Vampires

Imperial_Call

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Re: Vampire help

Chrestomanci said:
I have to write a essay paper thing that is supposed to convince people that vampires exist...I have most of what I need but I was wondering if anyone could help me get a little more...caz im kinda stuck...any help would be appreciated...thanks

Why don't you pretend you're a 300 odd year old undead person who sleeps in a coffin and can transmorgify into a bat. When someone attempts to dispute this, bite their neck ...
 

MrSnowman

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What about those two loons in Germany the year before last (or was it last year), who killed someone on an altar and drank their blood? I think the FT covered it at some point.

Oh, and lest we forget the incident on Anglesey a couple of months ago where a teenager battered an old woman to death and drank her blood, because he was convinced a girl he knew was a vampire, and he believed this would turn him into one, and she would love him.

Things like this remind me why I left N.Wales actually. :eek!!!!:
 

Yithian

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The German couple were in issue 157, I can't be bothered to trawl through my back issues to find the Anglesey incident.
 

gyrtrash

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Mr. R.I.N.G. said:
Also, maybe look up some famous historical vampires like the Highgate Vampire or the earlier one (Grange something or another). While somewhat disputed, both are interesting cases.

Croglin Grange vampire info here...

and here
 
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Anonymous

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Snowman X said:
Things like this remind me why I left N.Wales actually. :eek!!!!:
I hope you took a few boxes of your native earth with you. ;)
 
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Anonymous

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the "life" or undead cycle of the vampire

Dear folks
I am n o expert on vampires but was involved in a situation that was queried as one in Yorkshire. But it made me wonder about the whole vampire thing, for example--
There are "traditional "vampires who are dead -or undead --I should say who live in coffins and come out at night to find "prey";then they go back to their coffins after they have drunk the blood.
What happens next to the victim ?
Do they sprout long fangs and stop going out during the day ? Do they become vampires--in this case vampires who AREN'T dead in the first place. Do they then go round drinking blood--surely the place would be overun in no time and everyone would end up being a vampire AND THEN WHAT WOULD HAPPEN? It they died unexpectedly they would have a post mortem and would this be detected? If they didn't die they would have to keep drinking blood and stop eating? Wouldn't people notice. If they were cremated when they died then I suppose that would solve one problem.But the whole scenario seems a bit far fetched, not like ghosts and fairies who just flit around and get seen now and then. The vampire thing imp-acts onto the real world if the way I have described it, and as I understand it, works.
I confess to being confused but I was trying to work out how the situation could end up. This is not including people who dress up as vampires and want to drink blOod for some wierdy reason of their own but nothing supernatural.

Barbara
 

many_angled_one

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The idea is that the vampire has to drain the victim of blood to the point of death and then give he or she some of it's own blood to drink. After he or she dies it is reborn as a vampire. At least thats how it works in literature Dracula-type vampires.
 
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Anonymous

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Hmmmmm....

You'd be better off doing your paper on tuburculosis in the post-colonial New England states. Victims of this "consumption" were often mistaken for vampires. People were buried alive, graves were desecrated, crazy cures and remedies were legion.

Plus, as an added bonus, it REALLY happened!


Trace Mann
 

Quetzelcoatl

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Re: Vampire help

Chrestomanci said:
I have to write a essay paper thing that is supposed to convince people that vampires exist...I have most of what I need but I was wondering if anyone could help me get a little more...caz im kinda stuck...any help would be appreciated...thanks
you need to define your terms.

if we are talking about the Undead who can turn into bats but brick it at the sight of garlic, your going to have a tough time convincing anyone that such beings exist, or ever did. Fascinating legends notwithstanding.

but drinking human blood to imbue the drinker with supernatural powers? Another matter.

from Africa through India (the Thuggee and certain followers of Kali), Haiti, South Americal and New Guinae (SP?) cannibals, all firmly believed that drinking blood or eating human flesh would either imbue them with the strength of their victims or help them perform supernatural feats.

and you must of course quote Mel Brooks in his famous conversation with Van Helsing...

"Is she alive?"

"No"

"Is she dead?"

"No"

"What is she?"

"She is Nosferatu"

"She's Italian?"
 
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Anonymous

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different types of vampire

I still think there is some lack of focus and proper research into what a vampire actually is.
Where did the first vampire come from to set it all off ? If traditional vampires, the ones who come out of their coffins in search of a victim to drink blood from, exist at all, what actually happens ? Do they continue indefinetely if not staked by some intrepid vampire hunter ? The practicalities of the situation make it difficult to swallow__haha-joke!
SOON THE VAMPIRE WOULD RUN OUT OF VICTIMS so what would happen then? All his/her victims would also have become vampires and need to drink blood. Soon we would be overun with vampires. It simply does not make sense.
What would happen to the "newly made" vampires who are actually still alive, and also, where did the first undead vampire come from it its coffin?
All these people who had become vampires would grow long teeth and look a bit odd and if they couldn't go out in the daylight their families would soon start asking questions.
People have gone on about vampires this and vampires that but no one seems to have thought the process through. If someone could given me some well researched,proven evidence of the way this type of vampire manages to "operate" I would be interested to hear it.

Surely if we were so beset by vampires someone would have noticed all these people going missing by now--in mysterious circumstances. if this is simply a superstitious folk myth where does it leave all those engaged in hunting the beast?

There are another group I believe called vampiroids who are ordinary people--I mean living human beings--who have a craving to drink blood. Horrid as this sounds, at least it may be true as there's nowt so queer as folk......
But I am nore interested in the vampiric undead in the traditional sense and how their existence can be explained and/or given a hypothesis as to how they might actually be proved to exist--why,how,where,etc,


Barbara
 

Quetzelcoatl

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Re: different types of vampire

barbara green said:
Where did the first vampire come from to set it all off ?
[/B]

out of fiction, clearly. But born of such reality as Vlad the Impaler and Giles de Raise. Laughing monsters so inhuman that the people who had to live around them believed that their blood lust would sustain from beyond the grave. Something turned into a more elegant legend by vampire writers for over 100 years.


But I am nore interested in the vampiric undead in the traditional sense and how their existence can be explained and/or given a hypothesis as to how they might actually be proved to exist--why,how,where,etc,
Barbara


"I rode a tank, held a General rank, when the Blitzkrieg reigned, and the bodies stank. Let me please introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

might the undead not mean those who dont die, but those who return, again and again, to wreck mayhem upon humanity?

a kind of negative Boddisatvah?
 
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Anonymous

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You called...?

The Hero with a Thousand Faces must always have his Nemesis, but sometimes you can't tell which is which until it's too late.
 
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Anonymous

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are vampires real?

Dear Ethelred (not the unready I hope!)

Do I understand you to be saying that the traditional vampire is not an undead creature coming out of its coffin in the middle of the night lurking around for victims to bite? Have you read Montague Summers? I did some years ago--I believe he believed the whole scenario as told by the peasantry of Europe of the time--I can understand poverty stricken uneducated peasants getting these ideas and a myth springing up. But in view of the big vampire scene these days
where does that leave us? Between those who say vampires as above, are for real and must be hunted down and steaked and the other group of people who are well and truly in the land of the living and just like "playing vampires" and drinking blood to prove it.

I am trying to pin down the situation here by asking for a c ritical appraisal of the vampire---
Are traditional vampires for real--if so then this validates the position of those who "hunt them"
If not, then are these people deluded or what?

(I am not really concerned with the blood drinking "vampiroids" here--that is another matter,maybe for a psychatric interpretation
--though I suppose everyone is entitled to their hobbies provided it doesn't harm other people ! )

So can anytone give me any answers. So far the supernatural vampire seems, as Ethelred has said, to have been the creation of Dracula type films based on rather nasty European folklore,

Barbara
 

Jerry_B

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First of all - the Groglin Vampire story is a very tall tale (read: fake).

Secondly, vampires in Rumanian and Hungarian folklore are for the most part nothing like their counterparts in popular culture. They are often seen as portents of disease, death, and/or sinful behaviour. Vampires tend to attack members of their own family, so in some way they are like a vengeful ghost, a revenant. Thirdly, the way they bite is not with a set of useful fangs (the trademark of the vampire in popular culture). Instead, they tend to gnaw at the throat of their victims using the incisors on one side of their mouth - not both. But overall, the main attributes of the vampire to those Eastern European cultures that gave birth to it is one of death and ill-omen. Much like the Black Dog legends in England.

Modern 'vampires' are very very far removed from the context in which they originally existed. Obviously the romanticised version which developed from the minds of certain writers strikes a psychological/psychosexual chord with some people. This is more to do with a sense of morbidity and gothic romanticsm, as well as (it could be argued) confused ideas about sexuality. There may be a slight sado-masochistic tinge to it some of it too - after all, the reality is that humans cannot imbibe blood in any great quantity, as it is an emetic.

IMHO, modern vampires and vampire hunters are chasing a fantastical construct that has very little to do with the supposed creature at the root of Eastern European folklore. It's more like a tulpa from the mind of Byron, etc..
 

many_angled_one

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Dracula-type vampires are fictional, invented in the 1800's. The ORIGINAL vampire tales are more of the walking corpse of a sinful person, adulter etc

Who says they have to kill their victims? All they would have to do is to take some blood from several people if they needed so much at once to avoid killing somebody, more probably they have a little meal every so often rather than a big meal :) Probably they would have special healing enzymes in their saliva that enacts rapid healing fo wounds as well, much like the leech. besides we dont know how much blood they would need and how long it would last them before they need more, it could be years between feedings.
 

Jerry_B

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That FAQ is a good indicator of the modern view of what a vampire is, and is thus wide of the mark when considering them in their true folkloric context.

WRT 'feeding', this is another modern factor. In folklore, vampires simply engage in drinking blood to hasten the death of one or more persons. They don't do it for reasons of sustenance. Part of their raison d'etre is to terrorise the living as a punishment and to make them suffer a slow death.
 
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Anonymous

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the FAQ does go a little into Vampire folklore from all over the world...
 

Quetzelcoatl

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Re: are vampires real?

barbara green said:
I am trying to pin down the situation here by asking for a c ritical appraisal of the vampire---
Are traditional vampires for real--if so then this validates the position of those who "hunt them"
as a Fortean I keep an open mind, but evidence of vampires is less likely than evidence of aliens in my view. Anyone getting surgically enhanced incisors and sleeping in a coffin should probabally have a word with their doctor. As should those of you creeping about the night in a cloak with garlic, crucafix and big wooden stake


So can anytone give me any answers. So far the supernatural vampire seems, as Ethelred has said, to have been the creation of Dracula type films based on rather nasty European folklore,

Barbara


like I said - Vlad the Impaller and Gilles de Rais, who is here Gilles liked to drink the blood of his victims. Both men passed into legend as the Evil Up At The Castle.

not hard for middle ages pesant imagination to turn these monsters into the Undead Blood Drinking Fiend of the Night?

most legends have some basis in fact - look at warewolves and the effect of the moon on the psyche; hence 'Lunatic'.

I reakon vampire legend stems from living people and, as with so much else, was given a romantic overlay by the Victorians.

now, if you'll tilt back your head, I have a present to hang about your lovely white neck...
 
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Anonymous

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nosferatu lives?

Thank you one and all for you interesting replies.
I think in summary what is being said that the coffin dwelling,night walking,blood drinking fiend is something of a fantasy being.
These beings need to be killed,because theya re undead,by a stake through the heart. Okay. The don't like garlic and crucifixes. Is this real or it it all a figment of someone's overheated imagination ?
This has probably started "life" in Eastrn European folklore as someone has said.
I understood that if you were bitten by a vampire you then became one. So a "dead" vampire bites you, and you then need to bite someone else? Does this mean you are then doomed to be a "living" vampire?
The sheer practicalities of being a vampire,living or dead, sound somewhat overwhelming.
Like most people on this mb I like to keep an open mind--if someone could explain the above I am willing to listen. I find ghosts , or fairies ,easier to believe in--they just sort of float by usually, the don't turn you into one of their kind if you see one.
I think also that by arguing about who discovered this vampire or that or who is the most famous vampire hunter, that we have lost sight of the basic issue. Do the things exist in the first place?If not then the entire vampire situation would turn out to be an illusion.
Also while we are on the subject wouldn't someone notice at the local graveyard if a vampire ws flitting back and forth every evening.
My father said it was a load of twaddle--especially when I got mixed up in a local "vampire" case and it got in the press !My mother said "we don't have vampire round here!"
Maybe they were right !

Barbara
 

Jerry_B

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IIRC, the 'vampire begets vampire' thing is not how things are according to the original folklore. Vampires arise because of a specific set of reasons to do with death/sin/etc., not because they've been created by another vampire. Whilst garlic and other strong smelling things are supposed to protect against vampires, the ol' crucifix and stake through the heart thing is another invention. However, fire, decapitation or reburial at a crossroads whilst fixed into the earth by one or more stakes effectively destroys the vampire.

Vampires 'exist' in folkore, just as UFOs, Greys, phantom hitch-hikers, etc. 'exist' in modern folklore. Whether one believes that they have a true material existence is at one's own discretion. But I'd argue that if somene claimed to have encountered a vampire that has all the traits of the modern ideal of what a vampire actually is, one would have to think twice IMHO.
 
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Anonymous

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First, define your vampire ...

I think that one of the biggest problems of writing a paper convincing people that vampires exist is that you first have to choose your vampire.

Most people have the image of vampires portrayed by the media, where they tend to be intelligent, romantic (to a certain extent) and hungry for blood from pretty much anyone. This image stems from Stoker, LeFanu, Byron, Polidori, and more modern media - Universal, Hammer, Anne Rice, "Buffy", etc.. If you want to convince that these intelligent creatures exist, one of the key concepts could be that they do not exhibit all of the traits of the fictional vampire (which can be traced easily to literature), but that they use the popular image to hide behind, because people will be looking for a cloaked aristocrat or a spooky Goth, while they look perfectly average. Remember also that the "rules" for the fictional vampire differ from author to author, so some need to kill, some don't, and most need to choose to vampirise a victim, rather than it happening automatically. Also, mind-control powers seem to be fairly standard for explaining why victims don't remember they've been attacked, or at least remembering the exact details of the attack, so they cannot identify their attacker as a vampire.

But the true European folkloric vampire is extremely different. Summers gives good coverage on this subject. IIRC, the folkloric vampire tends to be one cursed to the state by, e.g., being born with a caul, blasphemous behaviour, or just plain bad luck for failing to abide by various superstitions. However, once there was one vampire, they would tend to return to their family and friends, possibly drinking blood but certainly causing illness, and there would eventually be records of numerous coffins being opened to reveal individuals with the tell-tale signs of vampirism. These vampires seem to be explanations for plague and misfortune, as well as boogiemen ("follow our strictures or you'll turn into a vampire").

Then there are non-Western vampires, which is a whole other issue. And psychic vampires.

So, what kind of vampire are you writing about?
 

butterfly27

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Psychic Vampires

Colin Wilson wrote a fictional work entitled "The Space Vampires", based IIRC on the idea that certain individuals have the ability to feed on the psychic energy of others, leaving them quite literally physically and mentally drained. Its an interesting proposition. And I certainly know one or two people who quite unwittingly seem to have that effect.

Vampire Legends

Also, IIRC, the stock Eastern European vampire legends have been helped along by instances of people being buried prematurely (ie when comatose, because of an inadequate medical knowledge). Exhuming the corpse for whatever reason has revealed some signs of life, or at least no sign of physical decay, and knowledge of the legends has prompted the standard stake through the heart scenario to bring about the "destruction" of the corpse. This was obviously in centuries gone by.
 
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Anonymous

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dancing with vampires

Hi Delbert and Jerry,
Many thanks for your postings and views. I am not really into vampires but have crossed the path of a vampire hunter in the past , but as I don't want to be specific( because it will cause problems) I hAVE to go a bit all round the houses. Any one however can e mail me in [email protected].

The vampire situation I got involved with was local where a certain famous medieval person died of being bled to death. This=vampires!!
I did not worry too much at the time as I thought the hypothesis was interesting--there were other theories also which were "off the usual history book".
However, when I heard that my neighbouring villagers dare not go out out night for fear of meeting the vampire(this was on the radio) and blood drained animals were turning up all over the place...........
Anyway. I am quite comfortable with the European folklore thing--after all--hoping not to sound patronizing--these were uneducated peasants in many cases living precarious lives. with cruel rulers like Vlad the Impalor as neighbours.
Doing vampire research is not a problem. Doing vampire research and saying that you have personally met up with one, staked,decapitated and burned an actual vampire is something else. I am not calling anyone a liar or a deluded person.I would be interested to hear all about this, with documentary proof and
objective evidence. Also I would be interested to hear of the case histories with medical evidence of people who have been attacked by vampires and what happened to them afterwards. If they died as a result of the vampire attack then they would have had to have had a post mortem--but then they could not tell me!
I have not heard yet of anyone's death certificate giving cause of death as "vampire attack" though it may have masqueraded as something else--but surely the pathologist would have spotted the telltale fang marks on the neck?????
If vampires are running amok then surely we would have heard of all these mysterious deaths. I only know of one vampire hunter by name--but if vampires are proflifereating every time they leave their coffins then we would need an entire army of vampire hunters to deal with the situation?

Until I got interested on this thread I had not really thought the situation through. But it now seems quite clear to me that we need some objective research done in this field and to define the various "types " of vampires
so that we are not meandering on in a wooly way about the situation.

Bye for now Barbara
 

many_angled_one

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let me propose an interesting idea:

How many people go missing int he Uk each year? thousands upon thousands do, not all of which EVER resurface, sure some start new lives under other identities etc. What happens to the rest? It's as if they simply disappeared. I'm sure a colony of vampires coudl quite happily live ont hat number of people, none of which are ever found again.
 

Quetzelcoatl

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JerryB said:
However, fire, decapitation or reburial at a crossroads whilst fixed into the earth by one or more stakes effectively destroys the vampire.
it would have a discouraging effect on most people.

as for defining types of vampires, theres two.

1. The kind who live in movies and books

2. The barking mad (Vampire hunters also belong to these two same groups)

by a spooky Fortean coincidence, the following tale of a Type 2 Vampire landed on me email this morning...

On Aug. 10, 1949 John George Haigh, known as the "Acid Bath Vampire", was hanged at Wandsworth Prison for killing six people and dissolving them in vats of industrial acid. After killing his first victim in his basement on September 9, 1944, he drained the fresh corpse of William Donald McSwan of enough blood to fill a cup, and drank it. Haigh put the body in a tub and poured buckets of acid over it, when the corpse had been reduced to sludge, he poured it down a manhole in the workshop floor. He bequeathed his clothing to Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, where a wax figure of him was erected.
(Source - morbid fact du jour)
 
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