Vikings and the story of Questzalcoatl

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Anonymous

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#1
To all:
This is a point I have considered for a while. I wrote letters on it to a number of places, including the National Geographic, for consideration. So far, however, I have not received much response. I am providing it for consideration, here, to see if someone might have some information to add.
The story of Quetzalcoatl, in Mesoamerica - that of a white man with a beard, associated with the east, once visiting Mexico and promising to come back - is considered a singular case of coincidence. It is represented as a particular benefit for the conquistadors - bearded white men, who came from the east - in their incursion into the Americas. There are certain points, however, which might make the case less of an overt coincidence.
Along with a bearded white man from the east, Quetzalcoatl is represented as a feathered serpent, or a winged serpent.
The idea of Norsemen visiting North America in the past is, by now, taken for granted. They, too, were bearded white men, who came from the east.
They visited North America in their longboats; long, dragon-prowed, sailing vessels.
It is a commonplace, among cultures that have never seen sailing ships before, to depict the sails, in their stories, as "wings". Early American Indian groups, seeing longboats for the first time would, likely, have made the same connection to their sails. More than that, though, longboats were thin, long and flat, and had reptilian prows. To someone unfamiliar with them or stories of dragons, the boats could look like serpents. Because of the sails, they may have been thought of as winged serpents! In many cases, too, Viking longboats would have exaggerated scale designs, giving an appearance of feathers along the sides!
To someone not used to them, longboats could have the appearance of feathered serpents or winged serpents!
This is not to say that early Norse explorers penetrated as far as Mexico. But they needn't have had to.
It is established that Viking contact probably went as far as, at least, the northern area of the Eastern Seaboard. If they penetrated as far, say, as the Virginia area, though, they could have had contact with what are described as "Mound Builder" cultures, or their ancestors.
It is generally accepted that the "Mound Builder" cultures had a flourishing trade with the Maya. Many arrowheads, for example, have been found along the middle Eastern Seaboard, made of stone from Mexico. If "Mound Builder" groups had contact with the Norse, they could have disseminated a story of bearded men from the east, coming aboard winged serpents, and promising to return, to the Maya!
It could be interesting to look further into the relationship of the proposed arrivals of the Vikings, the presence of the "Mound Builders", and the beginning of the story of Quetzalcoatl. Even if current proposed times do not coincide, if there is substance to the suggestion, it could indicate a pattern and age of contact between American Indians and Vikings not considered before!



Julian Penrod
 
A

Anonymous

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#2
Not aware of any evidence that the Vikings got so far south (but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence...) and I don't know how the dates would work out, but it certainly is an intriguing thought....
 
A

Anonymous

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#3
This is a point I have considered for a while. I wrote letters on it to a number of places, including the National Geographic, for consideration. So far, however, I have not received much response. I am providing it for consideration, here, to see if someone might have some information to add

The story of Quetzalcoatl, in Mesoamerica - that of a white man with a beard, associated with the east, once visiting Mexico and promising to come back .
The aztec myth of Quetzalcoatl, does not have a 'Visiting' bearded white man, but a one time king of Tula, the Toltec capital, who is led astray by the sorceror Tezcatlipoca, and forced to leave the city, promising one day to return & claim his throne

To someone not used to them, longboats could have the appearance of feathered serpents or winged serpents!
The fethered serpent Motif first appears around 800bc in the Olmec site of La Venta on the Gulf coast. You can also see it at the Pyramid of Quetzalcoatl at Teothuacan, built around 300ad. All Feathered serpent iconography relates specifically to the Rattlesnake.

I beleive the Inca craft supplying the northern Inca outposts and up to central americca were sailed, though i could be wrong.

This is not to say that early Norse explorers penetrated as far as Mexico. But they needn't have had to.
It is established that Viking contact probably went as far as, at least, the northern area of the Eastern Seaboard. If they penetrated as far, say, as the Virginia area, though, they could have had contact with what are described as "Mound Builder" cultures, or their ancestors.
It is generally accepted that the "Mound Builder" cultures had a flourishing trade with the Maya. Many arrowheads, for example, have been found along the middle Eastern Seaboard, made of stone from Mexico. If "Mound Builder" groups had contact with the Norse, they could have disseminated a story of bearded men from the east, coming aboard winged serpents, and promising to return, to the Maya!
It could be interesting to look further into the relationship of the proposed arrivals of the Vikings, the presence of the "Mound Builders", and the beginning of the story of Quetzalcoatl. Even if current proposed times do not coincide, if there is substance to the suggestion, it could indicate a pattern and age of contact between American Indians and Vikings not considered
The 'Mound Builder' culture flourished from 1100 ad for about 2 centuries. there is no record of Feathered serpent Iconography. To the Maya, the feathered serpent was known as Kukulcan, as was not to become widespread in thier iconography till the postclassic, around 900 ad.

The 'White God' myth..

as far as i'm aware, There is no record of a Returning 'White God' myth in any mesoamerican society, until colonial times. insertion of this story can be seen therefore, as Spanish Propoganda, or an attempt by american peoples to make sense of the devasting defeat of their cultures by disease, invasion and genocide, brought from the east by 'Bearded White Men'
 
A

Anonymous

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#4
Didn't they find evidence of Phoenician bronze work off the Yucutan and coast of Brazil?
 
A

Anonymous

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#5
Well, the truth is out there somewhere...

I'd like to know how a copper plate found in South America shows Egyptian pyramids, elephants and lions on it.

I personally believe that we have our history totally wrong and that trade between continents existed waaaaay long before we think it did.
 
A

Anonymous

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#6
Quicksilver said:
Well, the truth is out there somewhere...

I'd like to know how a copper plate found in South America shows Egyptian pyramids, elephants and lions on it.

I personally believe that we have our history totally wrong and that trade between continents existed waaaaay long before we think it did.
yeah I believe that's similar to what I've heard, but I thought it was bronze. I mean, if they could period date those items it would put away any doubts but it seems that some "scientists" do not want to do that with curiosities. They aren't scientists at all if they merely make assumptions. What it probably could be was a period plate from the 18th or 19th century, but we can't know for sure without someone fully assessing it. :mad: disappointing really.
 

Mattattattatt

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#7
Quicksilver said:
Well, the truth is out there somewhere...

I'd like to know how a copper plate found in South America shows Egyptian pyramids, elephants and lions on it.

I personally believe that we have our history totally wrong and that trade between continents existed waaaaay long before we think it did.
You don't mean that priest which Von Daniken wrote about with his collection of anomalous etchings... Father Crespi...?

(quick google)

Sorry Father Crispi... all I can find: http://members.tripod.com/mainorg/hoh.html
 
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Anonymous

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#8
Nope.

I take much of Von Daniken's musings with a large skip full of salt.
However, I do think he may be onto something......what, I have no idea.

But there are just too many anomalies to disregard, surely?

Doesn't it hint that there may be something long forgotten about the history of mankind on the planet?
 
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Anonymous

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#9
Wasn't the bearded white man Viracoacha not Quetzlcoatl?

From Hancock, not Von Daniken, I thought it was Viracoacha who came from the East in a boat with knowledge of farming and other stuff.

LD
 

Onix_Martinez

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#10
lorddrakul said:
Wasn't the bearded white man Viracoacha not Quetzlcoatl?

From Hancock, not Von Daniken, I thought it was Viracoacha who came from the East in a boat with knowledge of farming and other stuff.

LD
Viracocha, Quetzalcoatl and Kukulcan are names refering, perhaps, to the same mythological figure. A funny thing about Kukulcan I read somewhere, by the way, stablish some relationship with a Celtic adventurer names Chichilcan. Perhaps a Iberian Celt, but I can't remember now. Anyway, for sure, there had to be a relationship between cultures on both sides of the great seas. I guess they just probed to be unpractical because of the distances, at least the distances in the tropical areas, by the way, to be something considered worth persuing. There have been reports of Roman, Chinese, Japanese, Maori, Indian and African evidences in America. The Vikings probably went as far a Brazil a couple of times also.
 
A

Anonymous

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#11
There is a Celtic hero from northern Ireland called Cúchulan, but I have never heard of one called Cúchulcan.

Anymore details on this?

LD
 
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Anonymous

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#12
Quicksilver said:
I take much of Von Daniken's musings with a large skip full of salt.
However, I do think he may be onto something......what, I have no idea.
Mostly, given the allegedly, credulous, not to say unscrupulous, way he tends to use evidence, in his books, films and TV series, a sizeable and steady income. ;)
 

Jerry_B

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#13
Quicksilver said:
Well, the truth is out there somewhere...

I'd like to know how a copper plate found in South America shows Egyptian pyramids, elephants and lions on it.

I personally believe that we have our history totally wrong and that trade between continents existed waaaaay long before we think it did.
There are lots of claims of ancient non-American finds across the Americas. The book 'Gods From The Far East' by Henriette Mertz, for instance, details quite a few of such finds (albeit those of Chinese or similar origin). What is needed is for all of these anomolous finds to be catalogued and re-assessed. Just to seperate story from evidence ;)

I also agree with what 4imix says about this subject WRT the Aztecs - alot of these 'myths' have their origin much closer to home.
 
A

Anonymous

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#14
Hmmm - the Chichilcan idea seems roundly suspect to me - The patternation of the consonsants and vowels simply isn't Celtic, in either a p- or q-celtic sense. As for it being Cuchulainn - yes, well, tenuous if you ask me, not least because Cuchulainn as a figure does not seem to resemble what I know about Kukulkan - he lived fast, played violently, and of course, died young. It all sounds a wee bit tenuous to me.

As for the quetzlacoatl Viking idea -well, intriguing concept to thing of the Vikings in the jungles of Mexico. I'm skeptical for many of the reasons already put forward by 4imix, but there is also the fact the the feathered serpent mythology is very very old, way before the time of the vikings, especially if we take the Olmec and Peruvian evidence in hand. One thing I would like to know more about is any efforts to consider the similarities and possible common origins of Viracocha and Quetzlacoatl.

Of course, the morphology of Gods changes, along with fashions and the rise and fall of cults- so a bunch of Vikings might have arrived in Sothy America, and bit beard and feathered helmets a-glint in the sun, might have given an interesting new model on which God iconography could have been reconfigured...but, of course, there is the matter of evidence for this, cause to do so, and any logical reason why a bunch of sweaty (presumably rather sunburnt) sailors would have been taken as Gods by those dazzling Mesoamerican urbanites...However, good luck with your research anyway - I certainly don't see any harm in deepening current research into Vikings in the new world - keep us updated.

Seeing as we're having a griping session about authors with big gold lettering on their books, I may as well chuck in my knebsworth at Hancock - nothing particularly against him, except that I find his boosk infuriating! He comes across a genuine anomaly in the evidence, something peculiar and bizarre (i.e. the diorite jars in Egypt) and gives it about two pages of consideration, before going merrily on to give us ten pages of infilling speculation! I find this maddening - instead of sticking to what he has, investigating what we know to be unusual in depth and maintaining some sort of empirical integrity, he's zipping back to the antarctic again. Drives me pure mad, so it does...
 
A

Anonymous

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#15
Onix said:
A funny thing about Kukulcan I read somewhere, by the way, stablish some relationship with a Celtic adventurer names Chichilcan.
In Yucatec Maya -
Kuk = Quetzal
Can= Serpent

Therefore 'Kuk-Ul-Can' = Quetzal Serpent (QuetzalCoatl, Coatl being the Nahuatl for 'serpent')

Please don't suggest that the celts came to central america and invented the Mayan language.

I won't beleive it. ;)
 

Onix_Martinez

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#16
4imix said:
In Yucatec Maya -
Kuk = Quetzal
Can= Serpent

Therefore 'Kuk-Ul-Can' = Quetzal Serpent (QuetzalCoatl, Coatl being the Nahuatl for 'serpent')

Please don't suggest that the celts came to central america and invented the Mayan language.

I won't beleive it. ;)
I never said that or remotely sugested it. Please reread my post. In any case, I was refering to Spanish investigador Jiménez del Oso, who was pointing out at a resemblance between the two names. Perhaps it's just the same way papillio means butterfly in Greek, while the same animal is refered as papalotl in nahuatl, the language of the Meshicas or Aztecs. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
 
A

Anonymous

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#17
Sorry, i was just being Facetious, io meant no 'arm, guv ;)

I'm just trying to point out that many of these links to 'Old World' cultures are tenuous at best. Though i am intrigued by the possibilty of precolumbian trans-oceanic contact, its my opinion that the 'Anomolies' that do exist (Thjough i am unaware of any being made availble to scientific scrutiny) are merely that, Evidence of Sporadic and fleeting contact. Until it can be proved that any contact had resonance throughout the history of the american civilisations, then i'm afraid we'll all just have to accept the fact that the acheivements of the american peoples are entirely indigenous, and not the creation of a White Super Race.
 

Onix_Martinez

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#18
4imix said:
Sorry, i was just being Facetious, io meant no 'arm, guv ;)

I'm just trying to point out that many of these links to 'Old World' cultures are tenuous at best. Though i am intrigued by the possibilty of precolumbian trans-oceanic contact, its my opinion that the 'Anomolies' that do exist (Thjough i am unaware of any being made availble to scientific scrutiny) are merely that, Evidence of Sporadic and fleeting contact. Until it can be proved that any contact had resonance throughout the history of the american civilisations, then i'm afraid we'll all just have to accept the fact that the acheivements of the american peoples are entirely indigenous, and not the creation of a White Super Race.

Okay, no prob. I have to say I am curious about you, since you seem to know this stuff pretty well and I don't think you are in Europe for some reason, and not because you list your location as Xibalba. In any case, I think transoceanic contact happened, but not often enough to have an impact on a cultural level or even a genetic one. Sometimes a bunch of sailors could get lost, some other would go a la Kon Tiki for a long trip and fin themselves somewhere nice, and stuff like that. Thigs like these could happen. As for the white race stuff, well, my moroccan, vasque, teutonic and nahuatl forefather make a interesting lot and seem to mingle quite well, so I have no preferences.

Cheers.
 

Onix_Martinez

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#19
Onix said:
Okay, no prob. I have to say I am curious about you, since you seem to know this stuff pretty well and I don't think you are in Europe for some reason, and not because you list your location as Xibalba. In any case, I think transoceanic contact happened, but not often enough to have an impact on a cultural level or even a genetic one. Sometimes a bunch of sailors could get lost, some other would go a la Kon Tiki for a long trip and find themselves somewhere nice, and stuff like that. Thigs like these could happen. As for the white race stuff, well, my moroccan, vasque, teutonic and nahuatl forefathers make a interesting lot and seem to mingle quite well, so I have no preferences.

Cheers.
 
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Anonymous

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#20
Onix said:
Okay, no prob. I have to say I am curious about you, since you seem to know this stuff pretty well and I don't think you are in Europe for some reason, and not because you list your location as Xibalba.Cheers.
He He, International 'person' of mystery, me ;)
 
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Anonymous

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#21
For anyone who has recently joined us, this link is to an earlier thread which discusses the First Americans and the possibility of early transatlantic (and transpacific) contact...

of course, no conclusion was reached,
as is only right and proper in these circumstances.
 

athyra

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#22
Anomalies

To add fuel to the fire:

In the South-Western US, archeologists discovered remains of what appear to be caucasian bones that far pre-date the supposed arrival of white men to north america. The tribes from the areas associated with the finds were demanding the bones back to be re-inturred, as is the custom now.

There was quite a bit of this in the news as well.

As well, evidence seems to indicate that mongolians were not asiatic, but in fact Caucasian. Hundreds of years of raiding China, bringing back Asian wives gradually ensured that the original mongolians were in fact out-bred.

Couple the fact that early Spanish explorers in the Azores discovered a native people telling of a catastrophe that doomed their people. They thought the spaniards were survivors from their same culture, and hoped the spaniards could decipher the strange writing on artifacts that they could no longer interpret.

These people claimed they were from an ocean going island nation which was destroyed in a catastrophe, before they were promptly wiped out by the spaniards. Forget which ethnicity they were, but were supposedly not the one you'd expect.

Add in the fact that several areas in the worlds oceans have evidence of sunken cities (the infamous roads into the sea, the underwater stone road discovered in the 70s, various other anomalies).

Look at the pervasive myth of Atlantis (Which I believe existed in some form, and represented a sea-going nation, or a composite of several different nations), etc. etc.

I think what historians commonly accept as "the way things happened" is not accurate.

I'm not a kook, but there is too much evidence, both physical and circumstantial, that there was trade and interchange between the continents far earlier, and far more pervasive then is believed.

Unfortunately most of the various pieces of evidence are discarded as curiosities, and little effort is made to fit these pieces into the jig saw puzzle of the past.

I mean, hell, look at how strongly the historic establishment fought against the notion that the vikings had visited North America, despite heaps of evidence, until a viking village was excavated in Newfoundland, Canada. I mean, hell, the original occupants of Newfoundland were not even aboriginal, in that they seemed to be derived from a mixture of caucasian and aboriginal stock, but this was ignored for hundreds of years. (BTW, these peoples were wiped out in the 1800s I believe).

It's funny... I've seen historians use syncronicity, coincidence, and a whole bunch of other "unscientific" ideas to minimize and discredit all of the anomalous findings.

My hope is one day we'll discover the one piece of evidence that cannot be discarded as an anomaly, to indicate that sea-going civilizations existed long before contemporary thought says they did.

P.S. Forgot to mention the cypriot ships containing, I think, bronze ingots from Africa that were discovered in the 70s. (It may not have been Africa, but it was from somewhere that contradicted the current world view of how trade developed in "pre-civilization" era.


**EDIT*

cleaned post up... I'm not my best at typing at 5am
 
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Anonymous

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#23
A Question of Resistance...

The population of the whole of the America's in 1492 has been estimated at between 70 & 100 Million Souls (Estimates vary, but recent evidence of high poulation in the Amazon basin leans towards the greater figure). By 1600 the native populations of both continents stood at around 10 % of this, the greatest demographic collapse in Human History. by far the greatest contributing factor to this apocalypse was old world disease, to which the Americans had no resistance. successive waves of pestilence swept through the americas like wildfire. Influenza, Measles, Bubonic Plague, Yellow Fever, Cholera, Malaria, and of course, Smallpox, were all unknown in the western hemisphere before 1492. Native Americans had No exposure, Little or no immunity, they caught the new sicknesses quickly and infection was extremely virulent.To the conquered and conqueror alike, it seemed as though god really was on the side of the white man.

So if there had been previous trade between the old & new worlds, why were these diseases so devastating? Why were there no rats or cockroaches (Good sailors Both) in the pre-columbain Americas? why were there no potatoes? Tomatoes? Chillies? Chocolate? (desirable goods, surely?) in the old world before 1492?

On the Question of Viracocha/Quetzalcoatl, could someone please explain to me what the similarities are? becuase to my eyes, there seem to be far more dissimilarities.

I'm not denying the Vikings got there fist, far from it. But their influence was localised, and they left no great lasting impression. The Feathtered serpent is a far older denizen of the Americas.

Theres a fairly decent site here with an overview of american Mythology,

I can highly recommend Micheal D Coe's 'Mexico' and its companion 'The Maya' for a solid background to mesoamerican archeology, and for a good fortean look at the whole subject 'Mysterious Ancient America' by Paul Deveraux.
 

athyra

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#24
Bleh I had a referenced post all typed out but a board faery ate the post. I'll summarize.

1.) most of the diseases listed are relatively recent occurences within the last 2000 years. Evidence exists that the truly ancient pathogens such as TB and syphilis did indeed exist in the new world long before exposure.

2.) cities are the main reason why these diseases were so virulent. But, you say, there weren't cities when the outbreaks occurred. You're right. Unfortunately, the Europeans themselves acted as carriers, vectors, reservoirs for the disease.

3.) If outbreaks in the past did occur, they would be local affairs, and none of the factors that contribute to spread of disease occurred.

4.) Cities evolved diseases. What? Hunh? City living causes a cycle of mutation and increased virility of diseases. First, a new disease emerges. It goes through the population, wiping out many. The survivors are more resistant. The disease strikes again. A variant emerges which is more virulent. Due to the previous exposure, the more virulent disease pretty much outcompetes the previous iteration. Of course, immunity builds up and this disease fades. Then a new variant emerges, far more virulent, and this disease once again explodes.

City living pretty much causes diseases to become far more virulent through the simple process of natural selection. Something akin, but different, can be seen with bacterium and anti-biotics.

5.) Different native communities seem to not have been that hard hit by disease. Of course, some were absolutely devestated. But anecdotal evidence suggests that there was some degree of resistance in some communities. Complete uniformity did not occur.

For instance, the peoples of South America were pretty much annihilated/nearly so. Yet the peoples of North Eastern Canada were not. Same with the West Coast natives. Unfortunately, not enough accurate records were kept except to say that populations were devestated, yes, but not that there was no immunity. See above for reasons why uniform transmission without the Europeans there to act as vectors, reservoirs would be unlikely.

Of course, not everything is 100% explained. But of course, the same occurs in the contemporary view of history.

**EDIT*

Expanding on a point. Take the common cold. Go back 1000 years in Europe. Although the citizens would undoubtably have had exposure to the various forms of cold, 1000 years of city have changed the virii so much that likely an epidemic would occur to rival that which occurred in NA upon arrival of the Europeans. Not only does previous exposure count, but the length of time since that exposure. One, the genetic mutation that conferred resistance may have faded. Two, 1000 years or more separated from the current iterations of the disease are such that the previous resistance would be of little use. Unfortunately, at the time there wasn't the technology to study this, nor was enough evidence collected to infer if this was the case, rather then a total lack of resistance.

Here we fall into a circular argument. There was no resistance because there was no contact. There was no contact because there was no resistance.

But yet that may easily be that there was very little resistance because of the time frames involved between exposures (due to evolution of disease or fading of a genetic trait), or other factorrs.

As well, keep in mind that some of the time frames indicated by anomalous evidence are along the lines of 10 000 years.
 
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Anonymous

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#25
Sorry, but in your second point, you seem to be suggesting there were no cities in pre-columbian America? :confused:


Smallpox: It is thought that smallpox may have been affecting human populations for 10,000 years. From about 3000 years ago -- on the mummified face of Pharaoh Ramses V of Egypt -- are spots believed to have been smallpox. Suspected cases have also been found in ancient China and India. In 430 B.C., a plague hit Athens during the Peloponnesian War. It killed the great Athenian leader Pericles, among many others -- perhaps a third of the population. Although the disease has not been positively identified, there are arguments for its being smallpox. In 180, Marcus Aurelius, Emperor of Rome, succumbed to some sort of disease, which may have been smallpox, brought into Rome by soldiers returning from Seleucia. Many soldiers also died from it. In about 250, a plague started in Africa and spread to Rome where it raged twenty years later. The next well documented plague happened under the Byzantine Emperor Justinian, in the mid-sixth century. As usual, we don't know what the plague disease was.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_smallpox.htm

http://seercom.com/bluto/smallpox/history.html
Smallpox, at least, would seem to have been with us for some time, and it was by far, the most devastating disease to hit the Americans

But you are correct that 10,000 or so of isolation would make the Americans vulnerable. Which is exactly my point, though perhaps from a different angle ;)
 

athyra

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#26
Yeah, you're right about South American cities.

Trying to cover both of the Americas is a bit of a task, considering that the circumstances were entirely different.

I'm not proposing some vast web of super intelligent atlanteans zipping about the world in fusion powered catamarans...

Just that there was contact/exchange between continents previous to the accepted view of history. Possibly based on "atlantis", a possible nation of sea-going individuals. No evidence exists for Atlantis in particular, but evidence of an "atlantean" people or civilization does. Or maybe not. I'm not a domatist, either way.

This idea seems to be anathema to the historical establishment (if such exists). However, from what I can tell, odds are such exchange probably did occur.

Hell, many historians (and history books) still do not recognize Lance-Aux-Meadows, the pre-columbian viking settlement in Newfoundland (discovered/excavated/catalogue'd etc.)
 
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Anonymous

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#27
To all:
To begin with, thank you for all the responses.
To the individual who uses the i.d. 4imix, your response was belligerant and thoroughly uncooperative. You reply: "Bla Bla Bla. White men with beards. Must be um gods. Um me prostrate my humble self to um gods. me poor stoopid native. Bla Bla Bla." You recount, perpetually, supposed references to a "White God" myth and claims of a "Master Race" myth. You, later, refer to a "White Super Race". You could try to stick to the material actually spoken about. If the individual referred to as Quetzalcoatl was, indeed, a Norseman, my statements no more painted him as giving the Maya or Aztecs or Olmecs or Toltecs or Inca the secrets of civilization than they depicted him as actually a winged serpent. I merely related the appearance of a flat Norse longboat to a winged serpent, and added the fact that the Norse were white, and came from the East. And it may be that the winged or feathered serpent concept may have pre-dated the Norse longboats, but they can have fit very well into the image, leading to a later introduction of the Norsemen as bearded white men from the east, into the story! You could, however, strive to be less fatuous and more gracious.
Your invocation of the idea of a “White Super Race” - apparently intended to coerce me from my direction of discussion by the threat of saying something “politically incorrect” - it raises an all but blindingly obvious question. For whatever supposed paucity there may be of officially recognized evidence of visitations of the New World, by residents of the Old, why is there, evidently, absolutely no sign of the Old World being visited by inhabitants of the New? You, yourself, say: “Just because the pre-conquest americans didn't have ocean going vessels, did not mean they had no sails!” Incidentally, there is little, if any, real indication that the Native Americans did, indeed, even have sails! And the absence of large scale sailing vessels is not something easily explained by their not traveling to other continents, across the equivalent of a Mediterranean Sea. They did have an intervening sea, between them and an adjoining continent, namely, the Caribbean. And, even if they did not consider traveling that distance, large scale vessels would have made trade along the coast much easier. And Thor Heyerdahl’s attempt to suggest Peruvian emigration to Easter Island, through the Kon Tiki project, seems to have long since disproved. That was an even easier trip than from Iceland to Newfoundland, but they seem not to have made it. Conveyances such as that seem as - frankly - significantly absent, in early America, as the wheel. The idea of questing or high adventure did not seem as prevalent in Native American thinking as in the Old World’s.
It should be mentioned that other topics, broached also by 4imix, and also built around an apparent core of a patent pattern of excoriation of the Old World travelers to the New World open their own cans of worms. 4imix, for example, invokes the affect of Old World diseases on New World inhabitants, who had no immunity to them. It should be mentioned that they, likely, had their own particular inherent illnesses, to which the Old World inhabitants had no tolerance. Why are there no wholesale tales of populations of colonists wiped out by diseases they had never seen before? 4imix asks why, if there was so much ancient trade or contact between the continents, there was no immunity built up by the native Americans. There, however, seems to have been significant immunity among the Old World travelers for unique American diseases! Claims of decimations of early Americans by foreign ailments may be somewhat overblown. 4imix likes to tout the apparently largely unsupported assertion that the legend of Quetzalcoatl was merely a Spanish fabrication, to suggest that the ancient Americans already acknowledged the Europeans their superiors; there is every likelihood that a number of accusations against the Europeans may have been overblown!
By the same token, 4imix also questions why there were no cockroaches or rats, often associated with ships, in Pre-Columbian America. In fact, there were cockroaches already here, at least certain breeds of them, and numerous rodent types. They can already have filled niches in the environment and prevented newcomers, in small numbers, from displacing them!
With respect to the reference to the similarity between the name Kukulkan and that of the Welsh hero Cuchulainn, the similarity struck me early on, as well. That that would have been as well known to the Norse did not seem likely, but it does further the speculation of much wider contact between the Old World and the New. It does fit into a possible, other, tantalizing possibility. If one wished, one could refer to the name Viracocha. Indeed, it appears as if that name was applied to many in Peruvian tales who were powerful individuals. The last two syllables do suggest a connection to Cuchulainn; if one wished, they could say the first syllables suggest the Latin word "vir" representing manliness or power. During the day of the Roman occupation of Britain, or even after, such a combination could have filtered across and provided a basis for that name. Precedents are not non-existent. The name "Jupiter", for example, presumably comes from the combination "Zeus Pater", the Latin phrase for "Father Zeus"! Combinations such as that can be perceived in a number of names from across the globe. Using the Latin “vir” as a prefix for a form of Cuchulainn, one can sense a relationship to the name Viracocha.
If only on the basis of depicting facial hair, there seem numerous indications of likely widespread contact between the Old World and the New, possibly over quite a long period. The web page, for example, http://www.grahamhancock.com/features/maat_methods-p2.htm, there are extensive photographic representations of carvings of bearded and mustachioed individuals, from Tiahuanaco to Monte Alban. Figures are shown with mustaches reminiscent of styles from Wales to Charlemagne’s court. Individuals with beards are shown in styles suggestive of locales from Sumeria to Egypt. Very tellingly, too, it should be remembered that individuals such as Kukulkan, Quetzalcoatl and Viracocha are also often depicted with blue or green eyes, all but an impossibility among native Indian tribes of the Americas, strengthening the idea of a European relationship to these individuals. While they are not blue-eyed, the Phoenicians could, likely, have managed a trip across the Atlantic to the Caribbean area.
And this suggests a root of the Atlantis story. There are many different supposed bases for the idea of Atlantis traditionally posited, from the destruction of Thera to the actual inundation of a small island called Atalante, in the Mediterranean. If cultures such as the Phoenicians - supposedly among the best sailors of the ancient world - had actually managed to establish small outposts in the New World, there is a real likelihood they might have been in the area of Jamaica, Haiti or Bermuda. This would certainly qualify as being “beyond the Pillars of Hercules”. In 1692, a town called Port Royal, in Jamaica suffered an earthquake and, literally, slid into the ocean! The town was built on a very sandy foundation and, when the quake hit, the entire ground shifted. In many ways, the depiction of the fate of Port Royal parallels descriptions of the end of Atlantis better than many other scenarios. There is every possibility a small colony of Old World sailors may have begun in the Caribbean area, been hit by an earthquake, and been destroyed. The situation may have forestalled further serious investigation into crossing the Atlantic, for these people.
In the end, as in so many things, it does not necessarily help to declare something impossible, simply out of hand, without looking at it carefully, first.



Julian Penrod
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#28
To the individual who uses the i.d. 4imix,
Hey, thats me :)

I'm sorry if i come accross as facetious, but to be frank, whenever anything to do with the precolumbian americas comes up, there is invariably a 'Fact' thrown up about White men as gods. just check the 'First Americans' thread.

The problem i have with the 'White Man from the east' story is this. Quetzalcoatl, in the Toltec/Aztec myth, was never 'From' the east, but 'Fled' to the east, promising one day to return. some say he took his followers to the Yucatan peninsula, defeated the local maya, and founded a new Toltec-Maya dynasty at Chichen Itza. the most common account of the legend is that he set fire to his raft at the gulf coast near Veracruz, and ascended to the heavens.

As far as i'm aware, there are no references in any survivng pre-columbian sources to 'White Men'. there is nothing in the monumental inscriptions. Nothing in the survivng maya codices, Nothing in the Popol Vuh Nothing in the Aztec/Mixtec/Zapotec codices.

Perhaps there will be when we finally get a 'Rosetta Stone' for the Inca Quipu. who knows?

The 'White man from the east first appears in mesoamerican literature with the books of the Chilam Balam, written some time after the conquest.

as for the supposed 'Caucasions' depicted on the Temple of the Danzantes at Monte Alban, well, to me none of the carvings are instantly recognisable as any race! they are all highly stylised depictions of captives, shown bound and tortured, probably for the inauguration of the temple.

as usual, i could be wrong about this though ;(

In the end, as in so many things, it does not necessarily help to declare something impossible, simply out of hand, without looking at it carefully, first
I couldn't agree more. i've spent a long time doing just that ;)

Ok I'll concede i was being a little rude, so i'll apologise. sorry ;( (Again ;) )

Before the conquerors came
there was no sin,
no sickness, no aches,
no fevers, no pox.
The foreigners stood
the world on its head,
made day become night.
There were no longer
any lucky days
after they came into our lands.
There was no more sound judgement,
no more great vision.
The great teachers never came again
nor any great priests,
just death and blood
and sorrow, sorrow, sorrow!

--- Chilam Balam
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#30
As a point of order...

Cuchulainn was a Gaelic hero, from Ulster in Ireland, and while there are parallels in Welsh myth, does not really conform to any Welsh character. I think there are many reasons why his reincarnation as Viracocha/Kukulkan is extremely unlikely...

For one, as a western Gael, he is not to be understood as a Latinate - or Romanised - Celt as with Erthir/Arthur. It is true that the Monastic system brought latin to Connacht, Ulster, Dal riata - but this was a language limited to the monks and scholars - latinate prefixes or titles, would never be used - especially for an ancient hero such as Cuchulainn. Cuchulainn's character was forged in the bardic verses - orally transmitted and sung in Gaelic. Gaelic was the language of the heroes, the Kings - the warriors. Latin remained ecclesiastical (and indeed, at times even gave way to Gaelic for the purposes of sermons).

Thus, it would be very unlikely to find Cuchullainn sporting a latinate prefix. Of course, we might invoke St. Brendan as some transmitter of the tale - but first, we must assume that he taught the natives to whome he spoke it Latin, and then reworked Cuchullainn with a latin prefix - why would he do this? And, more importantly, why Cuchullainn, and not the infinitely more impressive (and kingly) Fionn macCuill?

Who knows - as a monk, one would expect him (asuming he did try his hand at a wee bit of conversion - assuming he got to America in the first place) to try his hand at converting the natives to Christianity. But - and here is the but - why the hell use Cuchulainn, who was a pagan, a thug, a philanderer and a social misfit, who lived a crash and burn lifestyle and dies young? From what I know of either Viracocha or Kukulkan, they were patriarchal, fatherly gods - not upstart, reprobate spear-slingers.

Finally, I'd have to question the actual relationships identified in the name here. Cuchulainn is pronounced (in most cases) 'kuh-ch(as in 'loch')uhluhn'. As far as I understand it (4imix can correct me) the inca 'ch' is hard. There might be some similarity in Kukulkan - I'll give you that - but I don't see much comparability in terms of the actual figures in question.

As for Viracocha-Kukulkan - my reading is admittedly, narrow - as far as I understood, they are both very old deities, and both had similar iconography and role as patriarchial, worldly Gods - but maybe that is only a certain aspect? In any case, I am sure I remembered reading an article a good while ago about posited trading links between south and central america. what evidence is there for cultural links between the regions - if any? If none, that is indeed surprising...
 
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