experimental, possibly CIA-operated, aircraft being involved but it was very much in the sense of a distraction from the 'real' UFOs.
 

BeardSprite

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a broadly dispersed suburban area, sticking close to roads through mostly wooded areas.

It occurs to me that this remark could apply to pretty much the entire Pine Bush/Hudson Valley region!

If the B2 was tested at Stewart, that's a substantial chunk of the better Hudson Valley / Pine Bush sightings right there, I think.

I'm standing by my initial C5 supposition for now.

I haven't found anything that suggests the B2 was tested or operational , even briefly at Stewart ANG - hardly surprising, I imagine it'll take more than just under an hour to find such info!

The B2 had its first publically acknowledged flight in mid 1989, and I doubt it flew much before then - the design was only selected in 80-81, and it takes considerable time to get something to a point where it can be flown consistently, even in secret - especially with something as exotic as the B2. This would put it out of the running for the most active period of the Hudson Valley activity (1982-1986), and it would have been better known in the early 90's period of activity, thanks to it's deployment over Kosovo and the Gulf War.

The lights on a C5 are more than capable of appearing as a flying triangle - the attached picture is grabbed from the video I linked in my earlier post (#351).

Now, please excuse me, ADS-B (and my ears!) tells me that there is an Agusta Westland AW109 (wikipedia link) about to pass directly overhead.

I think they're on to me!
 

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Carl Grove

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I don't really hold NIDS in much esteem, if I'm honest, but thanks for the poke, I'm looking at some of their stuff right now, and it is at least adding to my list of sightings/locations.

Several of the sightings I've been looking at are indeed by police officers - retired and active duty, and I've yet to find one that does not read very similarly to the Duluth/Two Harbours sighting I quoted from Comfortably Numb in my initial post today.

Which reads to me very much like a sighting of a C5 at night.

"Usually these are seen on flight paths connecting certain USAF bases, which led the NIDS investigators to view them as likely black project craft."

Well. Quite. Is there anywhere a list of 'certain USAF bases' involved, becasue looking at which units where deployed there and when might be very informative. Do you know of the source for that observation?

As to the lights, I again urge you to look at night flying video's of C5's.

Like this youtube video showing C5 lights at night.

When the landing gear is down, the gear bays are illuminated and appear cavernous - though that's not shown in the linked video.



Cool, I haven't seen that site, though from what you say it contains similar information to what I've picked up elsewhere. I'll get a cup of coffee and give it a browse - cheers!

Ah, yes, Bruce Cornet...

It's his video of the 'shape shifting Hudson Valley UFO's that sound exactly like conventional aircraft but aren't!' that led me here in the first place, when I first came across them back in about 2015!
Here's a copy of the NIDs report:
 

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BS3

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It occurs to me that this remark could apply to pretty much the entire Pine Bush/Hudson Valley region!



I'm standing by my initial C5 supposition for now.

I haven't found anything that suggests the B2 was tested or operational , even briefly at Stewart ANG - hardly surprising, I imagine it'll take more than just under an hour to find such info!

The B2 had its first publically acknowledged flight in mid 1989, and I doubt it flew much before then - the design was only selected in 80-81, and it takes considerable time to get something to a point where it can be flown consistently, even in secret - especially with something as exotic as the B2. This would put it out of the running for the most active period of the Hudson Valley activity (1982-1986), and it would have been better known in the early 90's period of activity, thanks to it's deployment over Kosovo and the Gulf War.

The lights on a C5 are more than capable of appearing as a flying triangle - the attached picture is grabbed from the video I linked in my earlier post (#351).

Now, please excuse me, ADS-B (and my ears!) tells me that there is an Agusta Westland AW109 (wikipedia link) about to pass directly overhead.

I think they're on to me!

Some of the early Hudson Valley sightings (1983) really do seem like they could be explained by a group of microlights, as was suggested not long afterwards. For example the sighting by Denis Fleming on March 24 (p 36-37 of Night Siege); Fleming saw the same object reported by several others over the Taconic Parkway, commenting that it was "silent", but on Fleming's return to his home in a much quieter area, he saw it again and "heard the object. It sounded like a very small single-engine aircraft [...] almost like the puttering sound on a motorboat engine". So, very like a microlight engine then?

You could surmise that a few mass sightings of the microlight hoaxers might have been enough to prime people to look for, and wildly misinterpret, lights in the sky they might not have paid much attention to before, particularly distant aircraft lights. C5s would be a good candidate.
 

eburacum

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They might indeed account for a few odd cases in the Hudson Valley area but there are many cases where the objects have been in view for lengthy spells, in static positions, with a configuration totally at odds with the Galaxy or any other conventional aircraft.
Yet none of these slow-moving giant aircraft have ever been photographed. Where photographs do exist they have other explanations; hoaxes in Belgium, or flares and flights of independent aircraft in Phoenix, for example.

I am certain that there are no triangular slow-moving giant aircraft (of terrestrial origin) flying in the skies of Earth, because they would be utterly useless as tactical or strategic weapons. Perhaps there are alien triangles up there, but they would probably suffer from similar limitations, unless they also have capabilities far beyond human technology.
 

Carl Grove

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Yet none of these slow-moving giant aircraft have ever been photographed. Where photographs do exist they have other explanations; hoaxes in Belgium, or flares and flights of independent aircraft in Phoenix, for example.

I am certain that there are no triangular slow-moving giant aircraft (of terrestrial origin) flying in the skies of Earth, because they would be utterly useless as tactical or strategic weapons. Perhaps there are alien triangles up there, but they would probably suffer from similar limitations, unless they also have capabilities far beyond human technology.
I think if they do turn out to be alien, they would certainly have capabilities way beyond what we have achieved. I seem to recall seeing a photo of one of the triangles, but all that basically came out was the lights. A dark shape against a night sky would be very hard to capture. I also recall at least one case where the object seen did shoot away at high velocity. I think somebody should do a thorough investigation of these cases. I also seem to recall a video made by one of the retired scientists who worked on classified stuff demonstrating an antigravity effect achieved by running a lot of power through a simple coil, heating it to near red hot until it rose an inch or two into the air.
 
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