Unpopular & Mistranslated Bible Verses

[ramonmercado]

It bears repeating.

You're just ursine about.

 

[Coastaljames]

The little city kids started jeering at his bald head and stung by their cruel mockery, Elisha turned around and cursed them in the name of the Lord. There upon, two she-Bears came out of the woods and ripped 42 of the little tykes to shreds.

Gotta love the OT.


Or is it the OG?

 

[Analogue Boy]

Didn’t we used to have a thread on bodycounts and casualties being reported as 42 in number?

 

[ChasFink]

My cousin (not a Bible scholar by any measure) once pointed out the following in Matthew 6 (emphasis added):

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name...

In other words the Lord's Prayer, arguably the most used standardized prayer, was an example of how to pray, intended to discourage use of standardized prayer.

 

[Coastaljames]

In other words the Lord's Prayer, arguably the most used standardized prayer, was an example of how to pray, intended to discourage use of standardized prayer.

The Bible is pretty much confusing and apparently contradictory from start to finish! This is why it is so fascianting.

My take on this verse - as ever, it's much down to translations...which is down to interpretation. "Vain repetitions"...is most closely translated to something like "loads and loads of babbling on that takes ages".

Compared with hours-long ritual repetition about very little, the Lord's Prayer can be considered as very pithy and a concentrated, valuable prayer.

 

[Cochise]

My cousin (not a Bible scholar by any measure) once pointed out the following in Matthew 6 (emphasis added):

In other words the Lord's Prayer, arguably the most used standardized prayer, was an example of how to pray, intended to discourage use of standardized prayer.

The most striking thing about the Bible to me is how few people - allegedly Christian , may apply to other Abrahamic religions - either read it or grok the simplest of God's requests therein. I'm included in this criticism.

 

[Coastaljames]

The most striking thing about the Bible to me is how few people - allegedly Christian , may apply to other Abrahamic religions - either read it or grok the simplest of God's requests therein. I'm included in this criticism.

Been the case for two thousand years.

Thankfully there seems to be very much a resurgence in what I call Biblical Christianity these days...going back to the book and The Word. Which make senses really. Go to the source material. Nothing is straight-forward in it, far from it. Very little of it is warm and fluffy. But trying to follow Christ without actually learning to know him through God's word is going to send you to some funny old places.

 

[ChasFink]

My take on this verse - as ever, it's much down to translations...which is down to interpretation. "Vain repetitions"...is most closely translated to something like "loads and loads of babbling on that takes ages".

Compared with hours-long ritual repetition about very little, the Lord's Prayer can be considered as very pithy and a concentrated, valuable prayer.

I don't totally disagree with this interpretation, and in worship (I'm an on-again off-again Catholic) I happily recite the Lord's Prayer with others. However, other translations do seem to more strongly suggest that it was presented as a model of a prayer - for example, The Living Bible:

Don’t recite the same prayer over and over as the heathen do, who think prayers are answered only by repeating them again and again.

 

[Coastaljames]

I don't totally disagree with this interpretation, and in worship (I'm an on-again off-again Catholic) I happily recite the Lord's Prayer with others. However, other translations do seem to more strongly suggest that it was presented as a model of a prayer - for example, The Living Bible:

I think I would say this.

Your prayer life should be more rich and varied than mindlessly spouting the Lord's Prayer by rote, four times a day.

It is good and valuable to pray the Lord's Prayer. But it is not good and valuable to only prayer the Lord's Prayer.

 

[Get Kraken]

Been the case for two thousand years.

Thankfully there seems to be very much a resurgence in what I call Biblical Christianity these days...going back to the book and The Word. Which make senses really. Go to the source material. Nothing is straight-forward in it, far from it. Very little of it is warm and fluffy. But trying to follow Christ without actually learning to know him through God's word is going to send you to some funny old places.

Even though I'll be happy if people take interest in the actual Biblical texts, I personally prefer George McDonald style hybrid of Fairy Faith, Kabala, and Christianity aswell as other hybridization. Just from an artistic and literary perspective. (Although nobody misses abusing suspected "changelings")

Fortean Times once covered the Woodwose carvings on Irish Churches. I love that stuff. My experience with Biblical Christianity is that that sort of thing is a bit taboo.

 

[Bad Bungle]

I think I would say this.

Your prayer life should be more rich and varied than mindlessly spouting the Lord's Prayer by rote, four times a day.

It is good and valuable to pray the Lord's Prayer. But it is not good and valuable to only prayer the Lord's Prayer.

Rich and varied prayer life.

 

[Coastaljames]

George McDonald

Thank you so much. I was not aware of this chap. Just did a bit of reading on him and I definitely want to explore more! Thanks.

the Woodwose carvings on Irish Churches.

We have quite a tradition of them here in Suffolk - https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/weird-suffolk-woodwose-wild-men-suffolk-2580554

In my limited knowledge they were obviously not considered taboo in their time. They are not there as idols to be worshipped. I always rather thought of them as an incorporation of local folk knowledge and representations into communal buildings.

 

[Get Kraken]

Thank you so much. I was not aware of this chap. Just did a bit of reading on him and I definitely want to explore more! Thanks.



We have quite a tradition of them here in Suffolk - https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/weird-suffolk-woodwose-wild-men-suffolk-2580554

In my limited knowledge they were obviously not considered taboo in their time. They are not there as idols to be worshipped. I always rather thought of them as an incorporation of local folk knowledge and representations into communal buildings.

You're in for a treat. He had a really fantastic world view and his fantasy worlds are enthralling. My favorite is his short about a werewolf lady but I'm prone to werewolves in general.

Thanks for the link. I think this line may hint at what I mean... "some defaced during the Reformation..." I'm wondering if the Reformation ideology is what I have encountered.

I suspect there's a translation issue with Biblical Christianity which might be better termed "Biblical Purity" here in the states. They are suspect of anything fantastical that isn't strait from the Bible. So it is either objective mainstream reality or Biblical. Very little room for all that exists in between (Bigfoot, aliens, fairies and the like all get lumped in with demons). Much like whoever defaced the Woodwose I suspect. This has been my experience anyway.

Interestingly, I recently learned from my history of Halloween book that it used to be American tradition to hang effigies of Satan on Christmas trees all the way up to the 50s. That would be unthinkable to pretty much every Christian I know of every denomination these days...I'm really curious about pre-60s Christianity in America because of that. Any history of Satan tree ornaments in the UK?
Found one (it says in Japan but that was common for "knee huggers" to be made in Japan for the American market): https://www.etsy.com/listing/910631...EjZrZLDg_FnR9hPSFGqaDAM0hn8LeWsBoCitEQAvD_BwE

My theory is German Americans brought Krampus to the states... descendants forgot his origin and just assumed he was Satan and thus started a tradition of Satan Christmas ornaments. Still crazy given how taboo that would be today.

 

[Get Kraken]

Here's a mistranslation...
Arch demons seem to be all conflated into one "King of Hell" so I'm gonna break them down. This is all from memory so I'm open to corrections.

1. The Serpent is literally just a serpent at least in Judaism. The Gospel may refer to him as Satan but I'm not sure (open to input) still along those lines...

2. Satan... One Rabbi told me Satan just means Misfortune which if you replace Satan with the Spirit of Misfortune in Job it makes much more sense than God gambling with his arch nemesis. ( I haven't seen this corroborated but I know there's much to be said for culture and the meaning of words and since it fits other Biblical tropes of anthropomorphic spirits like Wisdom being a woman... I'm inclined to believe there's something to it)

3. Lucifer is just a title for a rising star that shines bright but falls quickly . To my knowledge its used only 2x in the Bible. Once for Babylon and once for Jesus himself... the character of Lucifer seems to be an invention for Paradise Lost.

4. However Azazel is the demon who leads the rebellion against Gd in The Book of Enoch and is very similar to Lucifer in Paradise lost which is kind of anachronistic since I don't think the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered at the time Paradise Lost was written? Has anyone ever addressed this? Did Milton know something

 

[Timble2]

Here's a mistranslation...

3. Lucifer is just a title for a rising star that shines bright but falls quickly . To my knowledge its used only 2x in the Bible. Once for Babylon and once for Jesus himself... the character of Lucifer seems to be an invention for Paradise Lost.


4. However Azazel is the demon who leads the rebellion against Gd in The Book of Enoch and is very similar to Lucifer in Paradise lost which is kind of anachronistic since I don't think the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered at the time Paradise Lost was written? Has anyone ever addressed this? Did Milton know something

King James Version Isiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, who didst weaken the nations! (In more modern translations it's given as Day-star, or Morningstar).(Probably does refer to the King of Babylon though)

Lucifer as a name of the Devil, and leader of the rebel angels, crops up before Milton's Paradise Lost, in the Medieval Mystery Plays from a few centuries earlier - Milton would be referencing these, rather than Enoch 1, which was then only extant in the Ethiopian church, and wasn't translated into English until the 19th century, the bits found in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 20th century are versions of the same stories found in Enoch 1. It's a pity Enoch didn't make the final cut of the western Bible as it fills in some of the narrative gaps in Genesis.

Lucifer as a senior devil also got a name-check in Christopher Marlowe's Doctor Faustus - which also predates Paradise Lost:

My God, my god, look not so fierce on me!
Adders and serpents, let me breathe a while!
Ugly hell, gape not! come not, Lucifer!
I'll burn my books!—Ah, Mephistophilis

(Off topic - I saw Ian McKellan doing this on stage around 1974.)

 

[Get Kraken]

King James Version Isiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, who didst weaken the nations! (In more modern translations it's given as Day-star, or Morningstar).(Probably does refer to the King of Babylon though)

Lucifer as a name of the Devil, and leader of the rebel angels, crops up before Milton's Paradise Lost, in the Medieval Mystery Plays from a few centuries earlier - Milton would be referencing these, rather than Enoch 1, which was then only extant in the Ethiopian church, and wasn't translated into English until the 19th century, the bits found in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 20th century are versions of the same stories found in Enoch 1. It's a pity Enoch didn't make the final cut of the western Bible as it fills in some of the narrative gaps in Genesis.

Lucifer as a senior devil also got a name-check in Christopher Marlowe's Doctor Faustus - which also predates Paradise Lost:
(Off topic - I saw Ian McKellan doing this on stage around 1974.)

Mystery plays are something I need to see. Never heard of them.

 

[Frideswide]

I can recommend Howes

https://www.bl.uk/medieval-literature/articles/medieval-drama-and-the-mystery-plays#authorBlock1

In the UK it's Chester, Coventry, Wakefield and York which have the most complete cycles. They are performed fairly frequently. It's a european tradition however, so depending on where you are and what languages you have you might find something to enjoy!

 

[Victory]

4. However Azazel is the demon who leads the rebellion against Gd in The Book of Enoch and is very similar to Lucifer in Paradise lost which is kind of anachronistic since I don't think the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered at the time Paradise Lost was written? Has anyone ever addressed this? Did Milton know something

From Wikipedia:

"The most complete Book of Enoch comes from Ethiopic manuscripts, which were brought to Europe by James Bruce in the late 18th century and were translated into English in the 19th century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

So based on the above this is intriguing.

But, Leviticus 16:8 mentions Azazel.

Jews were able to pray openly in England about 10 years before Paradise Lost was written, so Milton might have known from talking with Jews, with Azazel mentioned as part of the Yom Kippur "Scapegoat" tradition.

 

[Get Kraken]

From Wikipedia:

"The most complete Book of Enoch comes from Ethiopic manuscripts, which were brought to Europe by James Bruce in the late 18th century and were translated into English in the 19th century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

So based on the above this is intriguing.

But, Leviticus 16:8 mentions Azazel.

Jews were able to pray openly in England about 10 years before Paradise Lost was written, so Milton might have known from talking with Jews, with Azazel mentioned as part of the Yom Kippur "Scapegoat" tradition.

Unfortunately I don't get the impression European Jews knew about Enoch anymore than European Christians but I might be wrong. Medieval European Jews depicted demons more like angry ghosts than fallen angels from what I've seen. Even Azazel is kind of the angry ghost of a sacrificed goat. Most of knowledge comes from this book (and I haven't read it all): https://www.amazon.com/Great-Tales-...=1621625259&sprefix=Jewish+occ,aps,438&sr=8-7

I don't have time to read the whole thing but here's a Jewish commentary on it from https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/angels-and-angelology-2

"Although for a variety of reasons little trace has remained of the ideas upon which the Rahab legends are based, the dualistic concepts of paganism have nevertheless exerted a profound influence upon Judaism, and the concept of the existence of good and evil powers, contradicting as they did the idea of monotheism, found their way into Judaism through the story of the Fallen Angels. It must be pointed out, however, that the passage Genesis 6:1 ff., although usually quoted as the basis of all subsequent legends of Fallen Angels, has in fact little to do with this concept, as it later developed. Not only is the interpretation of "Nephilim" as Fallen Angels of a doubtful nature (see Num. 13:33), but the text contains no denouncement of the "Benei Elohim" who had married the daughters of men; on the contrary, it stresses that the children of these connections were "the heroes of days gone by, the famous men." It was only at a later stage, when the dualistic belief in the existence of evil demons had become a firm component of popular religion, that attempts were made to find biblical authority for this concept, contradictory as it was to monotheism."

It goes on to talk about the book of Enoch which should be interesting. Worth mentioning that European Judaism has a history of prejudice against Ethiopian Judaism and the two often disagree. Note the passive aggressive choice to dismiss fallen angels as a pagan dualism before discussing Enoch.

 

[Victory]

@Get_Kraken

Your impression is not correct.

The mention of Azazel is an integral part of the Yom Kippur service for Jews, European or not.

Enoch is someone whose knowledge and legacy are taught and discussed.

You wrote:
"Worth mentioning that European Judaism has a history of prejudice against Ethiopian Judaism and the two often disagree."

This is wrong on a number of levels.

There is no such thing as "European Judiasm" in any Jewish context.
Our traditions in Europe are in parallel ones of Ashkenazi (East and Central Europe, to an extent North Europe)
and Sephardi (Spain, Portugal and then after expulsion - Greece, Turkey some of Italy and some of France and some of the Dutch and English communities.)

There are localised traditions too such as Bulgaria and the Balkans.

The Ethiopian Jewish traditions are not subject to prejudice, they are another set of traditions that sometimes take a a parallel but nuanced path.
As happens with all Jewish traditions...geographically distinct communities have slightly different prayer traditions and ways of celebrating festivals, but the core beliefs and religious rules are the same.

 

[Get Kraken]

@Get_Kraken

Your impression is not correct.

The mention of Azazel is an integral part of the Yom Kippur service for Jews, European or not.

Enoch is someone whose knowledge and legacy are taught and discussed.

You wrote:
"Worth mentioning that European Judaism has a history of prejudice against Ethiopian Judaism and the two often disagree."

This is wrong on a number of levels.

There is no such thing as "European Judiasm" in any Jewish context.
Our traditions in Europe are in parallel ones of Ashkenazi (East and Central Europe, to an extent North Europe)
and Sephardi (Spain, Portugal and then after expulsion - Greece, Turkey some of Italy and some of France and some of the Dutch and English communities.)

There are localised traditions too such as Bulgaria and the Balkans.

The Ethiopian Jewish traditions are not subject to prejudice, they are another set of traditions that sometimes take a a parallel but nuanced path.
As happens with all Jewish traditions...geographically distinct communities have slightly different prayer traditions and ways of celebrating festivals, but the core beliefs and religious rules are the same.

Which branch of Judaism are you a member of Conservative Reform Moder Orthodox Chabad Hasids.... Neither I or my family members have heard of Enoch in Synagogue and the Jewish site I linked to pretty much dismisses it as pagan. Ethiopian Jews definitely have faced prejudice from European Jews just like Sephardic and Ashkenazi have disliked eachother.

 

[Victory]

Which branch of Judaism are you a member of Conservative Reform Moder Orthodox Chabad Hasids.... Neither I or my family members have heard of Enoch in Synagogue and the Jewish site I linked to pretty much dismisses it as pagan. Ethiopian Jews definitely have faced prejudice from European Jews just like Sephardic and Ashkenazi have disliked eachother.

I am simply a Jew.

Some Ethiopian Jews in Israel have faced prejudice from a minority there, which of course is reprehensible.
There have been tensions with the police at times.
But to say this has come from "European Jews" is a generalisation.
Most have welcomed Ethiopian Jews with open arms and this week is the 30th anniversary of Operation Solomon, one of the three main airlifts which brought a lot of Ethiopian Jews to Israel.
Israel now has Sigd as a national holiday and a memorial to those Jews who died leaving Ethiopia.

If you wish to continue this please PM me as I don't want to derail this thread, thanks.

 

[Get Kraken]

I am simply a Jew.

Some Ethiopian Jews in Israel have faced prejudice from a minority there, which of course is reprehensible.
There have been tensions with the police at times.
But to say this has come from "European Jews" is a generalisation.
Most have welcomed Ethiopian Jews with open arms and this week is the 30th anniversary of Operation Solomon, one of the three main airlifts which brought a lot of Ethiopian Jews to Israel.
Israel now has Sigd as a national holiday and a memorial to those Jews who died leaving Ethiopia.

If you wish to continue this please PM me as I don't want to derail this thread, thanks.

No worries. The reason I asked for branch is because I'm genuinely curious since Enoch is excluded as Apocryphal from all but Ethiopian Jewish sects even according to Wiki. So I'd be interested in a sect that teaches it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

Azazel on Yom Kippur is a place while Azazel as a demon is common in Jewish folklore and largely influenced by Pagans (Ancient Greeks) Enoch and Christians. Wiki has a little on it...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel

I would normally recommend more detailed pages than wiki but its short and to the point here so you can see I'm at least not alone in my perception here. That doesn't make it right though. Religion is variable and subjective.