Ultra-Orthodox Jews

Floyd1 said:
While this may seem strange, even odd to western beliefs, 'we' do plenty of things that they find abhorrent and in any case, far from demeaning women, it's actually the opposite- it's done out of respect for women.
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Floyd1 said:
Same goes for women only train compartments (used in Muslim countries).
Women prefer to travel this way as they feel safer.
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Perhaps the males could try not behaving in such a way as to make women prefer separate train cars for their safety... that would seem to be a lot more respectful of women.

/ I am reminded of a Penn Jillette quote
 
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kamalktk said:
Perhaps the males could try not behaving in such a way as to make women prefer separate train cars for their safety... that would seem to be a lot more respectful of women.

/ I am reminded of a Penn Jillette quote
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Sorry kamalktk I don't have control over the male population.

In any case, you're still missing the point (as most westerners do).
 
Floyd1 said:
Sorry kamalktk I don't have control over the male population.

In any case, you're still missing the point (as most westerners do).
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Not missing the point, I've lived and travelled in countries like that, been a Muslim for pretty much my entire adult life, was converted to Islam by a Pakistani woman (she gave me my copy of the Quran, which I still have nearly 30 years later), and did my conversion ceremony surrounded by 100 or so Iranian clerics, who were in the country to visit a Saudi built mosque used by migrant workers from numerous countries. I was the only westerner there.

When someone says woman have to travel separately for their own protection, you have to ask, "protection from what", and when you say the women prefer to travel that way in order to feel safer, you have to ask "safer from what".
 
kamalktk said:
Not missing the point, I've lived and travelled in countries like that, been a Muslim for pretty much my entire adult life, was converted to Islam by a Pakistani woman (she gave me my copy of the Quran, which I still have nearly 30 years later), and did my conversion ceremony surrounded by 100 or so Iranian clerics, who were in the country to visit a Saudi built mosque used by migrant workers from numerous countries. I was the only westerner there.

When someone says woman have to travel separately for their own protection, you have to ask, "protection from what", and when you say the women prefer to travel that way in order to feel safer, you have to ask "safer from what".
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Well, we know from what. Unwanted attention.

As I say, believe it or not, I cannot control the 'urges' that some males unfortunately have. Just as I cannot stop people being murdered, or cancer, or car accidents.

So, what is the best way to alleviate these concerns as best we can (seeing as they don't look like they're going to go away anytime soon)?
Giving up smoking won't stop all cancers, seatbelts won't save all lives - but it's a start.

Perhaps then, until such crimes are banished forever -in the meantime make it as safe as we possibly can for women travellers?
 
Floyd1 said:
Looking back through some of the earlier posts here, it seems that there was/is a lot of derogatory comments regarding Orthodox Jews and their particular behaviours for eg not wanting to sit next to a woman on a plane or train.

While this may seem strange, even odd to western beliefs, 'we' do plenty of things that they find abhorrent and in any case, far from demeaning women, it's actually the opposite- it's done out of respect for women.

Same goes for women only train compartments (used in Muslim countries).
Women prefer to travel this way as they feel safer.

As for not using electricity, public transport or driving a car et al on the Sabbath, again this may seem ridiculous to some, and 'going back to the dark ages' but it's a way to connect with God - (just like fasting at Ramadan, or Lent for that matter) except it's done once a week.

I myself have considered not going to any shops on Saturday or Sunday, just to try to be more temperate instead of having everything available 24/7/365.
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Leaving aside the issue of female safety, it's no business of mine what others choose to believe, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on those with different views - which, sadly, quite a lot of fundamentalists from several religions attempt to do.
 
It used to be that most shops in a locality closed on the same day. Now it seems more random. Most shops here are open Monday to Saturday but a few stay closed on Monday or close for one day during the week. It tends to be the small shops operated by one person.
Somebody did say that coming to Hythe was like stepping back in time, half in jest (I think).
 
Erinaceus said:
It used to be that most shops in a locality closed on the same day. Now it seems more random. Most shops here are open Monday to Saturday but a few stay closed on Monday or close for one day during the week. It tends to be the small shops operated by one person.
Somebody did say that coming to Hythe was like stepping back in time, half in jest (I think).
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I think a few hairdressers here shut on a Monday, but that's about it nowadays.
 
Something I didn't know: Haredi Jews are exempt from military service in Israel, due to their religious vows making them by definition conscientious objectors. AFAIK, no Haredi Jews were killed in the 7/10 pogrom, as a music festival and the secular kibbutzim are places the Haredi are very unlikely to be. Notwithstanding their strong anti-war views though, some 120 Haredi Jews broke with tradition and, in the wake of the 7/10 pogrom, volunteered for action with the IDF:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...ews-wrestle-with-whether-to-serve-in-gaza-war
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Something I didn't know: Haredi Jews are exempt from military service in Israel, due to their religious vows making them by definition conscientious objectors. AFAIK, no Haredi Jews were killed in the 7/10 pogrom, as a music festival and the secular kibbutzim are places the Haredi are very unlikely to be. Notwithstanding their strong anti-war views though, some 120 Haredi Jews broke with tradition and, in the wake of the 7/10 pogrom, volunteered for action with the IDF:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...ews-wrestle-with-whether-to-serve-in-gaza-war
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Them not having to do national service causes anger from some of the populace and has done for many, many years.
Most of the orthodox Jews don't work, as their job is to study the Torah.

A few do go into the army though (as do some Israeli Arabs as well). In both these cases it sometimes causes animosity from members of their families though.

As you have seen in my photo above of the two Israeli girls at the beach while doing their national service, even the women have to serve.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Something I didn't know: Haredi Jews are exempt from military service in Israel, due to their religious vows making them by definition conscientious objectors. AFAIK, no Haredi Jews were killed in the 7/10 pogrom, as a music festival and the secular kibbutzim are places the Haredi are very unlikely to be. Notwithstanding their strong anti-war views though, some 120 Haredi Jews broke with tradition and, in the wake of the 7/10 pogrom, volunteered for action with the IDF:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...ews-wrestle-with-whether-to-serve-in-gaza-war
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Also, it's worth noting that some Orthodox groups like Neturie Karta and Satmar Hasidim, do not recognise the state of Israel.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Looks like Haredi Jews, whose strict interpretation of Judaism prohibits them from engaging in any war-like activity, will no longer be exempt from military service in Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...thodox-students-military-exemption-row-israel
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Waste of effort really.
You can't make someone do a job they don't want to do - or do it properly anyway.

Conversely, two non-Haredi 71 year olds (one who now lives in Miami) re-enlisted after Oct 7th.
 
Floyd1 said:
Waste of effort really.
You can't make someone do a job they don't want to do - or do it properly anyway.

Conversely, two non-Haredi 71 year olds (one who now lives in Miami) re-enlisted after Oct 7th.
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That should true for all objectors then. Many conscientious objectors in Israel end up in prison. either none should go to prison or the Haredi should as well.
 
ramonmercado said:
That should true for all objectors then. Many conscientious objectors in Israel end up in prison. either none should go to prison or the Haredi should as well.
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Not doing your national service causes problems in life, certainly, but there are quite a lot who don't (other than the Haredis) some because of mental/psychological reasons, criminals, etc and around 20% drop out before completing the mandatory time required- but to be honest I'm not sure on the statistics of how many actually go to prison for refusing to serve.
 
Floyd1 said:
Not doing your national service causes problems in life, certainly, but there are quite a lot who don't (other than the Haredis) some because of mental/psychological reasons, criminals, etc and around 20% drop out before completing the mandatory time required- but to be honest I'm not sure on the statistics of how many actually go to prison for refusing to serve.
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Perhaps an option of community service should be offered,
 
ramonmercado said:
Perhaps an option of community service should be offered,
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From my experience, Israel doesn't have a problem with getting enough people to do their stint, but I suppose if it didn't make any difference whether you'd served or not (in job interviews afterwards for eg) then more people would (maybe) not bother.

For the most part though, there is a sense of pride in joining up.

Also, people get to go home regularly, and there isn't the same 'bullshit' that army recruits have to go through here during basic training.

I was on a bus in the Negev once and a guy doing his service got off at an army camp in the middle of nowhere and he had shoulder length hair and a torn uniform.
I'm not saying that three years possibly wouldn't be a pain in the arse, but you get my point.
 
Looks like they may have found a kosher pig that will satisfy the strict dietary requirements.
The Babirusa pig has both cloven hoofs and a secondary ruminant stomach to chew the cud.
Rabbis are still debating whether this Indonesian pig is truly kosher and whether it would be acceptable to interbreed them with common swine to produce kosher pork.

https://www.sefaria.org/Contemporar...l_III,_Part_I,_Chapter_III_Kashrut.25?lang=bi

pig.png
 
How can it ever be kosher? It's still a pig.
 
Mythopoeika said:
How can it ever be kosher? It's still a pig.
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The kosher rules apparently don't mention pigs per se, but outlaw the eating of mammals with cloven feet and which don't chew the cud. So eating cows, sheep and goats is acceptable, but not most pigs. The Babirusa pig is something of an oddity, as it has a secondary stomach and therefore possibly meets the kosher rules. As I mentioned above, it's still being debated, but the possibility of kosher bacon, which once would appear ridiculous, may become reality.
 
The taboo against eating pig-meat is quite ingrained, even in non-religious Jews. I remember a fellow-student who regarded a lick of a pork sausage-roll to be the height of daring! Yet, iirc, he had cheerfully tucked into spring-rolls, filled with prawns and - maybe - bits of red-roast pork. His curry of choice was chicken korma!

Yet bacon was studiously avoided and I doubt he would ever have ordered a pork chop, so I don't see this new type of pig opening up a vast, new market! :conf2:

There are Kosher and Halal bacon-type products on the market already, though they are made, usually, I think, of cured turkey.
 
oooh. Another flimsy excuse to shoehorn in my favourite expression.
’People who like sausages and respect the law should see neither being made’.
 
I’ve read reports that In some cases all it takes is a Rabbi to visit a warehouse & bless the contents for it to be declared kosher.
 
JamesWhitehead said:
The taboo against eating pig-meat is quite ingrained, even in non-religious Jews. I remember a fellow-student who regarded a lick of a pork sausage-roll to be the height of daring! Yet, iirc, he had cheerfully tucked into spring-rolls, filled with prawns and - maybe - bits of red-roast pork. His curry of choice was chicken korma!

Yet bacon was studiously avoided and I doubt he would ever have ordered a pork chop, so I don't see this new type of pig opening up a vast, new market! :conf2:

There are Kosher and Halal bacon-type products on the market already, though they are made, usually, I think, of cured turkey.
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It's not just a religious aspect - the geographical food culture and norms are twined up inside it. I am a Christian who is married to a (cultural) Hindu, we have Sikh, Buddhist and Muslim friends and family and somehow we all live in rural SW England**

The aversion to eating the items proscribed in one's tradition (religiously or otherwise taboo) is literally visceral - we cannot stomach it if we've been brought up to be averse to it since birth. Some sects of Hinduism and Jains are strict vegetarians, some more will eat dairy and eggs, many traditions in Nepal will eat chicken, fish and goat/mutton but not pork or buffalo meat (depending on caste/sect). Of course beef is never on the menu.

My husband on a rational level accepts beef meat is edible but his reaction to the idea of it being served to him is akin to mine about being given a nice plate of witchetty grubs, Kentucky fried kitten or a dolphin steak - my brain could accept it's protein but my mouth and stomach won't. We have to keep quiet about our general piggy-eating when his more Hindu-ey relatives are about, as they're all not 'supposed' to eat it for some caste-related reason.

For some reason many people from a non-Judeo Christian culture assume all Christians are rampantly eating beef all the time, and many I have met have been quite shocked to learn about Christian vegetarianism and similar.

Some Christian sects, IIRC also adhere to the general Kashrut dietary rules. Most Sikhs are veggie or add a bit of chicken or fish. When I'm not sure of anyone's dietary needs I cook Nepali Dal Bhat Tarkari (using plant oils) which is then vegan, dairy-free and gluten free so just about covers everyone but importantly still tastes nice.

So even if a cross-bred pig could provide Kashrut Pork, like you I doubt if it'd catch on - maybe with the younger generation?

Sorry about the long witter but I find comparing cultures/religions and noting the parallels fascinating.

And no, I don't get out much.
 
The rules of Kashrut are many, not just the food itself, but the utensils used and even down to any insects in your cauliflower.

As for the above mentioned pig, I doubt that many jews, even secular ones, (in Israel at least) would eat it, so ingrained is the belief that pigs are dirty animals that can also harbour worms, even when cooked properly.

Another reason that pigs are avoided, is because of the belief that their skin is similar in character to human skin.
 
I admit that I thought the proscriptions of eating pork etc. were based on ancient responses to the environment. For instance, pork would go off pretty quickly in arid conditions with little cold-storage.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
The kosher rules apparently don't mention pigs per se, but outlaw the eating of mammals with cloven feet and which don't chew the cud. So eating cows, sheep and goats is acceptable, but not most pigs.
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Yeah. It's not as if religion is filled with stupid, arbitrary rules.
 
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