These guys should have been thrown off the plane.
A leading Israeli tech company has stopped flying with the national carrier El Al after the airline moved women from their seats because ultra-Orthodox passengers refused to sit next to them...
I've witnessed Orthodox Jewish men moving seats on the London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly line on two or three occasions - I strongly suspect for the reason that gentile women sat down next to them. I suppose in some cases there could have been other explanations - but there was nothing obvious to me as an observer other than that a woman had chosen to sit next to them. And the reaction was almost instantaneous - as if the seat had suddenly got unbearably hot.
On one occasion the guy in question, who actually seemed quite angry, moved into a seat next to another Orthodox male, and loud-whispered 'shikse', presumably by way of explanation - which pretty much clinches it in his case.
But, you know - as long as it's the person with the supposed issue doing the moving, rather than demanding that someone else does - then...whatever!
Muslims who refused to sit next to women wouldn't be indulged and neither should UOJs.
Which is a kind of impressively high-effort way to follow the letter of the law, and not the spirit of it.
...orthodox jews can do things on Saturday...a kind of impressively high-effort way to follow the letter of the law, and not the spirit of it...
Jewish law apparently forbids the observant from lighting fires on the sabbath.
Amyasleigh, you're right of course. What seems from the outside like ridiculous loophole-exploitation looks different if you assume that there can only be a loophole if God put it there, and since He did, you're obviously supposed to use it.Though I'm not Jewish; I feel inclined to make some defence of such practices as eruvim -- even super-elaborate examples such as this one taking up a large chunk of Manhattan -- because as I understand things, the matter of the letter, versus the spirit, of the law: is a Christian concept, and not a Jewish one. For Orthodox Jews, the letter of the law is its spirit: God's greatest requirement of all for them, is that they follow the Law which He has laid down for them. This does not by any means forbid or bring to nothing, "rules-lawyering" and ingenious finagling to ease compliance with the law / adapt it to modern conditions and inventions: God is reckoned to be happy with His chosen people doing just this -- He gave humans a brain, so that they might use it.
Jews are the first to admit that they love arguing and disputing, and do a great deal of it. The linked-to article mentions dissentient voices among the Jewish community, about the exercise concerned -- as with Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who way back when this scheme was first promulgated: considered that the idea of a Manhattan-wide eruv, was taking the piss, and forthrightly said so -- the perimeter was thus adjusted, so as not to include his dwelling (as was his wish, I gather).
Non-Jewish people can come in handy on the Sabbath. There's still money to be made!
Amyasleigh, you're right of course. What seems from the outside like ridiculous loophole-exploitation looks different if you assume that there can only be a loophole if God put it there, and since He did, you're obviously supposed to use it.
Reminds me of a joke:Ah, yes, the institution of the "Shabbes goy" (Sabbath Gentile). As mentioned, Jews revel in disputing and discussing and generally minutely taking things apart: I gather that some Orthodox in good standing, hold that it's ethically wrong to employ a Gentile to do Sabbath stuff which a Jew may not. As the rabbis are fond of saying, "this needs further study"...
Two middle-aged men, Shmuel and Aaron, are learning together in the Beis Midrash. When they come to a break, Shmuel says:
“You know, my daughter is getting married next month. We’ve been learning together for years, and so I’d like to honor you with being one of the witnesses at the ceremony.”
At this, Aaron looks a little embarrased and says: “I’m sorry to do this to you, Shumuel, but, well, I’m afraid I have to turn you down. You see, well, I’m actually not Jewish can can’t serve as a witness.”
“What do you mean you’re not Jewish?” asks Shmuel. “We’ve been learning together for years. How can it be that you’re not Jewish?”
“Well,” answers Aaron, “I’ve always found the learning to be a great intellectual exercise. And, of course, I also like spending time with you. But, in the end, I’m still not Jewish.”
“But hold on,” Shumuel protested. “I’ve seen you keep Shabbos. You know that a non-Jew isn’t allowed to keep Shabbos.”
“Ah,” replied Aaron serenly, “you only *thought* you saw me keep Shabbos. The truth of the matter is that I always kept a key in my pocket when I walked outside. This way I always carried on Shabbos.”
“But there’s an eruv!” said Shmuel.
“Yes,” countered Aaron, “but I don’t hold of the eruv.”
I remember reading and being entertained by an article about the lengths Jews had to go to in, for example, hospitals. Jewish law apparently forbids the observant from lighting fires on the sabbath. This has been interpreted to include turning on any electrical device. Obviously this would be an issue in a hospital, so they invented a switch that is, in effect, two switches: IIRC one presses the button, but this doesn’t complete the circuit, turning on the machine; it starts a small mechanical delay timer which, after a fraction of a second’s delay, then starts the power flowing...
...As an atheist, my opinion is divided 50:50 between “How splendidly inventive!” and “Oh FFS...”.
I find myself experiencing more or less the same conflict. But, besides which, I would have thought that Hashem had much more pressing things to do. I can't help thinking - with all the shit that's going on in the world - that prying into the minor domestic habits of your followers is the Godlike equivalent of tidying your desk instead of doing your homework. Rather than loitering around the landings and sitting rooms of those nice people in Stamford hill and Prestwich - like some all-powerful but distinctly unambitious stalker - perhaps He wouldn’t mind having a go at sorting the fuck out of Syria.
Whatever the deal, it's still rude behaviour.
It is only rude if done in a rude way, and I have not experienced it being done in a rude way.
The reasons for moving seat are genuine and because the men in question wish to safeguard a level of holiness they have taken upon themselves...not just sitting next to women, but they would also avoid looking at scantily clad women or even listening to women singing.
This is done to honour their wife, they do not want any kind of temptation from a woman other than their wife.
It is also because they in general have been raised in an environment where they are much more sensitive to provocation than most on this forum...for example they are not accustomed to seeing images of women in bikinis..images that secular men would barely notice...but to these more religious men these images can disturb them.
I have moved seats a few times on El Al flights to help out these men, it really is no trouble.
A simple request, pickup my newspaper, and move to the row behind.
It is only a problem when people try to make a problem of it.
Pretty extreme [Jewish] sect. “Its teachings reportedly include that women must be veiled from head to toe in black tunics.”
Yep, that’s unparalleled extremism.
maximus otter
Its teachings reportedly include that women must be veiled from head to toe in black tunics.
Every religion that I've run across has some requirement in their extremist branch for women to be hidden, physically or socially. Sometimes they have to hide during their periods or after childbirth. It's not related to the religion, the bible doesn't mention a lot of what the ultra-orthodox do, it's based on later writing by commentators. It's related to people who have a disabling need to control women all gravitating to a cultural pocket that gives them the power to make rules. I'm continually astounded that otherwise intelligent and competent women go along with it if they have a choice. Would love the opportunity to talk to some without appearing to attack their beliefs.Yep, that’s unparalleled extremism.
maximus otter